Why is there Distrust between Christians, Jews and Muslims?

[Walter]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah:

I apologise for my delayed response, but I have just returned from London where I visited the British Museum to confirm the accessibility of the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Alexandrinus. Allow me to report that these manuscripts have been moved to the British Library, and they are available for viewing by anyone. There is currently a display called “Sacred” at the British Library which displays many early manuscripts and equipment used by Israelites, Christians and Muslims. Any one visiting the UK is encouraged to view it.

There was one display of a copy of the authorised version of the Koran that was commissioned by the 3rd Caliph Uthman around 650 AD. It is on animal skin, and the library records thus: “Uthman was anxious to establish the correct reading of the Qur’an as different memorized versions had circulated since Mohammed’s death in 632.”

Fi_Sabilillah, this thread has become quite full with completely separate debates on extraneous issues (polygamy, current crimes, mode of dress, etc). I acknowledged my erroneous thread title, and had requested that it be changed to “Why does the Koran teach Muslims to distrust some Jews and Christians”. I would like to research and respond to every ‘on-thread’ query; however, I believe that anyone trying to follow this thread may get more than a little confused. Is there any way that you can:

1. Change the title of the tread?
2. Repost the extraneous issues on a separate thread?

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Umar001]

Hi Fi_Sabilillah and Al Habeshi:

I understand the tradition that the Koran is not a book but the recitation. However as I explained to Islamirama, we must be willing to set aside tradition or our opinions when it conflicts with truth.

But how do we know what is truth? We research, thus, it only makes sense to take understand a book in the way the one who was given it had understood it, so his opinion is as good as the book itself!

The Koran repeatedly explains that Muslims must believe the previous Books sent by God - not sayings nor recitations but BOOKS.

e.g. 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Well I said I could believe int he Books, meaning that I believe God sent them, but that now they have been changed or lost, theres nothin in the passage that denies that, furthermore, the rest of the Qu'ran indicates that they have been changed and so does history!

After the reformation, the Bible was mass printed and became available to the masses. Of course there must be some study and interpretation of certain verses; however, all people can now benefit from the knowledge of God contained therein.

Actually the Qu'ran was out with the masses from the start, this was one of the thing in my view that aided the preservation.

Regarding the originals not being available. You are probably correct; however, they were copied and it would appear quite faithfully.

Explain to me how you conclude quite faithfully, under what proof or information do you state quite faithfully, rather if you read about it you find that the manuscripts are catagorised in four different catagories and the major bulk of the manuscripts available to us are of a catagory whose's characteristics are outright fabrication and harmonization amongst other things.

The copies were obviously available during the time of Mohammed since he repeatedly admonished his followers to believe them.

To believe something does not mean that the thing has to be with you, you believe in God but does that mean that God is there in the flesh? No, Muhammad telling his followers to believe in Books or Angels does not neccesitate the Books or Angels being present.

However, he, like Jesus, recommended that the people not follow the religious leader’s corrupt practises. It was the religious leaders’ behaviour that was corrupt, and not the scriptures, which Mohammed admonished his followers to read.

Again that is your presumption without proof, for example, Muhammad said that if Moses was here he'd have to follow the law of Muhammad. This is indicative to the fact that the laws of Moses and Jesus were for a time period and a people and so were their books.

Regards,

Eesa

 

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Let us put aside our opinions for a moment and ask a question of recorded history as you have indirectly requested.

Question. Is the Bible essentially the same today as when it was first recorded?

Answer. All earlier finds of manuscripts support the position that the Bible is materially the same as when it was first recorded. Whether the Nash Papyrus (200 BC), Dead Sea Scrolls, parts of the Gospel of John (125 AD) or the Codex Sinaiticus (300 AD), or the over 200 separate biblical manuscripts before 600 AD, the copying appears to be faithfully carried out.

There is also historical evidence from other sources and a host of archaeological evidence that supports Biblical accounts of history. Therefore, by 600 AD, there were a variety of faithfully copied biblical translations for any of Mohammed’s followers to read.

As I previously explained, Jesus and Mohammed were not disputing the reliability of the Scriptures. They were however, both angry at the religious leader’s corrupt practices.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Kashnowe]

Ask any woman and she would prefer one man over loads, thats their nature.

