Ummu Sufyaan
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"Why I'm not a Muslim"
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Mr. the khan, I'll reply to you when Br. Woodrow comes online.
IbnAbdulHakim
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what?> lol ! umar radhiallahu anhu, the third khalifa approached abu bakr radhiallahu anhu with concerns in regards to writing down the mushaf so that everyone knows that the Quran only has one authentic copy !
about the forbidding writing down of the hadith
bro this should settle ALL DOUBTS:
about the forbidding writing down of the hadith
bro this should settle ALL DOUBTS:
Writing Down the Hadith
In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.
Prophet Muhammad once said,
"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)
There is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.
By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.
Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.
Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.
Many Companions recorded hadiths. For example, `Abdullah ibn `Amr was permitted and even encouraged by Prophet Muhammad to write down Hadith. In addition, some 50 Companions and many followers are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.
The original manuscripts have been lost, but a very few copies have survived. An example is the manuscript of Hammam ibn Munabbih, who learned from Abu Hurairah and from him he wrote his manuscript which contains 138 hadiths. This manuscript is believed to have been written down around the middle of the first century after the Hijrah (seventh century CE).
In the beginning of the second Hijri century, during the reign of `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz, the texts of Hadith were committed to writing. The Sunnah was collected in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Khurasan. Leading theologians uttered some statements warning against unscrupulous reporters and their unreliable reports.
Imam Malikwas the first to undertake the comprehensive and systematic compilation of Hadith. His work is known as Al-Muwatta' (The Trodden Path). Later, other compilations came into existence.
In this regard, it is important to note that there are two kinds of compilations: musnad and musannaf. In musnad collections, hadiths are arranged alphabetically under the names of the Companions on whose authority these hadiths were reported. An example of this kind is the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal .
In musannaf collections, hadiths are recorded under various headings dealing with juridical subjects such as the compilations of Al-Bukhari , Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah .
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet...agename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout
In Hadith literature, there are hadiths that forbid and others that permit the writing down of hadiths, which often causes a confusion for some people.
Prophet Muhammad once said,
"Do not write from me anything except the Qur'an and whosoever has written anything from me other than the Qur'an should erase it." (Al-Bukhari)
There is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.
By this hadith Prophet Muhammad actually meant that nothing should be written with the Qur'an on the same sheet, as this might lead to mixing the text of the Qur'an with that of the Hadith. This command was given when the Qur'an was being revealed piecemeal and was still incomplete.
Another interpretation of the hadith is that it was forbidden to write down hadiths in early days because all attention was to be paid to the Qur'an and its preservation.
Then later on, when there was no fear of abandoning the Qur'an, the previous order was abrogated and the Companions were permitted to write down hadiths. On the other hand, there is evidence that Prophet Muhammad approved of writing down his hadiths.
Many Companions recorded hadiths. For example, `Abdullah ibn `Amr was permitted and even encouraged by Prophet Muhammad to write down Hadith. In addition, some 50 Companions and many followers are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.
The original manuscripts have been lost, but a very few copies have survived. An example is the manuscript of Hammam ibn Munabbih, who learned from Abu Hurairah and from him he wrote his manuscript which contains 138 hadiths. This manuscript is believed to have been written down around the middle of the first century after the Hijrah (seventh century CE).
In the beginning of the second Hijri century, during the reign of `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz, the texts of Hadith were committed to writing. The Sunnah was collected in Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Khurasan. Leading theologians uttered some statements warning against unscrupulous reporters and their unreliable reports.
Imam Malikwas the first to undertake the comprehensive and systematic compilation of Hadith. His work is known as Al-Muwatta' (The Trodden Path). Later, other compilations came into existence.
In this regard, it is important to note that there are two kinds of compilations: musnad and musannaf. In musnad collections, hadiths are arranged alphabetically under the names of the Companions on whose authority these hadiths were reported. An example of this kind is the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal .
In musannaf collections, hadiths are recorded under various headings dealing with juridical subjects such as the compilations of Al-Bukhari , Muslim, An-Nasa'i, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah .
http://www.readingislam.com/servlet...agename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam/DIELayout
Brothers, I don't wish to argue regarding this. I've come to a conclusion after many months of research. I consider the Qur'an as detailed and complete, which has absolutely forbidden any other hadeeth. Please don't try and convince me to your sectarianism, for I've no desire to belong to any sect.
Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)
Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)
Then what HADEETH after that, will they believe in? (Quran 77.50)
God has revealed the most beautiful HADEETH (Quran 39.23)
Btw, Mz, I'd like to mention that the hadith in your signature is from At-Tirmidhi, which is considered the weakest of the 6 Sunni compilations. If prophet Muhammed (S) surely allowed us to compile his Sunnah without corruption, he would have allowed so in his lifetime.
