Wife beating?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

So, may I ask you to clarify the beginning of the verse. Are the first 2 methods "dispensations" as well? Or could they be described as "recommended" because the Prophet practiced them? If a man believes that talking will not be effective can he just skip this step, and not share a bed with a woman?

No he can't skip the steps because it is a progressive dispensation; he is allowed to do one step after exhausting the preceding step. It is a dispensation because he is allowed to use such steps in such dispute resolutions, when they prove productive.

But since it is clear to me now that this verse is not a recommendation of what would be most effective, rather a permission given if the husband believes it will be effective, I will make sure to inform my future husband that hitting me while we are having an argument will not be effective, and then this issue will not affect me in the least.

Indeed; it will not affect you if your spouse knows you well and in fact, you would most likely never come into the situation of manifest indecency in the first place.

As a matter of fact, if you think about these minor issues in the context of Islam as a whole complete system, it would seem rather foolish to do away with such a grand way of life on the basis of such trivialities. Consider the example of a car. Imagine that someone was offering you a luxury sedan with all the most expensive features and the latest technological equipment, all of this for free. Now on the speedometer, in addition to having mph in large font, it also has in a smaller font "km/hr". Would you reject the entire car because you would never use "km/hr" and you don't know anyone who would and you don't as of yet appreciate the wisdom behind the car having such a feature? Would you reject the whole car on such a triviality? I don't think any sane person would.

Islam is that car, a machine of absolute perfection designed by an All-Knowing Creator, and being offered to you for free. You have witnessed the power and manificence of all the fundamental components and features of the car, and you have confessed that you are desperate to accept such an offer. But the only thing holding you back is trivialities like this?!

Think about the sublime concept of achieving tranquility through the devotion to the One Merciful creator of us all! Think about the Noble life of the blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who was the greatest example of compassion, generosity, tolerance, mercy and love the world has ever seen! Think about the message he brought and all the suffering and persecution he and his followers underwent, for what? For God alone, to spread this message of devotion and share it with all human beings, so that we all may come closer to God and fullfill our purpose in life, alleviating our distress and bringing peace to troubled minds.

This is all being offered to you for free and you witness others around you accepting the offer, and crying out of joy and gratitude to their merciful Lord who blessed them with guidance. What is holding you back? Do not allow satan to get the better of you, making trivialities obstacles to you accepting the truth. Accept Islam before your chance in life is over, for no soul will get a second chance.
http://www.islamicboard.com/590000-post40.html

Islam is the call of your soul. Don't suppress it. Embrace it.

Peace!

 

[chris4336]

Ansar - Thanks for the reply, it helped me step and see the big picture.

Eesa said to me awhile ago that it all comes down to faith the there is a higher power who knows you better than you know yourself. Maybe we do not understand all these rules, but we accept them as a part of faith.

I am really really trying to accept Islam, and sometimes I feel like I can, even though I do not undersand completely all the rules and regulations. But sometimes I feel like "How can I believe in a God that permits hitting your wife" or "Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?" I know Muslims will say this a satan whispering in my ear. Maybe this is just my test from God? Maybe its Gods way of telling me that Islam is not for me? How am I supposed to know? That is why it is probably best for me to just do some soul searching or focus on the proofs of that the Quran is from God, rather than evaluating its content, based on my own morals.

I do understand your car analogy, but these things for me are not that trivial, rather they are a complete change in my value system. When you are taught your whole life, don't hit women, one man for one women, men and women should be equal partners in a marriage, it takes a lot of faith to change these views.

Here is how I tried to explain it to Eesa. Lets say there is a religion that accepted baby killing. And the members had all these justifications for killing your baby, like they would go hungry or maybe they had a deformity. But you still felt in your heart that killing babies was wrong. So now you must accept a God that permits baby killing. And you will have to defend baby killing to all your friends and family who are not part of this religion. And you might have to live one day surronded by people who are killing their babies. And you must now support legislation so that baby killers are not punished. Even though you personally would never kill your own baby. I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. This is how I feel with Islam. I know polygamy and hitting your wife are no where near as bad as killing your baby, but they are important issues for me. It just takes A LOT of faith I guess.

Anyway, thanks to all of your for trying to explain things to me.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam Sis Chris,

u may visit these sites to know more about women's right in Islam, pologamy etc.