AHHEEEMM. this is not true. i would love to have 3 or 4 husbands at my beckon call whenever i wanted them.

unfortunately people (men and women) are extremely jealous by nature. jealousy is intrinsic.

polygamy is not a good idea if you want a healthy relationship.

i did once watch a documentary about a small tribe in new zealand (i think) where the women were permitte d as many husbands as they wanted and are able to divorce them whenever they see fit. and the men must comply. and the men are not allowed to have mroe than one wife.

interesting )

me likee

 

[Balthasar21]

Because of their teacher's and media !

 

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

After reviewing this thread, I conclude my opinion that Jews, Christians and Muslims do not trust each other because each of us believe that they we have an exclusive access to God. Christians will not trust Jews unless they accept the Messiah Jesus. Muslims will not trust Christians and Jews unless they accept their prophet Mohammed. Jews will not trust Christians and Muslims until they become Jews.

I believe that we should try to sort ourselves out before the Lord returns to judge the earth. We all desire the same personal relationship with God that Abraham had. We each have differing traditions that we use in order to facilitate the sustainability of our faith, or the passing on of our faith to the next generation.

We spend so much time and effort in either condemning each other’s traditions or proclaiming ours as the only acceptable tradition that we miss the common objective. We are holding on so tightly to our traditions and spend our lives protecting it from change that we risk missing out on the all important relationship with God.

We have forgotten that the traditions started with Moses. Abraham had no tradition. He was just a friend with God. Why can’t we simply place our traditions in their rightful priority – which is behind a relationship with the God of Abraham and a relationship with each other?

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[barney]

Because "Mohammend brought the final message", and "noone will enter the gates of paradise except throught Jesus".

As a Agnostic, I like to reflect on Douglas Adams's "Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy" book, where God writes his final- final message to mankind at the end of the universe in million mile high neon letters which reads:

"We Apologise for the Inconvenience-Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible"

 

[جوري]

Hi Everyone:

We have forgotten that the traditions started with Moses. Abraham had no tradition. He was just a friend with God. Why can’t we simply place our traditions in their rightful priority – which is behind a relationship with the God of Abraham and a relationship with each other?

Best regards,
Grenville

We Muslims believe that Abraham PBUH, also had traditions (there are five books) you might want to reflect on these verses--

[Pickthal 87:17] Although the Hereafter is better and more lasting.

إِنَّ هَذَا لَفِي الصُّحُفِ الْأُولَى {18}​

[Pickthal 87:18] Lo! This is in the former scrolls.

صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمُوسَى {19}​

[Pickthal 87:19] The Books of Abraham and Moses.

Called the Suhuf of Abraham-- true Abraham was an Island, not just a friend to G-D-- five books not three...

the rest of your conclusion, I suppose is subjective? maybe objective, I can't comment much... Muslims view Christians and Jews as people of the book... I don't think the afore two view us the same way? also contrary to popular beliefs-- there are a party of Jews and Christians who are to enter heaven-- It is really up to G-D-- we are not funneling people and directing traffic... I think it is a huge transgression to do so-- there are some Hadith to allude that Muslims makeup only 1/2 the people in heaven.. I'll try to post it later...

peace!

 

[جوري]

here is the hadith

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 265:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

The Prophet said, "On the day of Resurrection Allah will say, 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik our Lord, and Sa'daik ' Then there will be a loud call (saying), Allah orders you to take from among your offspring a mission for the (Hell) Fire.' Adam will say, 'O Lord! Who are the mission for the (Hell) Fire?' Allah will say, 'Out of each thousand, take out 999.' At that time every pregnant female shall drop her load (have a miscarriage) and a child will have grey hair. And you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet not drunk, but severe will be the torment of Allah." (22.2) (When the Prophet mentioned this), the people were so distressed (and afraid) that their faces got changed (in color) whereupon the Prophet said, "From Gog and Magog nine-hundred ninety-nine will be taken out and one from you. You Muslims (compared to the large number of other people) will be like a black hair on the side of a white ox, or a white hair on the side of a black ox, and I hope that you will be one-fourth of the people of Paradise." On that, we said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "I hope that you will be) one-third of the people of Paradise." We again said, "Allahu-Akbar!" Then he said, "(I hope that you will be) one-half of the people of Paradise." So we said, Allahu Akbar."


