Women as Prophets?

[Futuwwa]

Sister, I yield to your greater knowledge of Arabic.

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are. Like, if a calendar told you the sun will rise at 7:34 on a specific day, would you deem the calendar unreliable from spouting unscientific nonsense about the sun rising (ergo moving around the earth)? Or would you simply conclude that it isn't making a statement about astronomy in the first place and is just saying that dawn will break at that time?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Assalam-O-Alaikum

Is there a reason why there are no female prophets?

Well there is no evidence that all prophets were male, Allah only says that He sends messengers to every nation [e.g 16:36 And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger,.....] regardless of gender.

But the best woman of all nation [3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.] , Mary (AS) was not a prophet.

A short answer; it's not appropriate for women to be prophets. Women don't possess the characteristics to be leaders over nations. This not to degrade women but they cannot raise children and lead an army or manage the affairs of their people while running the home. Men have always been the leaders and have been given the strengths to bear the hardships and responsibilities that comes with being a leader. Male characteristics are in harmony with the requirements of a prophet while a woman would have to go out of her way to fulfil the same responsibilities.

 

[Insaanah]

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are.

I am assuming that you don't mean to imply that some details in the Qur'an are "irrelevant". Glorified and Exalted be the Revealer of the Qur'an above that.

Lets take for one minute some ayaat with the word rajul/rijaal in them and apply your above logic that the words aren't necessarily literally true and are contextually irrelevant, and see where that takes us.

First example, from Surah al-Ahzaab:

مَّا كَانَ مُحَمَّدٌ أَبَآ أَحَدٍ مّن رِّجَالِكُمْ وَلَـكِن رَّسُولَ اللَّهِ وَخَاتَمَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيماً

Sahih International
Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing. (33:40).

Using the above logic, let us not take the meaning to be what is clearly written, and let us take it in a non-literal sense, and inlude rijaal to mean men and women. That would mean that Prophet Muhammad :saws: is not the father of any men or women amongst you. That would mean that he :saws: had no children. In reality this is not true, because he had daughters. And that is why Allah specifically used the word rijaal, specifically to say that he was not the father of any man.

Second example, also from Surah al-Ahzaab:

مَّا جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لِرَجُلٍ مِّن قَلْبَيْنِ فِى جَوْفِهِ وَمَا جَعَلَ أَزْوَجَكُمُ اللاَّئِى تُظَـهِرُونَ مِنْهُنَّ أُمَّهَـتِكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ أَدْعِيَآءَكُمْ أَبْنَآءَكُمْ ذَلِكُمْ قَوْلُكُم بِأَفْوَهِكُمْ وَاللَّهُ يَقُولُ الْحَقَّ وَهُوَ يَهْدِى السَّبِيلَ

Pickthall
Allah hath not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath He made your wives whom ye declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath He made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouths. But Allah saith the truth and He showeth the way.(33:4)

Now, that is a verse that people would say, you certainly can't take that literally and that even though the word rijaal (men) has been used, it would apply to both i.e. neither men nor women have two hearts inside them. Think again. The Quran is a literary miracle for a reason, and Allah has chosen His words exactly. There are occasions when women have two or more hearts inside them - when they are pregnant. At that time, they have at least one other heart inside them apart from their own, which is that of their unborn baby. Sometimes she may have three or even four hearts inside her, if Allah so wishes. That is why Allah has specifically used the word rajul here. Subhaanallah.

I hope you can see the dangerous slippery slope the logic that you are suggesting is. You cannot stretch the meaning of the Qur'an, of your own volition, to something that is not there. We cannot make up our own interpretation, decide for our own selves what to take literally and what does not fit into the context that we personally would like it to fit in to.

I leave you with a quote from the tafsir of Ibn Kathir, for the first ayah I quoted in my first post in this thread, (12:109):

"All of the Prophets are Humans and Men

Allah states that He only sent Prophets and Messengers from among men and not from among women, as this Ayah clearly states. Allah did not reveal religious and legislative laws to any woman from among the daughters of Adam. This is the belief of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah. Shaykh Abu Al-Hasan, `Ali bin Isma`il Al-Ash`ari mentioned that it is the view of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah, that there were no female Prophets, but there were truthful believers from among women. Allah mentions the most honorable of the truthful female believers, Maryam, the daughter of `Imran, when He said,

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَام

(The Messiah﴿ 'Isa, (son of Maryam (Mary)), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a Siddiqah (truthful believer). They both used to eat food. (5:75) Therefore, the best description Allah gave her is Siddiqah. Had she been a Prophet, Allah would have mentioned this fact when He was praising her qualities and honor. Therefore, Mary was a truthful believer according to the words of the Qur'an."

Source

 

[Ramadhan]

First you said this:

That's taking things out of context a bit.