I didn't read all the articles but seems good. Many articles are written by our revert ( new Muslim ) sisters. & brothers :happy:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/women.htm

Islam, Culture and Women

by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood

How can anyone justify Islam's treatment of women, when it imprisons Afghans under blue shuttlecock burqas and makes Pakistani girls marry strangers against their will?


How can you respect a religion that forces women into polygamous marriages, mutilates their genitals, forbids them to drive cars and subjects them to the humiliation of "instant" divorce?


In fact, none of these practices are Islamic at all. [More]


Women's Rights and Equality in Islam
"At the beginning Islam was the most revolutionary liberalization of women's rights the civilized world has ever seen.


But afterwards Muslims became ignorant of this and now Muslim countries are the scene of some of the worst abuses of women's rights", contends American convert to Islam, Yahya M.

Women's rights in Islam

Websites by Muslim women

Women Converts to Islam

Hijab and Islamic Clothing

Polygamy

Advice to Muslim Women


Polygamy - The Ultimate Feminist Lifestyle
By Elizabeth Joseph

I've often said that if polygamy didn't exist, the modern American career woman would have invented it.


http://www.islamfortoday.com/polygamy3.htm

 

[chris4336]

Thank you very much Muslim Women, I will spend some time tonight going over these links

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Maybe we do not understand all these rules, but we accept them as a part of faith.

We understand these rules and we see the wisdom for them. Right now, you do not just like a person who has never needed to use "km/hr" will not see the wisdom in such a feature.

But sometimes I feel like "How can I believe in a God that permits hitting your wife"

If that's what you're thinking then you are totally distorting the issue once again. You make it seem like some blanket permission to hit whenever you want, and that is totally UNISLAMIC. The correct statement would be "...a God that permits hitting only in cases of manifest indecency when it will prove productive, and only after all other methods, such as dialogue and seperation, have been exhausted." As soon as you put it into perspective, your objections dissolve.

"Why would God let men have 3 more wives even if the first one would be really upset?"

If the first wife doesn't want it then God has given her the ability to simply stipulate it in her contract and then he will not be able to marry another wife. If people follow the sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and follow his teachings on kindness, love and compassion for one's spouse they will never fall into anything that is cruel to her or unfair.

Maybe this is just my test from God? Maybe its Gods way of telling me that Islam is not for me?

Would God ever tell one that submission and devotion to Him alone is not for one of His creation? That would be manifest injustice, and God is never unjust. Use the reason and understanding that God has blessed you with and you will see that the Islamic creed on belief in God and His Messengers is the clear and truthful path.

focus on the proofs of that the Quran is from God, rather than evaluating its content, based on my own morals.

But right now you are not even evaluating its content fairly. You aren't studying the message of the Qur'an in terms of monotheism, prophethood, the hereafter, etc. You are getting hung up on tabloid issues which are truly trivialities. Think about this thread, it is an entire discussion on just one word in the whole Qur'an, and even still you don't have a rational objection to it, you just admit that you don't know any cases where you would see such a step as effective. That's no reason to throw away such a magnificent gift! The gift of Islam!

When you are taught your whole life, don't hit women

Islam does not contradict that. Islam commands men to be loving and compassionate to their spouses and never abusive and to follow the lofty example of the Prophet. You are twisting and distorting a dispensation in one specific particular case of manifest indecency and even then only when it will prove productive. So the contradiction with your values actually does not exist here, it is but a figment of your imagination.

one man for one women

This is actually what most muslims practice and if one follows the teachings of Islam they will never do anything that is unjuts or cruel to their spouse, so again you are creating a conflict where there shouldn't be one.

men and women should be equal partners in a marriage

No conflict here either, Islam says that men and women both have equal status before God and they have complementary roles.
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=793&section=family_society&subsection=Women

And I am absolutely disgusted by your example on baby killing. How on earth can any sane person compare one one hand a non-violent, non-harmful, non-painful method of countering manifest indecency when it will prove productive, to infanticide on the other hand?!? This is abhorrent killing of innocent lives, which Islam prohibits! What kind of perverted logic places dealing lovingly and justly with one's spouse in the same boat as slaughter?! If we were talking about domestic violence and wife abuse then maybe such a comparison would be more appropriate, but I have clearly shown that Islam gives NO licence for any kind of domestic violence of abuse and it rejects such things completely! Your objection to this issue was not that you thought it was abusive or cruel, but you just didn't see the usefulness of this kind of 'tap' in such a situation. So then you should compare it to "km'hr" on a car, something harmless that you don't see the use for. Not the slaughter of innocents!! You have some serious re-thinking to do if you that is how little you understand about Islam's teachings on marriage. Contemplate the following teachings of the Prophet on marriage and then you will see how ludicrous and baseless the comparison of Islam's teachings on marriage to infanticide is:

The Prophet said: 'The best of you is the one who is best to his wife. I am the best of you to his wife and I'm the best to my wife.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ad-Dârimî, Sahîh Ibn Hibbân)
The Prophet said: 'The most perfect of the believers in faith are the best of them in moral excellence, and the best of you are the kindest to their wives. (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'None but a noble man treats women in an honorable manner. And none but an ignoble treats women disgracefully' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
The Prophet said: 'I command you to be kind to women.' (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'The believer should not harbor hatred towards his wife. If he dislikes something in her, then surely he will be pleased with another quality in her.' (Sahîh Muslim)
The Prophet said to Abd-Allah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'Aas, who used to fast all day and pray all night: 'Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, was asked, "What did the Prophet used to do at home?" She answered, "he kept himself busy helping the members of his household, and when the time for prayer came, he would go out for the prayer". (Sahîh Bukhârî)
The Prophet said: 'Verily among the most evil of people with Allah in ranking on the Day of Resurrection is a man who goes to his wife and whose wife goes to him, and then he spreads her secrets.' (Sahîh Muslim, Musnad Ahmad, Sunan Abû Dawûd)
The Prophet said: "Iblîs (Satan) sets up his throne on water, then he sends out his armies of devils (to incite humans to do evil). The closest to him of these troops are the ones who cause the most tribulation. One of them comes and says, 'I have done such and such.' Iblîs says, 'You have not done enough.' Then another one comes and says, 'I never left him alone until I created trouble and caused division between him and his wife.' Then Iblîs comes close to this devil and says, 'How excellent you are!' " (Sahîh Muslim)

The Prophet said: 'If any man shows patience with his wife's bad temper, Allah will give him a reward similar to the reward of Ayyub (Job) for his patience, and if any woman shows patience with her husband's bad temper, Allah will give her a reward similar to the reward of Asiyah daughter of Muzahim, the wife of Pharoah (Cf. Qur'an 66:11).' (Al-Kabâ'ir of Adh-Dhahabî)
The Prophet said: 'Consult with women. Indeed, you have some rights over your women and they have some rights over you. It is their right on you that you provide for their food and clothing generously, and your right on them is that they do not let anyone whom you dislike in the house, walking upon your floor. (Sunan Ibn Mâjah, Sunan At-Tirmidhî)

The Prophet said: 'The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives.' (Musnad Ahmad)


I hope you can see now how bad of an analogy that was. No religion on earth has as many exhortations, commands and orders to men to be loving and compassionate and fair to their spouses as Islam does. Will you spurn the beautiful religion of God for some misguided path?

I'll continue the discussion on polygamy with you in the other thread.
Regards

 

[GARY]

Hi Ansar,
I have read through the posts, and I am sorry if the info is there I must have missed it, but what would be defined as "light physical force"?

Also, as more of a comment then a question. It seems that the idea is that a person that believes that the other person in the marriage is not able to realize that they are being irrational, can use light force to "snap" them back into reality. The danger I see in this is, often people think they are the one that is being rational and 'right', but what if they are the one that is actually in need of being 'snapped' into reality (Ok, I guess it did end up being a question)? It may just end up being a case of a husband snapping his wife into his reality. Or open the door for an escalated dispute. Just seems that if used at all, should be reserved for only those that have the wisdom. Unfortunatly, many believe themselves to posess wisdom that they really do not.

 

[chris4336]

Well if you are disgusted then that was the point of the example. I know that its an extreme example but the point was to try to help you see things from my point of view, which apparently failed miserably. Just because you think something is trivial and not an issue doesn't mean the whole world is going to see it like that. That is why I picked an example I knew you would be disgusted by. Its something that you know is not right no matter how many reasons are excuses people give. This is how I see permission of hitting your wife under whatever circumstances. Its just not right, I don't care if its lightly or if it doesn't leave a mark. This is not a figment of my imagination, its a permission given to men by God that I personally don't think is necessary.