SAHIH BUKHARI!

 

[Walter]

Hi Purset Ambrosia:

Thank you for your useful insights. We must remember that the relationship that Abraham had with God was personal and was described as a friendship. It is this close personal relationship with God that the Torah, Gospels, and the Koran instruct believers to cultivate. Regrettably, we seem to instead cultivate our traditions which may or may not facilitate such a personal relationship.

Doing God’s work is completely separate from knowing God. The Gospels teach that Hell will include those who did what they sincerely believed was God’s work, and which is actually described as God’s work. However, they were disqualified from entering heaven because they did not have that personal relationship with God.

Traditions are important for children. Children need to grow in their trust and love for God and this can be facilitated by our traditions which act as a protective shield against some of the life scarring and fatal consequences of sin. When they are mature enough to accept the responsibility of their actions, then they can, like Abraham, covenant with God. In this covenant, they then rely, not on the protective traditions of their parents or community, but rather on their covenant with God as this friendship is cultivated.

When they have children of their own, then they need to institute these traditions so that their children can be led to covenant with God also. However, there must come a point in everyone’s life when they must leave the security of the tradition, (whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, atheist, agnostic, or whatever type of tradition you were raised under) and have a personal relationship with the God of Abraham for themselves, for there is no other God besides Him.

The cycle then appears to be: You are born and live under a tradition to lead you to covenant with God. Thereafter, you walk with God as your friend and do His will until you die. When you are responsible for children, then you should institute a tradition that will facilitate them choosing a personal relationship with God. This will require that you also follow the tradition as an example to your children, but you know that you are not relying on the tradition any more – you are instead relying on your personal friendship with God.

Therefore, in this context, I have no doubt that Abraham also had some traditions for his household to follow.

I hope that this is clear.

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[Umar001]

Hi Al Habeshi:

Let us put aside our opinions for a moment and ask a question of recorded history as you have indirectly requested.

Question. Is the Bible essentially the same today as when it was first recorded?

Answer. All earlier finds of manuscripts support the position that the Bible is materially the same as when it was first recorded. Whether the Nash Papyrus (200 BC), Dead Sea Scrolls, parts of the Gospel of John (125 AD) or the Codex Sinaiticus (300 AD), or the over 200 separate biblical manuscripts before 600 AD, the copying appears to be faithfully carried out.

Well could you shed more light on the Nash Papyrus, what it contains how it is dated and so forth. The Dead Sea Scrolls maybe you could shed more like on those two, the Gospel of John, have you actually seen how much it shows, that's evidence for about 20 letters. The Codex Sinaiticus well do you know what it contains, for example, upto where in Mark it goes? What about the story of the adulterar, what about the scribal editions, how many scribes worked on it, and so forth, and this is pretty late still, the manuscripts that are over 200 are what? Fragments? This is exactly what I mean, within the first 300 years what is there?

There is also historical evidence from other sources and a host of archaeological evidence that supports Biblical accounts of history. Therefore, by 600 AD, there were a variety of faithfully copied biblical translations for any of Mohammed’s followers to read.

First I do not know of which historical evidences you are alluding to, nor the archaological evidences, furthermore I have actually come across a verse which was changed to read a different place in the Gospel of John some say it is because the scribe found it to be wrong thus changed it to a different place.

As for the statement that Muhammad's followers had stuff to read, well again assumption, you have yet to show that the Bible was translated to Arabic.

As I previously explained, Jesus and Mohammed were not disputing the reliability of the Scriptures. They were however, both angry at the religious leader’s corrupt practices.

That's an assumption.

 

[Walter]

Hi Al Habeshi:

I respond as follows:

1. The Nash Papyrus contains the 10 commandments and was dated 2nd century BC.

2. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain around 25 books of the Old Testament (need to confirm) and were dated 2nd century BC to 1st century AD.

3. The Papyrus Bodmer (p66) II does not contain 20 letters as you asserted but 75 pages containing most of the Gospel of John. It was dated 125 A.D.

4. The Codex Sinaiticus contains portions of the Old Testament and the complete New Testament. It was dated 4 century AD.

These documents can be compared to show that the information contained in each is essentially the same. Copies of them were apparently shown to Mohammed.

