Why I Am Not an Atheist

[Lynx]

in fact you said which is simply untrue.. the more people regress and become animal like the more they only seek hedonistic pleasures, you are right that, it is devoid of religion I'd agree with that, but I'd also argue against said happiness being fulfilling or even subsisting.. we are not ALL animals in spite of atheist assertions only seeking to satisfy basic needs, but I can understand why as an atheist you'd think so, and believe so. The problem I am having with what you have written is firstly it is simply untrue least of which to 'ALL' people.

all the best

why are you talking about hedonism? don't derail the discussion. i am talking about food and shelter and good health. everyone seeks these and if they don't it's because they think not seeking htis will give them a different sort of happiness. the point of mentioning little girls who cut themselves with razor blades since you missed it was that even in a state where people are harming themselves with obviously irrational actions, it is still for the desire to find happiness.

Not everybody who lives in a society does it for mutual benefits - many people who are born in socities do kill people and rape people - so from there your wrong that all people have the same outlook of what the "persuit of pleasure" is.

I was talking about the majority since you were talking about the majority when you said 'people will rape and kill eachother'. the majority won't because they know this will destroy society and destroy their own pleasure and happiness. hence laws against murder that exist in EVERY society.

Some people will hurt people to get there way. seeking pleasure and ovoiding pain does not mean conforming to a society which believes in mutual benefits.

um the existence of societies comes from the fact that humans know that living together = better than living on your own. you wouldn't have all the advances we know today if it didn't come through societal institutions. Hence, even if there was no religion, the need to create a society since humans would probably go extinct without one, is what wil prevent us from falling into a world of 'anything goes'. religion has nothing to do with it. if anything religion is product of culture and social thinking.

Furthermore I'm talking about indviduals - not sure where the society debate came along - that only comes about when a group of people decide that X should be the norm.

if no religion then humanity is in a game to do whatever it wants - including rape, kill and destory and if theres nobody to stop them then thats the way it is.

so when you said humanity you meant individuals?
i've argued that humans will not fall into a state of 'anything goes' where people are destroying everything. people will stop themselves .

 

[Zafran]

I was talking about the majority since you were talking about the majority when you said 'people will rape and kill eachother'. the majority won't because they know this will destroy society and destroy their own pleasure and happiness. hence laws against murder that exist in EVERY society.



um the existence of societies comes from the fact that humans know that living together = better than living on your own. you wouldn't have all the advances we know today if it didn't come through societal institutions. Hence, even if there was no religion, the need to create a society since humans would probably go extinct without one, is what wil prevent us from falling into a world of 'anything goes'. religion has nothing to do with it. if anything religion is product of culture and social thinking.




so when you said humanity you meant individuals?
i've argued that humans will not fall into a state of 'anything goes' where people are destroying everything. people will stop themselves .

Just like you meant Majority by All I meant indvidual humans when I said humanity. So the majority have to restrict certian peoples happiness (of raping and killing) by making sure they locked up or killed so that they dont hinder with other peoples happiness of massing wealth, building hospitals, going to war etc etc.

Your right society has advanced - we can kill people other side of the planet with a push of button - great persuit of happiness. Or even make nukes.

 

[جوري]

why are you talking about hedonism? don't derail the discussion. i am talking about food and shelter and good health. everyone seeks these and if they don't it's because they think not seeking htis will give them a different sort of happiness. the point of mentioning little girls who cut themselves with razor blades since you missed it was that even in a state where people are harming themselves with obviously irrational actions, it is still for the desire to find happiness.

I am the one derailing the discussion with 'cutting' and 'avoidance of 'hell' and 'All' you are slightly amusing I'll give you that. food/shelter and good health don't give happiness.. in fact to most who have them if there were no stark contrast with the opposite they'll not even appreciate them let alone elevate them to the state of happiness-- nice try as always you fail miserably short!

all the best

 

[siam]

"That decision to believe something because we wish to, without evidence, or in the face of counter evidence, is what I call faith." ----I would call that blind faith

The reason I make a distinction is because the Quran is against blind faith and superstition.
However, I will concede that human behaviour is complex and difficult to generalize.