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE STICK TO THE TOPIC RATHER THAN POSTING DOZENS OF ALLEGATIONS ON OTHER TOPICS. THERE ARE OTHER THREADS ON THE FORUM DEDICATED TO EACH OF THE OTHER ISSUES YOU RAISED. IF YOU ARE UNSURE WHERE TO FIND SUCH THREADS, PM A MOD.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi Gary,
Thanks for your post.

I have read through the posts, and I am sorry if the info is there I must have missed it, but what would be defined as "light physical force"?

Based on the Qur'an and Ahadith, the scholars have mentioned a few things. First, it should not be on the face or private parts. Second, it should in no way cause any harm or damage, such as that which results from violent strikes. It should never be the type of hit that leaves marks, like bruises or scratches etc. Thirdly, it should not be done in anger since then a person is likely to lose their self-control. A statement from Ibn Abbas shows how mild this is, when he said it is like using the miswâk.

And even any of this is only allowed in a situation of manifest indecency after all preceding methods have been tried.

Also, as more of a comment then a question. It seems that the idea is that a person that believes that the other person in the marriage is not able to realize that they are being irrational, can use light force to "snap" them back into reality. The danger I see in this is, often people think they are the one that is being rational and 'right', but what if they are the one that is actually in need of being 'snapped' into reality (Ok, I guess it did end up being a question)? It may just end up being a case of a husband snapping his wife into his reality. Or open the door for an escalated dispute. Just seems that if used at all, should be reserved for only those that have the wisdom. Unfortunatly, many believe themselves to posess wisdom that they really do not.

Yes, this is quite a fair comment. If people do not make good decisions, they will suffer as a result, whether that entails the deterioration of their marital relationship and family, or suffering legal consequences if they really go overboard. The Qur'an has given this dispensation to use when it will prove productive but it has also given a vast body of teachings on marital advice to guide one in making the best decisions and understanding the true loving nature of marriage. The use of such a dispensation does presuppose some judicious reasoning on the part of the one utilizing such a dispensation; there really is no way to say that "only people with wisdom can use this" except to offer a mass of teachings on marriage to guide one in making appropriate decisions.

Regards

 

[Umar001]

Its just not right,

Possible that you can pm me, I dont want to diviate the thread, but I want to ask, by what moral code is it not right? From what you have been taught? Who taught you it? What about a society that thinks "Its not right to believe in God" can they reject all religion based on that? Or other moral issues, "Its not right to call homosexuality a sin" based on that people reject God's mesage? So, how do you know your moral code is right?

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well if you are disgusted then that was the point of the example.

I explicitly stated that my disgust was more than just abhorring the issue of infanticide itself, but that I was disgusted at YOUR ridiculous comparison of this issue ot infanticide. Such an analogy is completely incoherent - especially, since you [seemingly] understood that we were discussing non-violent non-harmful behavior, as mild as a tap with a miswâk. And even all this only in a very specific scenario of manifest indecency. But all those detailed words of explanation seem to be completely lost on you when you throw out the window the fact that we are talking about a non-violent 'tap' as mild as a miswâk and that we are in no way even coming close to justifying domestic violence or any form of abuse. When I take the time to write these explanations and they go in one ear and out the other and the response is a ludicrous comparison to killing innocent children, can I be anything other than disgusted??

Even if you read your OWN posts from earlier in this thread, the problem was that you didn't see how this could be useful in such a scenario, NOT that you thought a mild tap was abusive. So why on earth would you compare it to something not only abusive but outright criminally heinous?!

I know that its an extreme example but the point was to try to help you see things from my point of view, which apparently failed miserably.

You're right, because such a view is based on deliberate distortion and willful ommission of context and basic facts.

Just because you think something is trivial and not an issue doesn't mean the whole world is going to see it like that.

Speaking from the point of rationality, it is self-evident that the fundamentals in life are our purpose behind our existence, the message of salvation, our destiny and afterlife, etc. etc. and certainly not whether a dispensation in such a specific scenario pertaining to such a specific stringent set of conditions could prove productive.

That is why I picked an example I knew you would be disgusted by.

It is not the example I'm talking about here, it is the fact that YOU made such a ludicrous comparison.

