Will Sharia Law ever work in Britain?

[Pygoscelis]

I suspect they'd stone the child too.

By the way, isn't it time to upgrade your methods of capital punishment? I mean stoning is more than a little out dated, no? At least move on to the guillotine.

 

[Nawal89]

I suspect they'd stone the child too.

By the way, isn't it time to upgrade your methods of capital punishment? I mean stoning is more than a little out dated, no? At least move on to the guillotine.

The child in this case is innocent. Please stop thinking the worst. In islam we do not carry the sin of others.

back to topic:
I dont see sharia law working there. Islam has to be in the peoples heart first before any sharia law can be established.

 

[aamirsaab]

I was talking about this with my muslim friend some time ago. The imagined situation is like this- man has an affair with a woman. Both are in other marriages. And from this affair a child is born. Some people call it "b@#$%d" child. What would happen to this child in real islamic state?

The child would receive no punishment - he/she hasn't commited a crime. The parents would be the ones taken into a court proceeding. This being said, human beings are nasty pieces of work and would most certainly insult that child. Under sharia law however, there is no punishment for victims - it's only criminals who are punished.

I'll do a mini essay on sharia punishments, explaining why they are so harsh. Hopefully it will be of some use. I should have it up by the weekend.

 

[crayon]

I suspect they'd stone the child too.

Hilarious.
(hilarious translates to pathetic, btw)

Nothing would happen to the child. Why on earth would it, he did nothing wrong?

 

[Snowflake]

Will it work in britain? Yeah.
We first need to get our fellow muslim brothers and sisters obeying Islam properly before we even attempt sharia law in the UK.

I agree. If muslims aren't practicing, shariah law will fail since it will hold no value for them and they will simply turn to exisiting state law, esp. when it comes to having their hands chopped off for stealing.


asalam alaikum wr wb.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm a little surprised at those Muslims saying it won't work. I'm taking a logical view of Islam being a religion for all times and places. Using that thinking then why would not the perfect law of the perfect religion work in the UK?. I'm not saying it would enter here overnight - far from it. However take Spain as an example - not sure how much Shariah was there but it was under Muslim rule once. Seems like a little bit of a silly question with all due respect. Its Allah's Law (The Shariah) and Allah's Earth if He wants it to work here it will.

 

[aamirsaab]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm a little surprised at those Muslims saying it won't work. I'm taking a logical view of Islam being a religion for all times and places. Using that thinking then why would not the perfect law of the perfect religion work in the UK?. I'm not saying it would enter here overnight - far from it. However take Spain as an example - not sure how much Shariah was there but it was under Muslim rule once. Seems like a little bit of a silly question with all due respect. Its Allah's Law (The Shariah) and Allah's Earth if He wants it to work here it will.

The difficulty is getting true sharia law (with a caliphate) implimented. Until society's perception of sharia changes, this is not going to happen any time soon.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I have a coiple of questions:
1. What is the punsihment for aduletry if only 1 witness is provided. does it change with the number of witnesses? Is it harsher, when there's 2 or 3?
2. What happens if there are no witnesses?
3. Whats the penalty if one of the parties admits to comminting aduletry. What ahppens if both parties admit?

4. I asked this qurstion before but didn't get a proper reply.
How is evidence other than eyewitnessing treated? Does photographic or forensic evidence count? To what extent? If adultery was proven beyond reasonable doubt using such evidence, however not providing a single witness, would the adulterers still be punished or even stoned to death?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I voted no, I think shariah is great for a country with at least a majority of muslims. Otherwise it would create to many insurgencies. Take a simple rule the prohibition of selling/buynig/consuming alcohol would be greatly protested against. Britain just isn't ready for it at this point

 

[aamirsaab]

I have a coiple of questions:
1. What is the punsihment for aduletry if only 1 witness is provided. does it change with the number of witnesses? Is it harsher, when there's 2 or 3?
2. What happens if there are no witnesses?

It requires 4 witnesses for it even to get into court. This is to prevent someone from calling another an adulterer and going straight to court to have him/her stoned (i.e a witchhunt).

The amount of witnesses doesn't directly affect the punishment. The punishment will reflect the severity of the case, in majority of the cases. For instance if a man is on trial for adultery and his crime is say intercourse with different woman (that are unlawful to him and hence it can be called adultery) then (depending on the judge) he'd get the stoning punishment. If say it was merely a kiss on the lips with another woman (other than his wife or anyone that would actually fit under the adultery umbrella) then he would have a less harsher sentence. It really depends on the case and the judge - which is actually just the same with the UK courts work.