I'm sorry, I hope you don't consider my post as attacking the prophet and his sunnah, I just consider the compilations which started with Bukhari as corrupt. I don't know whether or not the compilations done during Umar II's lifetime were authentic or not.
Peace.
Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)
Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)
Then what HADEETH after that, will they believe in? (Quran 77.50)
God has revealed the most beautiful HADEETH (Quran 39.23)
Btw, Mz, I'd like to mention that the hadith in your signature is from At-Tirmidhi, which is considered the weakest of the 6 Sunni compilations. If prophet Muhammed (S) surely allowed us to compile his Sunnah without corruption, he would have allowed so in his lifetime.
I'm sorry, I hope you don't consider my post as attacking the prophet and his sunnah, I just consider the compilations which started with Bukhari as corrupt. I don't know whether or not the compilations done during Umar II's lifetime were authentic or not.
Peace.
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IbnAbdulHakim
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that doesnt change the fact that at-tirmizi (rahimahullah) documented many saheeh ahadeeth
Brother_Mujahid
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correct
The reason why bukhari and muslim are seen more 'authentic' is because they focusssed on compiling and collecting the most authentic hadith.
Whereas some of the other hadith compilers would collect hadith which were not all saheeh.
The reason some fabricated or weak hadith were recorded was so that it would be known.
Thank you
Well, see, that's the problem....I've come accross weak hadith in Bukhari and Muslim too, hence I don't want anything to do with these innovations.
Can anyone give me links to Shi'a and Ibadi hadith? I want to read their hadith before making a final decision.
Can anyone give me links to Shi'a and Ibadi hadith? I want to read their hadith before making a final decision.
The Khan, where are you getting those Qur'an translations from? They are incorrect. Please source them.
Regarding 77:50
It is not talking about hadiths, it is directed at the other scriptures which people claim to be from God - which obviously does not equal the hadiths. Infact, all of those translations, DO NOT talk about hadiths - you have got those from an anti-hadith website.
Regarding 77:50
It is not talking about hadiths, it is directed at the other scriptures which people claim to be from God - which obviously does not equal the hadiths. Infact, all of those translations, DO NOT talk about hadiths - you have got those from an anti-hadith website.
Ummu Sufyaan
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what are you talking about^o) who gives you the authority to 'grade' hadiths to begin with
my god, you need some next level knowledge to do that.
I haven't. Sunni scholars have.
Well, I've already made it clear that the reason I've rejected all 6 Sunni compilations is because there are Hadith which:
a) Slander Allah (SWT)
b) Slander Muhammed (S)
c) Slander Musa (AHS)
d) Slander the wives of prophet Muhammed (S)
e) Slander the Sahaba
f) Are outrageous and make no sense
g) Introduced Bida'a innovations
h) Divided the Ummah into sects
i) Allowed clergical control over the Ummah
If I come accross just one hadith compilation which has not one hadith with these attributes, I shall accept it.
Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
Well, I've already made it clear that the reason I've rejected all 6 Sunni compilations is because there are Hadith which:
a) Slander Allah (SWT)
b) Slander Muhammed (S)
c) Slander Musa (AHS)
d) Slander the wives of prophet Muhammed (S)
e) Slander the Sahaba
f) Are outrageous and make no sense
g) Introduced Bida'a innovations
h) Divided the Ummah into sects
i) Allowed clergical control over the Ummah
If I come accross just one hadith compilation which has not one hadith with these attributes, I shall accept it.
Well, then again, like I said earlier, the Qur'an absolutely forbids hadith compilations.
give examples of each plz, and if they are weak hadith then dont mention it
His materials seem to be from free-minds.org, which is very similar to the lies created by submitters.org against the hadiths. Their misunderstanding of hadiths, they represent as facts. You can read www.free-minds.org for an idea.
IbnAbdulHakim
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LOL mr khan, you have been greatly mislead!
you need to provide proof now, spread the your version of the truth to us. let us see what you've been reading !
you need to provide proof now, spread the your version of the truth to us. let us see what you've been reading !
Ummu Sufyaan
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the hadith are a compilation of the Prophet (sallalahu aleyhi wa sallams) words/actions, hence why on earth would he slander Allah, himself, :muddlehea, his companions...
where...
how do you know bidah exists :? where does the quran mention it. as far as i know, only the hadith mention innvoations...i.e one would only believe that innovations exist through the hadiths..but you reject them, so how do you know about innovations?