Your example of a spouse believing in their mate, If there is no evidence of wrongdoing---then I don't see why he/she cannot be trusted (innocent until proven guilty)---however, those who believe or trust in a person even after proof of wrongdoing are (knowingly)deluding themselves. Maybe delusions can be classified as faith?---but not for me.
I agree that all these are nuances........but sometimes it is interesting to see our world in all of its color instead of in black and white......

 

[siam]

"...humanity needs guidence and authority - If they dont take it from the divine they will just go some where else - but still looking for Guidence - be it Buddhism, Kant, virtue theory, emotions etc etc. "

It is an interesting point---and I agree. I suppose that is why we make laws--they work as Guidance of the do's and don'ts.....

Animals also live in groups or "socieites" and some have a hierarchal structure and "rules". Maybe what makes us different from animals is our capacity for compassion and mercy? It seems to me, that unlike animals, we care for the sick, injured or disabled instead of killing them off.....even though, as a species, carrying "unproductive" members would not be in the interests of survival......?---though we also have the "animal" instincts----but again, we seem to go beyond animal behavior in senseless killing and purposeless voilence...?

 

[siam]

Science and Religion---In my opinion, all knowledge is from God, religious, as well as scientific.
Thomas Paine said---"man cannot make principles, he can only discover them." I think he has a point---and also feel that this discovery takes place because of God's will---though ofcourse human effort is also involved.

Muslim philosophers of old felt that "we" (soul) experience, understand and interact with our world in 2 ways, 1)Intellectually and 2)Intuitively. The data is input from our senses and the intellectual analysis happens in the brain(not necessarily biological---I am speaking philosophically) and the Intuitive data is analysed/understood by the heart (again---not biological). So science and religion are complementary ways of understanding the Divine, our "selves" and our purpose.

if anyone feels I am hogging this thread by putting up too many posts...my apologies.....

 

[Pygoscelis]

as i said meaningless. This just shows that humanity needs guidence and authority - If they dont take it from the divine they will just go some where else - but still looking for Guidence - be it Buddhism, Kant, virtue theory, emotions etc etc.

So then we agree that these Abrahamic religions are authoritarian and designed to control people. We just disagree on who designed them and if the overall effect they have on us is good or bad.

 

[Pygoscelis]

So science and religion are complementary ways of understanding the Divine, our "selves" and our purpose.

I can see where you're coming from there. Though I would replace "religion" with "meditation and introspection".

if anyone feels I am hogging this thread by putting up too many posts...my apologies.....

Not at all. I find your posts refreshing. And I hogged most of the first two pages of the thread myself

 

[Lynx]

I am the one derailing the discussion with 'cutting' and 'avoidance of 'hell' and 'All' you are slightly amusing I'll give you that. food/shelter and good health don't give happiness.. in fact to most who have them if there were no stark contrast with the opposite they'll not even appreciate them let alone elevate them to the state of happiness-- nice try as always you fail miserably short!

all the best

hm, there are different kinds of happiness. the kind of happiness one gets from reading a good book is different from the happiness that one gets satisfying his hunger or quenching his thirst. im talking about the latter kind. if this is still somehow unclear for you then there's nothing more that i can do. your interjection is irrelevant to the point i was making earlier; whether or not you agree that people all seek happiness is irrelevant; everyone wants to survive and the only way huamns are going to survive, considering how physically unfit we are, is through the formation of societies. aslong as you recognize the purpose of societies and their origins, my argument to zafran still holds.

So the majority have to restrict certian peoples happiness (of raping and killing) by making sure they locked up or killed so that they dont hinder with other peoples happiness of massing wealth, building hospitals, going to war etc etc.

yes exactly. there will never be a 'anything goes'. people will necessarily create laws against massacring and raping. there is 0 need for religion.

Your right society has advanced - we can kill people other side of the planet with a push of button - great persuit of happiness. Or even become socities and make nukes.

and cured many diseases, increased the average lifespan by twofold, secured an economic prosperity that is unrivaled, and advanced intellectual in every academic field imaginable. you didn't conveniently forget those, did you?

in all honesty, i would love to send people who are critical about our advances in a time machine back to the dark ages where they could enjoy getting sick and dying of simple diseases or getting robbed and killed by highwaymen. unappreciative people..