3. Whats the penalty if one of the parties admits to comminting aduletry.

I don't actually know - I have yet to hear of a case such as this. I guess it would depend on the case and judge though.

What ahppens if both parties admit?

Not 100% sure. I think they'd have to be treated as a seperate case. I haven't read a specific ruling for that specific case - it'd therefore most likely depend on the scenario and judge's discretion.

4. I asked this qurstion before but didn't get a proper reply.
How is evidence other than eyewitnessing treated? Does photographic or forensic evidence count? To what extent?...

As I said, 4 witnesses is a must for it to get into court - otherwise the judge can (and probably will) throw it out. The rest of the stuff would all count but a must is 4 witnesses for the process to even begin.

If adultery was proven beyond reasonable doubt using such evidence, however not providing a single witness, would the adulterers still be punished or even stoned to death?

In a hypothetical case (where no witnesses are available), yes a punishment would still apply if it was proven using those methods - but this is rather an extreme case and would depend on the judge. Overall, the whole point of that ruling on adultery is to punish the criminal and prevent it from happening again - the importance is dealing with the crime and any help or aid to this is more than welcome.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

As I said, 4 witnesses is a must for it to get into court - otherwise the judge can (and probably will) throw it out. The rest of the stuff would all count but a must is 4 witnesses for the process to even begin.
In a hypothetical case (where no witnesses are available), yes a punishment would still apply if it was proven using those methods - but this is rather an extreme case and would depend on the judge. Overall, the whole point of that ruling on adultery is to punish the criminal and prevent it from happening again - the importance is dealing with the crime and any help or aid to this is more than welcome.

If 4 witnesses are required to get to court, no evidence matters. Can a judge call a trial knowing there aren't any witnesses?

 

[aamirsaab]

If 4 witnesses are required to get to court, no evidence matters.

Evidence still has to be presented. It's not just: ''oh I have 4 witnesses that you cheated on your wife, it's time to get stoned''. It still goes on as a normal court proceeding. You still have to prove it to the judge. 4 witnesses just helps the victim's side (basically acting as a handicap for the defence team). It also prevents people going on witch hunts as I said in the previous post.

Can a judge call a trial knowing there aren't any witnesses?

Depends on the case really. I know I said before that it requires 4 witnesses but it does actually depend on the case.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

If 4 witnesses are required to get to court, no evidence matters. Can a judge call a trial knowing there aren't any witnesses?

Whatsthepoint - you've steered way off topic going into very specific rules requiring knowledge of scholars to comment on it. The topic was general about Shariah working in the UK - not the rules on punishment etc. --- just a reminder (not a jab at you) --- almost all do it mate...

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Evidence still has to be presented. It's not just: ''oh I have 4 witnesses that you cheated on your wife, it's time to get stoned''. It still goes on as a normal court proceeding. You still have to prove it to the judge. 4 witnesses just helps the victim's side (basically acting as a handicap for the defence team). It also prevents people going on witch hunts as I said in the previous post.

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that if one needs to provide 4 witnesses in order to get their case to court, and fails to do so, all the evidence one may have is useless. I still not sure whether this is the case, so I asked the question about a judge.

Depends on the case really. I know I said before that it requires 4 witnesses but it does actually depend on the case.

How exactly? Can the court view the evidence and call the trial afterwards?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Whatsthepoint - you've steered way off topic going into very specific rules requiring knowledge of scholars to comment on it. The topic was general about Shariah working in the UK - not the rules on punishment etc. --- just a reminder (not a jab at you) --- almost all do it mate...

The last 2 pages are almsot entirely dedicated to stoning, so I thought I'd join the debate..

 

[aamirsaab]

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that if one needs to provide 4 witnesses in order to get their case to court, and fails to do so, all the evidence one may have is useless. I still not sure whether this is the case, so I asked the question about a judge.

I guess therefore it'd have to be upto the Judge's discretion. But not 100% sure.

How exactly? Can the court view the evidence and call the trial afterwards?

To be honest, I don't know. I'll try and find some stuff on it though because it is a very good point. I'll probably have to consult an imaam about it cus I cannot for the life of me find those specifics on the internet. Maybe there's a book at home or on ebay etc.