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I admit, a lot of my info is from free-minds.
Unfortunately, my Hadith software is not re-installing (the one from Islamosoft solutions), error 1331 (I hate windows...) so I'll have to copy paste from online -
Slandering Allah (SWT) -
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
God is the time" (Muwatta 56/3).
"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)
Slandering Muhammed (S) -
"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley." (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).
"The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing" (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).
"Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men" (Bukhary).
I would go into more, but I'd rather not as a friend of mine has come to visit me.
To end it;
"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).
God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, His messenger and last prophet (27:6).
The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Quran (6:19).
The sole mission of the messenger is to deliver the message (16:35).
We must obey God's messengers (3:31-32; 24:56). Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger is a disbeliever (72:23).
We have been commanded to follow the Quran alone (7:2-3; 17:46).
The Quran contains everything that we need for guidance (16:89).
God did not leave anything out of the Quran (6:38).
Wisdom (hikmah) is in God's Quran; not necessarily in men's hadith (17:39; 36:2).
Anything that is not commanded in the Quran, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (5:101).
The Prophet Abraham was the founder of Islam and a good example for us (22:78; 2:135; 60:4).
Muhammad was the follower of Abraham (3:68; 16:123).
All religious practices; daily prayers, obligatory charity, fasting, and pilgrimage come through Abraham (21:73; 2:43,127-128; 2:183; 3:43; 19:31-59; 20:14).
We should not follow any hadith besides the Quran as the source of God's religion (45:6).
There are those who use vain hadith to mislead people, without knowledge (31:6).
We do not need fabricated hadith, because the Quran is fully detailed (12:111).
The best hadith is the Quran (39:23).
The only sunnah (law) is God's sunnah (33:38,62; 35:43).
Those who decree religious laws never authorized by God, and their followers, are idol worshipers (42:21).
The Quran is fully detailed, not vague (30:28; 41:3).
Quran has been explained and detailed by God Himself (11:1; 75:19).
God is the teacher of the Quran (55:1).
The Quran is easy to understand for believers; while it is impossible for idol worshipers (54:17,22,32,40; 17:46; 18:57).
The Prophet Muhammad, as a good example, did not accept and follow any other source besides the Quran (5:48-49; 6:114; 10:15).
God guaranteed the preservation of the Quran, not the hadith (15:9; 36:69; 38:87; 41:42; 43:4; 56:78).
God's word is perfect (6:115). Those who follow conjecture are diverted (6:112).
God does not forget (19:64).
God does not run out of words (18:109).
Those who are not certain about the hereafter, are not satisfied with the Quran, they want to amend it with other books (10:15).
Those who divide their religion into sects are not followers of Muhammad (6:159).
The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Quran, not hadith (25:30).
Anyway, like I said earlier, I don't want to argue, I'm a free thinker, not a blind follower of Abu Hanifa or any other Imam.
Unfortunately, my Hadith software is not re-installing (the one from Islamosoft solutions), error 1331 (I hate windows...) so I'll have to copy paste from online -
Slandering Allah (SWT) -
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
God is the time" (Muwatta 56/3).
"To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh." (Bukhary 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)
Slandering Muhammed (S) -
"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"A group from the Ureyneh and Uqayleh tribes came to the prophet and the prophet advised them to drink urine of camels. Later on, when they killed the prophet's shepherd, the prophet seized them, gouged out their eyes, cut their hands and legs, and left them thirsty in the desert" (Bukhary 56/152, Hanbel 3/107,163).
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"When the prophet died his armor had been pawned to a Jew for several pounds of barley." (Bukhari 34/14,33,88; Hanbal 1/ 300; 6/42,160,230).
"The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing" (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57; 4/367).
"Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men" (Bukhary).
I would go into more, but I'd rather not as a friend of mine has come to visit me.
To end it;
"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).
God revealed the Quran to Muhammad, His messenger and last prophet (27:6).
The only book that the messenger delivered to the world is the Quran (6:19).
The sole mission of the messenger is to deliver the message (16:35).
We must obey God's messengers (3:31-32; 24:56). Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger is a disbeliever (72:23).
We have been commanded to follow the Quran alone (7:2-3; 17:46).
The Quran contains everything that we need for guidance (16:89).
God did not leave anything out of the Quran (6:38).
Wisdom (hikmah) is in God's Quran; not necessarily in men's hadith (17:39; 36:2).
Anything that is not commanded in the Quran, God left it up to our minds and intelligence to decide (5:101).