 

[جوري]

hm, there are different kinds of happiness.

speaking of irrelevant!

the kind of happiness one gets from reading a good book is different from the happiness that one gets satisfying his hunger or quenching his thirst. im talking about the latter kind.

'ALL' don't derive happiness from reading a book nor quenching a thirst -- has anyone seen ALL express happiness after having a glass of water? you are absurd!

if this is still somehow unclear for you then there's nothing more that i can do.

What is there to clarify? you've made an absurd statement and you're desperately trying to fix it as we see you so often do!

your interjection is irrelevant to the point i was making earlier;

You have made a non-point.. it is a public forum where it is fun to point out blunders especially the atheist sort!

whether or not you agree that people all seek happiness is irrelevant;

Quite relevant to the silly sweeping generalization you've made actually!

everyone wants to survive and the only way huamns are going to survive, considering how physically unfit we are, is through the formation of societies. aslong as you recognize the purpose of societies and their origins, my argument to zafran still holds.

You have no argument, you've some plastered drivel that you're hoping will simply slide by because in your mind you can't fathom that others exist and think outside your box.. it is fine, it is quite common and we wanted to point it out!

All humans have one thing in common: the pursuit of happiness

All the best

 

[Zafran]

So then we agree that these Abrahamic religions are authoritarian and designed to control people. We just disagree on who designed them and if the overall effect they have on us is good or bad.

Just like family, society, culture, emotions and even education system is - what isnt authoritive exactly. Humans will always call upon authority from somewhere.

 

[Lynx]

speaking of irrelevant!

'ALL' don't derive happiness from reading a book nor quenching a thirst -- has anyone seen ALL express happiness after having a glass of water? you are absurd!

What is there to clarify? you've made an absurd statement and you're desperately trying to fix it as we see you so often do!

You have made a non-point.. it is a public forum where it is fun to point out blunders especially the atheist sort!

Quite relevant to the silly sweeping generalization you've made actually!


You have no argument, you've some plastered drivel that you're hoping will simply slide by because in your mind you can't fathom that others exist and think outside your box.. it is fine, it is quite common and we wanted to point it out!



All the best

since you aren't very bright, let's pretend it's not true all humans seek happiness. This does not change my argument that people will form societies and the existence of such societies necessarily implies the existence of rules and order which means the initial statement that zafran made (which my whole discussion is being aimed towards before you hijacked it with your trivial objection) that people would do anything and everything without religion guiding them is WRONG. have a nice day.

 

[Zafran]

since you aren't very bright, let's pretend it's not true all humans seek happiness. This does not change my argument that people will form societies and the existence of such societies necessarily implies the existence of rules and order which means the initial statement that zafran made (which my whole discussion is being aimed towards before you hijacked it with your trivial objection) that people would do anything and everything without religion guiding them is WRONG. have a nice day.

People will do what they want to do - a society cant stop the people that want to rape and kill - even the laws and customs will have to be put in existence what the the ruling group calls happiness which is broad and open ie whatever they call happiness - It can be everything and anything.

Just saying everybody wants happiness isnt good enough - the next question will be what is happiness to those people who are going to create that society. They will always have people who will disgaree with those laws and customs as well.

 

[جوري]

since you aren't very bright,

This is actually a surprisingly adequate assessment of yourself

let's pretend it's not true all humans seek happiness. This does not change my argument that people will form societies and the existence of such societies necessarily implies the existence of rules and order which means the initial statement that zafran made (which my whole discussion is being aimed towards before you hijacked it with your trivial objection) that people would do anything and everything without religion guiding them is WRONG. have a nice day.

More nonsensical drivel!
you are yet to prove that any atheistic society has existed outside of recent times, and that such a society was at all moral as in didn't cause the death of 20 million or 15 million or five million..
of course there is no hijack here.. it is a public forum after all, although I can understand why you'd throw such a tantrum yikes every time you write you offer us such a hearty guffaw ;D

and thanks I'll have a nice day!


all the best!