This is how I see permission of hitting your wife under whatever circumstances.

First of all, Islam prohibits any form of abuse, harm or domestic violence. Secondly, Islam also prohibits all such hitting and the Prophet pbuh showed us how it is not necessary. However, in the case of manifest indecency and after other methods of dialogue and seperation have been exhausted, only then is one able to use only the kind of light physical force that will prove productive and NOT cause any harm, but be as mild as the strike of a miswâk. There is NOTHING objectionable in this at all, and certainly no rational and objective grounds for one to reject Islam.

Note that this thread is specifically devoted to this topic. A classic tactic of anti-islamists is to try to raise as many spurious allegations as possible in one place so that their opponents do not have the opportunity to dissect and refute each one individually in detail. These kind of tactics don't fly here, so if you want to discuss other issues we can take them up in the countless other threads devoted to their discussion.

Regards

 

[chris4336]

I was not trying to derail the thread, just hoping that you would understand there are some things I find disgusting about Islam even after I read the threads.

The point was not that the actions were similiar. The point was so that you could maybe understand what it feels like to try to accept a religion with things in it that you find unacceptable.

You say that there is nothing objectionable in this permission to tap your wife but I disagree. I think the world could do without men being permitted to "strike" women with miswaks. It is not in my opinion an effective way of "snapping someone out of it," if it were we would see psychiatrists and therapists "tapping" their patients all the time. If it were effective, why doesn't the wife bring her husband to a third party mediator who will tap him? Why don't marriage counselors recommend it?

On top of that it has the great potential to be misused - Giving an angry, sexually frustrated man permission to "lightly tap" his wife so that she will understand the situation just doesn't seem like the best idea to me. I know that anything he does beyond this is not within the bounds of Islam, but isn't it common sense that he might over react (just like its common sense that woman shouldn't hit a man because he might be violent right back).

Why don't we just leave it as I find it an objectional ruling and you do not. That is my opinion and I am entitled to it even if you consider it illogical or irrational or whatever. Islam contains rulings that I personally consider objectional, so that is something that I personally have to deal with.

 

[Malaikah]

Giving an angry, sexually frustrated man permission to "lightly tap" his wife so that she will understand the situation just doesn't seem like the best idea to me.

We have already stated how many times that he is not allowed to be angry when he does it, and where on earth did this assumption of sexual frustration come from?

Chris, my mind honestly can not comprehend why you find this objectable. If it is because you think it can be abused, then this exists only in your mind and in the mind of those who deliberatly seek to twist the words of Alalh swt for their own twisted desires.

I see this ruling as a mercy from Allah swt on women where he forbids men to hit their wives in a way that men have been doing for only God knows how long. He only permits a light tap if is practical when other means have been exhausted.

About your argument that you were taught that men should never ever hit women no matter what... something tells me that hitting smeone lightly (i.e. in the Islamic way) doesnt even come under this kind of hitting. ^o)

 

[GARY]

We have already stated how many times that he is not allowed to be angry when he does it, and where on earth did this assumption of sexual frustration come from?

Chris, my mind honestly can not comprehend why you find this objectable. If it is because you think it can be abused, then this exists only in your mind and in the mind of those who deliberatly seek to twist the words of Alalh swt for their own twisted desires.

I see this ruling as a mercy from Allah swt on women where he forbids men to hit their wives in a way that men have been doing for only God knows how long. He only permits a light tap if is practical when other means have been exhausted.

About your argument that you were taught that men should never ever hit women no matter what... something tells me that hitting smeone lightly (i.e. in the Islamic way) doesnt even come under this kind of hitting. ^o)

Hi Cheese,
I am wondering if when you get married will you be ok with this? It is easy to say now, but what if your husband does this while you feel you are right in the dispute? And what happens if he does this and it doesn't "snap you into his reality"? What happens when you still see it your way?
Also, don't you think it will feel a bit humiliating? Won't it be embarassing, and feel like you have been disrespected (especially if you feel you are still in the right)?

 

[chris4336]

I thought he wasn't allowed to hit out of anger, but I can't imagine that he wouldn't be angry with the situation if his wife is behaving so badly? I also thought he might be sexual frustrated since first he has to remove himself from his wife, but you are right this might not always be the case.