The Prophet Abraham was the founder of Islam and a good example for us (22:78; 2:135; 60:4).
Muhammad was the follower of Abraham (3:68; 16:123).
All religious practices; daily prayers, obligatory charity, fasting, and pilgrimage come through Abraham (21:73; 2:43,127-128; 2:183; 3:43; 19:31-59; 20:14).
We should not follow any hadith besides the Quran as the source of God's religion (45:6).
There are those who use vain hadith to mislead people, without knowledge (31:6).
We do not need fabricated hadith, because the Quran is fully detailed (12:111).
The best hadith is the Quran (39:23).
The only sunnah (law) is God's sunnah (33:38,62; 35:43).
Those who decree religious laws never authorized by God, and their followers, are idol worshipers (42:21).
The Quran is fully detailed, not vague (30:28; 41:3).
Quran has been explained and detailed by God Himself (11:1; 75:19).
God is the teacher of the Quran (55:1).
The Quran is easy to understand for believers; while it is impossible for idol worshipers (54:17,22,32,40; 17:46; 18:57).
The Prophet Muhammad, as a good example, did not accept and follow any other source besides the Quran (5:48-49; 6:114; 10:15).
God guaranteed the preservation of the Quran, not the hadith (15:9; 36:69; 38:87; 41:42; 43:4; 56:78).
God's word is perfect (6:115). Those who follow conjecture are diverted (6:112).
God does not forget (19:64).
God does not run out of words (18:109).
Those who are not certain about the hereafter, are not satisfied with the Quran, they want to amend it with other books (10:15).
Those who divide their religion into sects are not followers of Muhammad (6:159).
The complaint of the messenger in the hereafter will be about the desertion of the Quran, not hadith (25:30).
Anyway, like I said earlier, I don't want to argue, I'm a free thinker, not a blind follower of Abu Hanifa or any other Imam.
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But you seem to blind follow, free-minds, judging by your stubborn stance. Did you even cross reference the material with any scholarly work? No, why? Because, what you had read, you was content with. This, as you know, is not a authentic process in judging whats correct/incorrect.
The sheer out of context, and some translation errors, of those hadiths - just goes to show, you wasn't prepared to do any research. You just came across something you liked, and accepted it as a reliable authentic representation of Islam.
From your stance, people like Abu Hanfia, etc, where all wrong, they did mass haram - they went against Qur'an. Yet this guy, who isn't a scholar, who wrote that site, somehow, is superior in knowledge of the Qur'an and sunnah, more than any scholar of the past? Please, before you commit to such slanderous liars, research properly.
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SixTen, I agree with you. My research on Qur'an alone has recently started as of the past few days. I'm doing my own research based on their statements. I've rejected some of their claims (such as the anti-hijab claim), but accepted many others.
Now, reason I don't like Abu Hanifa (my own research) is:
- He allowed alcohol which is not made of dates or grapes, in moderation. Later Hanafi scholars canceled this.
- He disallowed eating of any seafood that does not have gills, which completely goes against the Qur'an.
- If a man leaves his wife and disappears, Abu Hanifa said that she must wait 80 years for a divorce.
Like I said earlier, I'm following my own path. I'm not judging anyone else, so why does everyone judge me? I'm following my heart. How one practices his religion is between him and God (SWT) alone or whatever higher authority he believes in. Nobody has the right to say he's wrong or right. Have I ever said you're wrong? I merely stated I don't belong to any sect. Then, I was accused for being a follower of the fake prophet. Then, I was accused of being wrong, and that what you believe in is my only path to true salvation.
Think about it. Do you all have divine authority to say I'm wrong and you're right? Do I have divine authority to say I'm right and you're wrong?
Peace.
Now, reason I don't like Abu Hanifa (my own research) is:
- He allowed alcohol which is not made of dates or grapes, in moderation. Later Hanafi scholars canceled this.
- He disallowed eating of any seafood that does not have gills, which completely goes against the Qur'an.
- If a man leaves his wife and disappears, Abu Hanifa said that she must wait 80 years for a divorce.
Like I said earlier, I'm following my own path. I'm not judging anyone else, so why does everyone judge me? I'm following my heart. How one practices his religion is between him and God (SWT) alone or whatever higher authority he believes in. Nobody has the right to say he's wrong or right. Have I ever said you're wrong? I merely stated I don't belong to any sect. Then, I was accused for being a follower of the fake prophet. Then, I was accused of being wrong, and that what you believe in is my only path to true salvation.
Think about it. Do you all have divine authority to say I'm wrong and you're right? Do I have divine authority to say I'm right and you're wrong?
Peace.
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