Women Clergy?

[ATR]

Jews have their synagogues segregated like muslims do and i've seen this myself.

Christian nuns have to cover their their heads which is the same concept as the hijab. And if they do not cover their heads then they should shave their heads.

The concept is more or less the same.

No it is not. Far from it. You talk only of Nuns. Firstly not all Nuns cover their heads. Secondly Catholics do not allow women clergy not for the reasons Islam gives but because Jesus was male! No Christian denomination, not a single one, does not allow women to preach because it will "distract" men. In fact most Christian denominations allow female clergy. And the arguments, as I have said numerous times, have nothing to do with distract. Primarily they deal with Jesus being male and the priest being a representative of Christ.

Referring to Nuns you are talking about something completely different.

In addition you speak of Judaism? Every denomination of Judaism ordains women as Rabbis and cantors, except the Orthodox. That is the majority. In addition it is only in Orthodox synagogues that the genders are separated.

As for churches, men and women do sit together. In nearly all denominations.

So, aside from one denomination of Judaism, a tiny minority of Christian denominations, and Islam, everyone else always women to be clergy and are not distracted by their female preachers.

 

[ATR]

What is a Muslim woman's duty as 'clergy' in your opinion?

The right to give Friday sermons, to everyone. The right to be leaders in the Mosque and make decisions. The right to study theology, interpret and make laws. Basically the equivalent of the Priests and Bishops in Christianity. The right to be equal in the running of the faith as men.

 

[جوري]

You can be a female and a scholar in Islam, you can teach and preach, half the ahadith were narrated by Aisha (RA) and she taught grown men.. that equates to rabbi if you wish to make that comparison ..
but at least Muslim men, unlike their Jewish counterparts, don't end up thanking God that they are not women!

 

['Abd-al Latif]

No it is not. Far from it. You talk only of Nuns. Firstly not all Nuns cover their heads. Secondly Catholics do not allow women clergy not for the reasons Islam gives but because Jesus was male! No Christian denomination, not a single one, does not allow women to preach because it will "distract" men. In fact most Christian denominations allow female clergy. And the arguments, as I have said numerous times, have nothing to do with distract. Primarily they deal with Jesus being male and the priest being a representative of Christ.

Referring to Nuns you are talking about something completely different.

In addition you speak of Judaism? Every denomination of Judaism ordains women as Rabbis and cantors, except the Orthodox. That is the majority. In addition it is only in Orthodox synagogues that the genders are separated.

As for churches, men and women do sit together. In nearly all denominations.

So, aside from one denomination of Judaism, a tiny minority of Christian denominations, and Islam, everyone else always women to be clergy and are not distracted by their female preachers.

Just a quick question out of curiosity. Are you basing this with what you have seen in the bible/torah or from what you have seen from the actions/statements of these individuals?

 

[جوري]

The right to give Friday sermons, to everyone. The right to be leaders in the Mosque and make decisions. The right to study theology, interpret and make laws. Basically the equivalent of the Priests and Bishops in Christianity. The right to be equal in the running of the faith as men.

what are the decisions that you want them to make? that seems vague to me.. also who said you can't study and teach theology and be a scholar?..
who said you can't head women in prayers?

Have you ran a survey asking Muslim women, whether or not they desire to stand before a large congregation, bending kneeling in prayer while behind her are rows of men? also what do you propose when she is menstruating or just not in the mood? or prego? that prayer and sermons be put on hold?

 

[doorster]

Same ole stuff rehashed over and over

 

[جوري]

This is not a power that has been restricted to scholars of the religion. For example, Umar sought to lower the dowry paid by husbands to their wives because excessive demands were limiting the number of men who could be married. A woman stepped forward and objected stating Umar could not remove a right that was granted by the traditions of Muhammad. Umar, realizing his transgression, rescinded.[110]

Consultation is a highly regarded principle in Islam.


http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/courses/seminar/asaf-farooqi-final-Seminar Paper.htm

I think it is rather rudimentary to even the most uneducated of Muslims to know a little something about Islam.. what do others on board think? we are being led by the nose by another evangelist... not smooth.. I tell you do some research first before singing the praise of idolatry.. that way you'd be inherenly more convincing ..

all the best

 

[ATR]

Just a quick question out of curiosity. Are you basing this with what you have seen in the bible/torah or from what you have seen from the actions/statements of these individuals?

From what I know of modern Judaism and Christianity. Look it up. All of these faiths have allowed women to become leaders in their religious organizations.