6:91 - No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling.

I have provided sufficient evidence to show that both Jesus and Mohammed were angry with the religious leader’s corrupt practices. Please re-read my article on this topic.

http://researching.wordpress.com/2007/04/11/islam-in-the-balance-part-2/

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Balthasar21]

Its because of the media / t.v. newspaper / radio and their teacher .Its call my god better then your god .

 

[cihad]

there is no my god ,your god, there is only Allah

 

[tears4husain]

For starters if some one is against what gives yor life meaning, what you live and die for, what you believe in your heart and soul. Why wouldn't there be a conflict? To be honest if you read enough you will see its not just about jews,christians, and muslims its and about right and wrong. Sense no one wants to be wrong there is conflict. Regardless of your belief, a true believer in God hears his revelation and obeys. See christians jesus(a.s.) as a savior, now he says he didnt come to change the laws of the old but to inforce them.the old laws will tell you there is no savior other than God and there is no god but one God. That no soul can bare the judgement of another, no father for the son, nor mother for a daugther,but every soul for its own accord. These are laws that jesus(a.s.) believes, taught, enforced and loved for the sake of his God. if you really look at it who taught christians how to pray? Because there is a description of prayerthe bible. What did jesus(a.s.) say when he met his disciples? Or depart from them? What did he do before he prayed? how many times a day did he pray? How did he fast? did he fast? Christian from the east (of arab decent) call God ALLAH. Every one knows who the holy spirit is, angel Gabriel who brought the revelations to all prophets who got them accept moses. Gabreil is a slave/servant of God and not :rollseyes God.

 

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

As I continue to reread the Bible and Koran with a clearer perspective, I notice Mohammed accusing some, not all but SOME Christians and Israelite leaders of misleading the people. In the Gospels, we see Jesus accusing the Jewish leaders of misleading people as well.

Jesus noted: But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Matt 23:13

Mohammed noted: Ye People of the Book! Why do ye clothe Truth with falsehood, and conceal the Truth, while ye have knowledge? 3:71

It should be noted that the accusation was that the scriptures were available and accurate, but that the leaders were purposely misinforming the people.

Therefore a principal source of mistrust is religious leaders who misinform their followers about what the scriptures actually state and what the other group believes. Some Christians are taught to believe that Muslims worship Mohammed and an idol called Allah, while some Muslims are taught to believe that Christians worship 3 gods. Some Christians are taught that the Koran is an evil book, while some Muslims are taught that the Bible has been corrupted. And I can fill this page with thousands other misconceptions which, if true, could inhibit a relationship with the one and only true God.

This early false education creates an obvious distrust and dislike between the groups. Some Muslims cannot conceive of their God accepting worship from the misguided and polytheistic Christians, and some Christians cannot conceive of their God accepting worship from the misguided and idolatrous Muslims. So we continue to train our children to distrust the other based on our misconceptions and we have successfully mis-educated our children in this regard for over 1,300 years.

How can we escape this cycle of distrust. I believe that the cycle of distrust can be broken if Christians were to read the Koran and if Muslims were to read the Bible. I can confirm that after reading the first chapter of the Koran, I immediately could not distrust any one who sincerely believed such beautiful words. After reading the second chapter, I knew that Muslims were my brothers, and after reading the entire Koran, I was distressed that we have been kept apart for so long because of clear misunderstandings on both of our parts.

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;
Most Gracious, Most Merciful;
Master of the Day of Judgment.
Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek.
Show us the straight way,
The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
​

Best regards,
Grenville

 

[AB517]

If we all believed what we were taught, we would be able to discuss our differences in peace. But, sadly too many people in each faith have little ability to adequately present truth, so they choose to attack.

To many people there is much personal satisfaction in being able to force another into submission and then think of it in terms they have proven the other person wrong.

It seems very few people understand that it is impossible to prove another person wrong. we can only give reason to show that what we believe is true. No matter what I present to a person of a faith different than mine, they can always come up with a logical reason why that can be an exception and not valid.

If I were to say there is a 10,000 pound purple giraffe sitting on my head. You can not prove there isn't. Further more you would not have to prove it, it would be up to me to prove that there was.