Here is an interesting piece from wiki:
''In accordance with hadith, stoning to death is the penalty for married men and women who commit adultery. In addition, there are several conditions related to the person who commits it that must be met. One of the difficult ones is that the punishment cannot be enforced unless there is a confession of the person, or four male eyewitnesses who each saw the act being committed. All of these must be met under the scrutiny of judicial authority[100] For unmarried men and women, the punishment prescribed in the Qur'an and hadith is 100 lashes.[101]

Similarly, under Sharia a woman who is accused of adultery cannot be punished unless there are four male eyewitnesses to prove she did commit adultery.[citation needed] The "four witness" standard comes from the Qur'an itself, a revelation Muhammad announced in response to accusations of adultery leveled at his wife, Aisha: "Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah."[Qur'an 24:13]''

Edit: I just orderd a sharia law text book off ebay. Hopefully it will help with the many questions that you folk and certainly myself have on the matter!

 

[barrio79]

Re: It feels like life imprisonment

I voted no, but it might work in Australia, cos were a fair dinkum free society!

yeah you rtight but only in Sydney the rest would want to stay british

 

[Afifa]

one things for sure if it was wrking here it would be one better place than it is now

 

[sharknet]

aamirsaab said...
Name me one muslim woman who thinks they have no rights due to Islam or that they are treated unjustly because of Islam.
__________________
I cant think of one muslim woman who truly believes in Islam and is committed to allah that will tell you se is treated unjustly..However you will find that there are some women who are born muslims and are not really committed and usually have an unjust husband that will say they arent treated justly and the west will latch on to these people as proof of oppression .....Its interesting that any woman who has reverted to Islam especially western reverts will tell you its the opposite...women are treated with respect....hence why they reverted...but the critics will tell you she was brain washed, like a gun was put to her head to revert to Islam...

here is a newspaper report that might help

Education to counter honour killings



June 14, 2008
Advertisement

LONDON: Lessons about "honour" killings and forced marriage should be a statutory requirement in British schools and become a compulsory part of the sex and relationships curriculum, MPs say.

A report from the House of Commons home affairs select committee said education on the issues seemed to be "at best variable, and at worst non-existent", with some schools apparently resistant to discussing them for fear of offending parents.

It said there was evidence to suggest children were in danger of being removed from school or further education and forced into marriage.

Other recommendations include a specialised victim protection program, similar to witness protection, for women fleeing such violence and refusing visa applications for the prospective spouses of reluctant brides or bridegrooms.

The committee acknowledged significant steps had been taken to stop domestic and honour-based violence; however, it criticised the British Government's focus on the criminal justice system.

The committee's chairman, Keith Vaz, said: "We are still failing victims in different ways: through a shortage of refuge space; through the ignorance or disbelief of professionals; or by allowing the continued abuse of some of those forced into marriage by granting visas to their spouses."

There needed to be a shift in focus towards education, prevention and early intervention, he said. "We educate our young people about the dangers of drugs or road safety but not, it seems, about domestic and honour-based violence and forced marriage, which will affect a quarter of all women in their lifetime and many men, too."

Posters and other publicity material should be routinely sent out to schools rather than waiting for a specific request from teachers, the report said.

The MPs also suggested there should be a public education campaign about domestic violence, along the lines of a road safety campaign, and that doctors and nurses undergo training in identifying victims of domestic violence.

 

[crayon]

here is a newspaper report that might help

Education to counter honour killings



June 14, 2008
Advertisement

LONDON: Lessons about "honour" killings and forced marriage should be a statutory requirement in British schools and become a compulsory part of the sex and relationships curriculum, MPs say.

A report from the House of Commons home affairs select committee said education on the issues seemed to be "at best variable, and at worst non-existent", with some schools apparently resistant to discussing them for fear of offending parents.

It said there was evidence to suggest children were in danger of being removed from school or further education and forced into marriage.

Other recommendations include a specialised victim protection program, similar to witness protection, for women fleeing such violence and refusing visa applications for the prospective spouses of reluctant brides or bridegrooms.

The committee acknowledged significant steps had been taken to stop domestic and honour-based violence; however, it criticised the British Government's focus on the criminal justice system.

The committee's chairman, Keith Vaz, said: "We are still failing victims in different ways: through a shortage of refuge space; through the ignorance or disbelief of professionals; or by allowing the continued abuse of some of those forced into marriage by granting visas to their spouses."

There needed to be a shift in focus towards education, prevention and early intervention, he said. "We educate our young people about the dangers of drugs or road safety but not, it seems, about domestic and honour-based violence and forced marriage, which will affect a quarter of all women in their lifetime and many men, too."

Posters and other publicity material should be routinely sent out to schools rather than waiting for a specific request from teachers, the report said.

The MPs also suggested there should be a public education campaign about domestic violence, along the lines of a road safety campaign, and that doctors and nurses undergo training in identifying victims of domestic violence.

That's culture, NOT islam.