Again which is why I said its my opinion. I find it objectionable because there was always a choice to just forbid men from hitting women lightly, and I'm just cannot understand why the choice was made to permit it. That is basically it.

Would you ever hit your mother, even if it was really lightly with a miswak so that she might grasp the severity of the situation?

 

[GARY]

That "she might grasp the severity of the situation" part kind of makes me wonder. It assumes that the husband always knows best. There are more than a few men out there that are dim-wits and if not for the wisdom of their wives would be a mess.

 

[chris4336]

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

Anyway as it was explained to me previously on this thread there are times when hitting a man might be useful to help him see the error of his ways but in this case she is not supposed to hit him (because of fear of retaliation) rather bring him to some kind of third party mediator.

 

[Malaikah]

Hi Cheese,
I am wondering if when you get married will you be ok with this? It is easy to say now, but what if your husband does this while you feel you are right in the dispute? And what happens if he does this and it doesn't "snap you into his reality"? What happens when you still see it your way?
Also, don't you think it will feel a bit humiliating? Won't it be embarassing, and feel like you have been disrespected (especially if you feel you are still in the right)?

Hi Gary,

If I were right, then I would not let it even get past stage two, I would do what the wife is adviced to do when she is in the right- get a third person to help me and settle the matter between us inshaallah.

Also, no I do not find it humiliating, at the moment I am more worried about having done something so bad that my husband feels he needs to do the steps!!!ffended: (And good on him if he does the steps rather than just acting on his own desires)

Would you ever hit your mother, even if it was really lightly with a miswak so that she might grasp the severity of the situation?

Er I have absolutely no right to hit my mother, that is for her husband to do! And God forbid I would be more upset that my mother had acted so badly that my dad would feel if necessary to take these steps and I wouldnt even think twice if he tapped her with a toothbrush!! My thoughts would be with her rebelling against Allah swt and I would be happy that my dad is doing what Allah swt told him to do in such a situation!

That "she might grasp the severity of the situation" part kind of makes me wonder. It assumes that the husband always knows best. There are more than a few men out there that are dim-wits and if not for the wisdom of their wives would be a mess.

Thats the point Gary, the step are only to be done if the husband is right and the wife is wrong. If the wife feels she is right then their is nothing stopping her from seeking the help of a family member.

 

[Malaikah]

Gary - you must have missed the whole idea that men are the leaders of the family and wives are obedient to their husbands. He should consult his wife but the decisions rest with him. So in the case of these dim wits let's hope they take their wife's advice.

May god help us all- when it comes to dim wits, no women is safe, no matter what religion the man belongs to because he will always have the ability to overpower her (Also, Even non-mulsims assume the husband to have some level of authority over the wife, with christians it is a part of their religion, the same as Islam, and with others it is something assumed even if they dont admit it). That is why it is so important to pick our husbands carefully.

 

[GARY]

Anyway as it was explained to me previously on this thread there are times when hitting a man might be useful to help him see the error of his ways but in this case she is not supposed to hit him (because of fear of retaliation) rather bring him to some kind of third party mediator.

But if the proper way is only a tap with no pain involved, then why would she need to fear retaliation?
Could the mediator be her older/bigger brother?

Hi Gary,
Also, no I do not find it humiliating, at the moment I am more worried about having done something so bad that my husband feels he needs to do the steps!!!ffended: (And good on him if he does the steps rather than just acting on his own desires)
.

This is where one of the potential problems arises. What if you don't feel that you have done anything "bad"? What if your husband decides many things you do are "bad", while you feel you are being good?

Thats the point Gary, the step are only to be done if the husband is right and the wife is wrong. If the wife feels she is right then their is nothing stopping her from seeking the help of a family member.

What about the husband that thinks he is right when he is not?

It's just my opinion, and obviously we will disagree, but I see the "steps" as something that is meant for an imaginary, magical, perfect world. It reminds me of the movie 'Pleasantville'. It is extremely unlikely that a man that cannot have a rational, reasonable discussion with his wife to settle a marital dispute, is going to be able to rationally, without anger, follow a set of steps, that leads to him being in a position that allows him to give her a tap. If he lacks the ability to reason with her, and is prone to 'tapping', he is likely going to be an angry man. That tap, will be more of a 'slap'.

 

[chris4336]

May god help us all- when it comes to dim wits, no women is safe

Haha finally something we can agree on!