How did you know that sister insanaah took things out of context when you don't even understand arabic, let alone qur'an arabic?
And that you have not even read the Qur'an yourself?

The purpose of those verses is not to make a statement regarding the gender of prophets.

This is serious gross misunderstanding of the Qur'an which may stem from incorrect belief/tawheed. I suggest you to learn from reputable Islamic sources for your study of Islam. True, the main purpose of the verses may not to announce be that messengers were all men (or male gender of human beings, if you prefer to be more accurate), Allah purposefully use the word "rijaal" and nothing in the Qur'an is pointless and without purpose and it is the speech of Allah, so it is impossible that Allah SWT chose a particular word but actually meant another.

I'd like to know if the original classical Arabic uses a male-exclusive term (rather than, say, a masculine/generic term, just as "men" in English may either mean males or just generally humans).

Yusufali or Picthal translation is not the Qur'an. Just because you read from english translation where it says "men" which could mean either "male", or "persons", does not mean the actual word in the qur'an is similarly vague.
Here's the translation of the verses in Bahasa Indonesia:
QS. 12:109
Kami tidak mengutus sebelum kamu, melainkan orang laki-laki yang Kami berikan wahyu kepadanya diantara penduduk negeri. Maka tidakkah mereka bepergian di muka bumi lalu melihat bagaimana kesudahan orang-orang sebelum mereka (yang mendustakan rasul) dan sesungguhnya kampung akhirat adalah lebih baik bagi orang-orang yang bertakwa. Maka tidakkah kamu memikirkannya?
QS. 16:43
Dan Kami tidak mengutus sebelum kamu, kecuali orang-orang lelaki yang Kami beri wahyu kepada mereka; maka bertanyalah kepada orang yang mempunyai pengetahuan jika kamu tidak mengetahui,
QS. 21:7
Kami tiada mengutus rasul rasul sebelum kamu (Muhammad), melainkan beberapa orang-laki-laki yang Kami beri wahyu kepada mereka, maka tanyakanlah olehmu kepada orang-orang yang berilmu, jika kamu tiada mengetahui.

all of them states "laki" which means "the male of human species", and can never be used for female nor for genderless persons.

My point was rather, it is a natural feature of all languages and forms of communication that what is stated isn't necessarily literally true regarding details that are irrelevant for the point made. If such strict literal truth in contextually irrelevant things was adhered to, all texts would be at least five times longer than they are. Like, if a calendar told you the sun will rise at 7:34 on a specific day, would you deem the calendar unreliable from spouting unscientific nonsense about the sun rising (ergo moving around the earth)? Or would you simply conclude that it isn't making a statement about astronomy in the first place and is just saying that dawn will break at that time?

I don't know whats this rambling about, but all your talk about free-for-all reinterpretations of the Qur'an reminds me of several Qur'an verses:
"Those to whom We gave the book (the Qur’an) recite it as it should be recited, they are the ones that believe therein. And who disbelieves in it (the Qur’an), those are the losers." (QS. 2:121)
"And thus We have sent it down as a Qur’an in Arabic, and have explained therein in detail the warnings, in order that they may have taqwa, or that it may cause them to learn a lesson from it." (QS. Taha:113)
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] "A book of verses of which are well expounded, a discourse in Arabic for people who understand..."(41:3); "We have revealed the Qur’an in Arabic so that you may understand."(43:3); "The speech of a man they imply is alien, while this is purest Arabic." (16:103) "And the (Qur’an) is a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds ... in plain Arabic." (26:192-195); "We have revealed a discourse in Arabic so that you may understand." (12:2).

And I am shocked that you consider details of the Qur'an are unimportant and irrelevant.
In the other threads http://www.islamicboard.com/showthread.php?t=134305431[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] you also did similar if not worse: you assigned your own interpretation of the word "kuffaar" (QS. 60:10) to support opinion that muslima is allowed to marry non-muslim men, and you claimed that divorce is a sin although there is a whole surah named "talaq (divorce)" and dedicated to set regulations on divorce.
Are you sure you are not taking Islamic lesson from a catholic?

Alhamdulillah, Allah has promised and preserve the Qur'an for us so we know right away when people are trying to misquote, mistranslate or misinterpret the verses. Even then, there are still people who keep trying to do just that. Can you believe what would have happened if we dont have Qur'an preserved?


[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Ramadhan]

Pickthall Allah hath not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath He made your wives whom ye declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath He made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouths. But Allah saith the truth and He showeth the way.(33:4)

Now, that is a verse that people would say, you certainly can't take that literally and that even though the word rijaal (men) has been used, it would apply to both i.e. neither men nor women have two hearts inside them. Think agan. The Quran is a literary miracle for a reason, and Allah has chosen His words exactly. There are occasions when women have two or more hearts inside them - when they are pregnant. At that time, they have at least one other heart inside them apart from their own, which is that of their unborn baby. Sometimes she may have three or even four hearts inside her, if Allah so wishes. That is why Allah has specifically used the word rajul here. Subhaanallah.