 

[Perseveranze]

Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with everyone),

I think it's really misunderstanding to say Religion has no place in society today. You may not agree with me, but I see that religion has an enormous importance today, or at the very least a belief in a divinity and an afterlife.

Murdering, rape, stealing... That's just your average joe crimes, the really really really sick crimes, and I mean VERY REPULSIVE tend to be done by people who do not believe in a Divinity or an afterlife. They believe that if they can get away with anything in this life, then no one will be there to ever question them about it. (This is just an example btw from watching the Crime channel and doing some internet research, not saying Athiests in general are like this or anything)

And that logic works fine for them, but it's the opposite for the person who has a coincious belief that a God does exist and that everything they do in this life, they may get away with it here, but how can they possibly get away with it when they face their Lord? At the back of all their minds, whether their religious or not, if their have some kind of a subconcious thought of the unseen, this will definitly affect the things they do or how far they go.

Next, you can't forget that Humans have free will and with that they have Desire. All Humans Desire things, they are both Good things and bad things, things which may comfort them in the short run but hurt them in the long run and things that may hurt others around them etc. Unfortunatly, nothing is so clear when Humans are the judges of what is right and wrong, what is good morales and bad morales.

When Humans make the rules and are the judges there are many disputes, many flaws and on top of this, without a thought of God, people will still act as long as they feel they can try and get away with it in this life.

Bottom line; For the sake of humanity, Religion is and always will be very important.

 

[Lynx]

People will do what they want to do - a society cant stop the people that want to rape and kill - even the laws and customs will have to be put in existence what the the ruling group calls happiness which is broad and open ie whatever they call happiness - It can be everything and anything.

First, I am not sure what yuo mean by 'a society cant stop the people that want to rape and kill'; if you take away the police I am pretty sure the crime rate will spike...so people are being stopped by laws in place. Obviously not everyone can be stopped and I don't think either of us is making the claim that this can be stopped. It very well can't.

Second,what I am trying to say is that it CAN'T be everything and anything because many things, if they were allowed, would result in the destruction of society or result in a society that people don't want to be a part of. The most important thing to understand is that even if x is relative, it does not follow that x cannot be shared by most, if not everyone. What I am saying is that our human nature (i.e., desire to survive, eat, drink, etc) will necessarily lead to us to create societies which will necessarily lead us to create certain rules that, if aren't in place, results in the fragmentation of any society. It can never ever be 'anything goes' and religion doesn't need to be part of it.

Just saying everybody wants happiness isnt good enough - the next question will be what is happiness to those people who are going to create that society. They will always have people who will disgaree with those laws and customs as well.

Some things HAVE to be there such as laws against murder. Of course there will be people that disagree but that's why we have jails and social institutions to try and get people not to go raping their sisters...again I am not saying society will get everyone to agree on what should be done, what I am saying is that the majority will come up with a value system that is far from 'anything goes'.

 

[Lynx]

Asalaamu Alaikum(peace be with everyone),

I think it's really misunderstanding to say Religion has no place in society today. You may not agree with me, but I see that religion has an enormous importance today, or at the very least a belief in a divinity and an afterlife.

Hi, I don't think anyone is saying religion has no place in society. Perhaps you can point out who your message was directed to? (if anyone).

Murdering, rape, stealing... That's just your average joe crimes, the really really really sick crimes, and I mean VERY REPULSIVE tend to be done by people who do not believe in a Divinity or an afterlife. They believe that if they can get away with anything in this life, then no one will be there to ever question them about it. (This is just an example btw from watching the Crime channel and doing some internet research, not saying Athiests in general are like this or anything)

This requires a citation; I've personally read that non-religious (atheists and agnostic) commit less crimes than religious people (at least in the states) and I think atheist dominant societies in Europe have very low crime rates as well.

And that logic works fine for them, but it's the opposite for the person who has a coincious belief that a God does exist and that everything they do in this life, they may get away with it here, but how can they possibly get away with it when they face their Lord? At the back of all their minds, whether their religious or not, if their have some kind of a subconcious thought of the unseen, this will definitly affect the things they do or how far they go.

Well we all l see religious people breaking their rules all the time so I am not sure how much of an effect their beliefs have on them. I personally think most religious people follow their rules as much as a non religious person follows his societal norms.