If each of us could understand that the best means of defeating false beliefs is to show the proof for true beliefs, in a kind, loving manner. The truth would spread fast and false beliefs would be replaced with truth. all in the name of love and no need to destroy each other.

I totaly agree here.
Its the actions of men that divide not the teachings of these great religions. I just started to read the koran because Mohammed is a true profit. I stated before that I am from the USA and will not talk to my friends and family about how it is us (us here not USA)versous islam. I talk now about how it is our government against this or that government. I as a christain now listen to those who know the koran because I can learn more about God. Religion, like a hammer can be used to build up or tare down.

I am suprised at the pole results though.

AB

 

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Let me clarify about Muslims and Christians reading the other’s scriptures. I acknowledge the initial hesitancy in reading the other’s scriptures. I too was hesitant and had to overcome my belief that there was something inherently evil about the Koran and that to read it would corrupt me. I suppose that Muslims will have a similar type of hesitancy in reading the Bible.

I overcame that hesitancy by deciding that I was not reading the Koran for guidance, but simply to see what was in it. I determined that if I came across any satanic worship or demonic ritual, that I would cease reading immediately and ask God to cleanse me. After reading the first chapter, I decided to try to see things from Mohammed’s perspective and give him the benefit of doubt when asking why he did or said what he did. Further, I decided not to conduct a critical analysis the book but to try and determine Mohammed’s intent from the recorded evidence.

Perhaps if Muslims would do the same with the Bible, then we could erase much of the mistrust between us and engage in a more meaningful debate.

Regards,
Grenville

 

[Woodrow]

Hi Everyone:

Let me clarify about Muslims and Christians reading the other’s scriptures. I acknowledge the initial hesitancy in reading the other’s scriptures. I too was hesitant and had to overcome my belief that there was something inherently evil about the Koran and that to read it would corrupt me. I suppose that Muslims will have a similar type of hesitancy in reading the Bible.

I overcame that hesitancy by deciding that I was not reading the Koran for guidance, but simply to see what was in it. I determined that if I came across any satanic worship or demonic ritual, that I would cease reading immediately and ask God to cleanse me. After reading the first chapter, I decided to try to see things from Mohammed’s perspective and give him the benefit of doubt when asking why he did or said what he did. Further, I decided not to conduct a critical analysis the book but to try and determine Mohammed’s intent from the recorded evidence.

Perhaps if Muslims would do the same with the Bible, then we could erase much of the mistrust between us and engage in a more meaningful debate.

Regards,
Grenville

I can understand a Muslims reluctance to read the Bible and a Christians reluctance to read the Qur'an. It is not always wise, unless a person has a very firm belief in God(swt) and honestly is using the reading in a constructive manner.

I would not encourage one of my Bothers or Sisters to read the Bible unless I was certain they had a strong foundation in Islam. I doubt if the Bible could convince a Muslim to become a Christian, but I can see it causing some confusion if the person was not well versed in the Qur'an. The confusion could lead to animosity in either direction.

A study of other religions does require a good degree of maturity and the ability to refrain from anger. Most of us are very limited in either or both. I would say read what you can handle, provided it is done with a good intent and the goal is to serve Allah(swt)

 

[Walter]

Hi Woodrow:

The aim of reading the other’s scripture is not conversion but understanding the other’s perspective and eliminating the distrust between them.

Let me respectfully add that it is unwise to discourage persons from reading the Books sent before which are foundational to Islam. Christians should read the Books sent before to Moses and the Prophets in order to better understand the Gospel. Reading the Jewish scriptures, even as young Christian converts is unlikely to result in them converting to Judaism.

The Koran instructs Muslims to read and believe the foundational Books of Islam which are found in the Bible - not for the purpose of converting to Judaism or Christianity, but to better understand Mohammed’s message. Some try to dissuade Muslims from following the Koran's instruction by claiming that the Books sent before are unavailable; however, this is incorrect.

Since Jesus will judge us all at the end of the Age, we must be careful not to fall into the category of persons whom He chastised while He was on the earth:

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Matt 23:13

Also: He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition.” Mark 7:8-9

The Kingdom of God is for all people. Our traditions should not prevent persons from seeking after more knowledge of God, and they certainly should not inhibit persons from an Abrahamic relationship with the One and only God whom I believe we are both trying to serve.

Regards,
Grenville