Subhanallah!
I'm still so fascinated and thoroughly humbled to be reminded again of such miracle
Jazakallah khayr for sharing this verse with us.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I don’t buy the argument that women don’t have character to be a leader and being a mother excuse. Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all. Just leave the explanation to Allah (swt).

Is there a woman prophet? No


why? I dont know..

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I don’t buy the argument that women don’t have character to be a leader and being a mother excuse. Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all. Just leave the explanation to Allah (swt).

Is there a woman prophet? No


why? I dont know..

You're entitled to your view. It doesn't mean that women cannot be leaders at all, they can be leaders amongst themselves or for small groups which should generally be amongst women but as for leading nations, this has always been for men. From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders. They are known for decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart etc. This doesn't necessarily make them any better than females but this is a characteristics that shines amongst men.

From a religious view the condition to be a leader in high positions such as imam and leader is restricted to men. Allah says in the Quran, "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other…” [Nisa 4:34] and the Prophet saws1 clearly said "No people who appoint a woman as their leader will ever prosper." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 13/53). There are many other evidences like these and they are all consistent with my earlier saying that women were not chosen as prophets for such reasons. If these are not a lack of characteristics then what else is it?

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned. Btw I don’t dispute the high position like Imam are restricted to men in Islam.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned. Btw I don’t dispute the high position like Imam are restricted to men in Islam.

I'm not arguing with the fact that women are given such positions. Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another. The only reason why history hasn't shown terrible examples of women leadership is simply because of the scarcity of female leaders throughout history. Allah has created each gender for a specific purpose so I'll let the sands of time speak for itself.

P.S

An 'iman' isn't just the leader of the prayer at the mosque.

w/salam

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

why? I dont know..

Perhaps they may have gotten harassed more? Perhaps at the time that the Prophets were sent, society didn't take women seriously. Perhaps they would have not been taken seriously due to their gender such as men taking it as an excuse to look at them, etc.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

I'm not arguing with the fact that women are given such positions. Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another. The only reason why history hasn't shown terrible examples of women leadership is simply because of the scarcity of female leaders throughout history. Allah has created each gender for a specific purpose so I'll let the sands of time speak for itself.

P.S

An 'iman' isn't just the leader of the prayer at the mosque.

w/salam

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers. Millions are not and cannot be mothers. For those women what other aspect of their lives do they need to focus on? And what about the single mothers, some of whom are able successfully to focus on both?

Sadly you think the only a women are here to pop out babies and maintain their homes. Islam may prevent women from leading a country, running a mosque and be a judge.

Islam hasn’t prevented women from owning their own property, having their own business, running a whole government department whether it is health, economy, employment etc, be a lead surgeon, headmaster, professor, scientist, dentist etc All of which needs to have the characteristic you have already mentioned and some of those jobs involve leading men.

And your point about focusing one aspect of life and falling deficient on another can also be said about men. How many times have you heard marriage breakdown purely because the man is focusing more on his work than family life?

I did not say you deny women are given such position. I made those points to illustrate there are some women that are able to lead a whole group of people because they do have the characteristic to do so. I am simply saying that we don’t know the reason why Allah (swt) created those rules. And I also simply saying you should not generalise one gender. Women are not homogenous group with same characteristic. Not all of us get the chance or desire to be mothers, not all us work or are housewives, not all of us will ever get married or is married.

Btw I know imam do more than lead prayers.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

You're taking what I said out of context. I am all for women being educated, knowledgeable and respected in their fields. It puts a smile on my face to see sisters, as well as brothers, excelling in their fields and bringing benefit to their families and communities. My specific mention was of leading nations, to lead an entire country. Allah (swt) did not make a mistake when he made men the breadwinners and the women the home maintainers, which leads to my other point. Since men are created as the breadwinners it only befits their nature to be leaders because of all what leadership entails, and not women. This is what men do best. Women were created for a different purpose, something which no man can do better than a woman. If women seek what men were created for then who will do what needs to be done at home? Society will be in an imbalance. One of the best of women that the Prophet saws1 specifically mentioned was his daughter, Fatima. She did not have a business or career but was the maintainer of her home. Can the women of today bring something forward something that Allah's messenger was not given?

It goes without saying that if she needs a job then no one is stopping her.

I really don't have a lot of time to discuss this in detail because I have things I need to be getting on with. But my point is that a woman doesn't have to just to the cooking and cleaning or take care of kids while at home. She can do a lot more than that. A single mother or women who cannot have children can do a lot more than chasing a career or becoming a business woman if she seeks to define herself. I don't see the need to accept positions over men, it's a job I don't expect her to do very well and I'm speaking from experience. I'm not convinced.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

It is not just about being educated, knowledgeable and respected in their fields. I was pointing out there are women who are leaders in these field. My main point was disputing the characteristic you listed as only men have. I simply pointed out some women do display those same characteristic everyday of their lives including in the profession I have mentioned.