Next, you can't forget that Humans have free will and with that they have Desire. All Humans Desire things, they are both Good things and bad things, things which may comfort them in the short run but hurt them in the long run and things that may hurt others around them etc. Unfortunatly, nothing is so clear when Humans are the judges of what is right and wrong, what is good morales and bad morales.

When Humans make the rules and are the judges there are many disputes, many flaws and on top of this, without a thought of God, people will still act as long as they feel they can try and get away with it in this life.

Bottom line; For the sake of humanity, Religion is and always will be very important.

I have no problem with that

 

[Pygoscelis]

Murdering, rape, stealing... That's just your average joe crimes, the really really really sick crimes, and I mean VERY REPULSIVE

What exactly do you have in mind? Rape and murder seem to me pretty repulsive. What trumps them that you think atheists are likely to do because they don't believe in gods?

They believe that if they can get away with anything in this life, then no one will be there to ever question them about it.

That would only apply to sociopaths. If fear of celestial punishment is all that keeps you from raping and murdering people, then I dearly hope you never lose your faith. I don't think this is the case though. I hope not.

But I do sometimes hear religious folks say this would be the case for them. I like to think they are not truly sociopaths, but have instead buried their internal moral compass so deep beneath religious dogma that they no longer recognize it is there. I like to think that if they did ever lose their faith they would still behave morally, finding their moral compass and sense of empathy and right doing has always been there even if it was hidden away.

And that logic works fine for them, but it's the opposite for the person who has a coincious belief that a God does exist and that everything they do in this life, they may get away with it here, but how can they possibly get away with it when they face their Lord?

A sociopath can very easily be a believer. He can very easily translate his religion to tell him to do these horrible things, or justify his doing them. Belief and obedience to an imagined God does not mean one will behave kindly to one's neighbours. History has shown this to be true on the individual as well as societal level. Everything from slavery to genocide has been "justified" through people's religious beliefs.

As Steven Wineberg put it: Good people will do good things and bad people will do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion. I'd add "dogma", "authoritarianism", and "tribalism" to religion and I would agree.

When Humans make the rules and are the judges there are many disputes, many flaws and on top of this, without a thought of God, people will still act as long as they feel they can try and get away with it in this life.

Whereas you believe that a God is making these rules for the religious, I see humans having made these rules and attributing them to Gods. You can probably see this happening in religions other than your own. When this happens, you have the exact same problem as you cited above, only now you've forbidden people from questioning these rules, from having a hand in creating and voting upon these rules, etc. To supress and control people there is no better weapon than religion. It is no coincidence that when europeans ravaged across the globe taking over new lands the first people they sent were usually missionaries, bringing the "good word".

Bottom line; For the sake of humanity, Religion is and always will be very important.

And it is an open question as to whether it is important to the benefit or detriment of society.

This requires a citation; I've personally read that non-religious (atheists and agnostic) commit less crimes than religious people (at least in the states) and I think atheist dominant societies in Europe have very low crime rates as well.

Indeed. If religion was the (or a) source of morality, we would expect to see prisons overflowing with atheists, and atheists engaging in far more hate, murder, rape, etc than theists. This simply isn't the case.

Strangely enough, in the US atheists even have lower ratios of teenage mothers as compared to the religious. How does THAT happen?

 

[Ramadhan]

Strangely enough, in the US atheists even have lower ratios of teenage mothers as compared to the religious. How does THAT happen?

I don't know where you get the statistics from, but even if it is true, it only shows that atheists in the US on average relatively are having babies at later age.
What else do you suggest?

 

[siam]

" For the sake of humanity, Religion is and always will be very important. "---it is an interesting statement---because history also shows that "religion" is used to justify behaviour that othewise would be immoral. Religion/Belief in and of itself---it just is---if it is to have value, it would be in its ability to create a transformative force within human beings to have right belief that promotes right intentions that create right actions for the benefit of all of God's creations.

This is also true of science or any other field of knowledge---how it is used by human beings determines its value or harm. In the end---WE are responsible for what we do.

Lack of religion/belief is no excuse for immorality, just as religion/belief is no excuse for immorality either.