Prophet (pbuh) first wife was a business woman and the differences between the wives are preciously the point I was making! Women are not the same and not all are suited to stay at home either.

Does the point you are making goes further than leading a country? Your last point doesn’t make sense, what you are saying? Women should be excluded from other high positions other than what is already excluded from Allah (swt)?

I agree that there are good reason not known to us why women are excluded from certain roles which are very few roles btw. I just don’t agree with you about that only men are known for their

Decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart,

I tired to emphasise that women do display those skills in other professions. So I did not take what you said out of context. I think you misunderstood me.

 

[GuestFellow]

Believe me I know plenty that can lead perfectly well and some of whom are mothers and also there millions of women who cant to have children at all.

Women can be leaders but this depends on the work itself. I think this needs to be taken into account. For example, a women can be head of an accounting department but this would be completely different if a women were to become leader of a country.

From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders.

How would you define "stronger" and "dominant" in this context? How would you measure these two qualities from a man to a women?

I was left in charge of a project where I had to lead 50 men and women to do their jobs and manage to do the job well. And I know women who are in similar position where they also have to be leader for both men and women. I have seen women display the characteristic you have mentioned.

Your personal experiences are not relevant. We are talking about a women in position of governing a country.

Perhaps they may have gotten harassed more? Perhaps at the time that the Prophets were sent, society didn't take women seriously. Perhaps they would have not been taken seriously due to their gender such as men taking it as an excuse to look at them, etc.

It would have been dangerous, indeed. I think this may be one of the main reasons.

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers.

Can you point this out in his post? I failed to spot this.

Islam hasn’t prevented women from owning their own property, having their own business, running a whole government department whether it is health, economy, employment etc, be a lead surgeon, headmaster, professor, scientist, dentist etc

How about the military or defence?

 

[Salahudeen]

How about the military or defence?

And the salah.

 

[Rhubarb Tart]

Women can be leaders but this depends on the work itself. I think this needs to be taken into account. For example, a women can be head of an accounting department but this would be completely different if a women were to become leader of a country.

That was my point though, women do have some leadership skills regardless.

Your personal experiences are not relevant. We are talking about a women in position of governing a country.

Actually it was in response to the brother saying that only men had characteristic like decision making etc. My example showed that wasn’t true at all and it also showed I managed to handle both genders not just women too. So it was also in response to the brother saying women can only adequately lead other women.

Can you point this out in his post? I failed to spot this.

Without having to stray off topic I'll leave with you something to ponder over, it's an established fact that when you focus on one aspect of life you fall deficient on another.

My response to that statement was:

But you assume all women will be or is able to be mothers. Millions are not and cannot be mothers. For those women what other aspect of their lives do they need to focus on?

How about the military or defence?

Don’t know Islamic perspective about women being involved in military and defence. Since they can’t be leading a nation, they can’t obviously lead military because it is part of the responsibility of leading a nation. I guess people can give that reason why prophets were not women because they were physically weaker to fight in war.
I am not arguing with what Islam says. I just disagree with the idea that women do not have the skills to lead when some clearly do.

Goodnight

 

[Maryan0]

I did not say you deny women are given such position. I made those points to illustrate there are some women that are able to lead a whole group of people because they do have the characteristic to do so. I am simply saying that we don’t know the reason why Allah (swt) created those rules. And I also simply saying you should not generalise one gender. Women are not homogenous group with same characteristic. Not all of us get the chance or desire to be mothers, not all us work or are housewives, not all of us will ever get married or is married.

I agree.

I don't like generalizations myself.
Salam

 

[IAmZamzam]

There have been matriarchal societies here and there in history, where a woman was more likely to be taken seriously than a man, and so it would not be at all surprising if there were female prophets there. God sent them everywhere.

 

[CosmicPathos]

I think your example of leading 50 men and women is not a representative of the possibility of you ruling 50 million people. Quite an irrational comparison.

 

[Trumble]

You're entitled to your view. It doesn't mean that women cannot be leaders at all, they can be leaders amongst themselves or for small groups which should generally be amongst women but as for leading nations, this has always been for men. From a rational point, men are the stronger and more dominant of the two genders. They are known for decision making, decisiveness, thinking with the head and not the heart etc. This doesn't necessarily make them any better than females but this is a characteristics that shines amongst men.

Tell that to Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Margaret Thatcher, Catherine the Great, Isabella I of Castille, Joan of Arc, Boudicca ....

Prophets may well be a seperate issue, but as far as leaders in other contexts... what a load of sexist cr*p. Sorry.