However, if you want the Bible. In Paul's letter to the Romans he praises women deacons and priests. Women, it is known, held leadership roles in the church until men took over. In the first century. There is one case in the Pastoral Epistles that does not allow women clergy, however, most theologians believe this letter to not have been written by Paul, the language is clearly not his writing style.

The early Church especially allowed for leadership roles for women and many churches were going back to that tradition. In fact Jesus had a rather revolutionary position on women. They traveled with them, he sat and preached to them alone

 

[جوري]

amazing

here is what we remember reading the bible..
on women

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


and, my personal favorite wish Anne coutler would conform to that given how she likes to be a bible thumper-much like you!

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

 

['Abd-al Latif]

From what I know of modern Judaism and Christianity. Look it up. All of these faiths have allowed women to become leaders in their religious organizations.

However, if you want the Bible. In Paul's letter to the Romans he praises women deacons and priests. Women, it is known, held leadership roles in the church until men took over. In the first century. There is one case in the Pastoral Epistles that does not allow women clergy, however, most theologians believe this letter to not have been written by Paul, the language is clearly not his writing style.

The early Church especially allowed for leadership roles for women and many churches were going back to that tradition. In fact Jesus had a rather revolutionary position on women. They traveled with them, he sat and preached to them alone

Is your reason for choosing a religion, then, one which gives you the same rights as men and to do everything they do?

 

[ATR]

This is not a power that has been restricted to scholars of the religion. For example, Umar sought to lower the dowry paid by husbands to their wives because excessive demands were limiting the number of men who could be married. A woman stepped forward and objected stating Umar could not remove a right that was granted by the traditions of Muhammad. Umar, realizing his transgression, rescinded.[110]

Consultation is a highly regarded principle in Islam.


http://www.kentlaw.edu/perritt/courses/seminar/asaf-farooqi-final-Seminar Paper.htm

I think it is rather rudimentary to even the most uneducated of Muslims to know a little something about Islam.. what do others on board think? we are being led by the nose by another evangelist... not smooth.. I tell you do some research first before singing the praise of idolatry.. that way you'd be inherenly more convincing ..

all the best

If one more person accuses me of being a Christian, or an Evangelist! I am not Christian! How many times do I have to say this! I AM NOT CHRISTIAN!!!! I was born and raised a Muslim! I consider myself an agnostic and am considering converting to the Episcopal church. Before I do something drastic I want to make sure I am not switching out of Islam based on false information and beliefs!

 

[جوري]

you were born and raised full of crap.. see I can say this with conviction because I have no such restriction in the Quran as--1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ...


you should go become a full fledged crapper or whatever it is you desire to be and stop bugging everyone about it!

cheerio

 

[ATR]

amazing

here is what we remember reading the bible..
on women

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."


and, my personal favorite wish Anne coutler would conform to that given how she likes to be a bible thumper-much like you!

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

I am impressed. Okay as I mentioned the Pastoral Epistles are not considered to be actually written by Paul. So scratch out Timothy from your list.

And even with all that, yes it leaves other verses left over but that does not change the fact that nearly every church lets women preach. They take those versus in the context they were written in. In addition there is, as I mentioned Romans, in which Paul talks of women priests and deacons and we know for a fact women initially historically did preach.

But that still does not change the fact women in Christianity preach. They are leaders of the church. Christians have taken those versus and realized the context they are in is no longer valid. Surely Islam can do the same? Women are not in the same position they were once in.

 

[جوري]

the fickle(ness) of christianity is no concern of Islam which parts you want to burn and which you want to keep as hilarious as it is in a creed is also no cocnern of Islam.. you can apparently work at 'hoot' --ers' bang your way through life and be accepted into heaven because 'Jesus/God' is so allowing and forgiving to people of ill repute so long as they accept he left the universe behind to show up in Nazerth to foresake himself and break a few of his own commandements--in lieu of proper prayer and proper chastitiy and proper charity, but I do digress...you haven't answered my previous questions

what are the decisions that you want them to make? that seems vague to me.. also who said you can't study and teach theology and be a scholar?..
who said you can't head women in prayers?

Have you ran a survey asking Muslim women, whether or not they desire to stand before a large congregation, bending kneeling in prayer while behind her are rows of men? also what do you propose when she is menstruating or just not in the mood? or prego? that prayer and sermons be put on hold?

listen pal. I am pressed for time, so instead of beating around the bush go be an evangelist, and preach on jihad/sina/pipes/dawkin sites but take a hike from this forum!

cheerio

 

[ATR]

the fickle(ness) of christianity is no concern of Islam which parts you want to burn and which you want to keep as hilarious as it is in a creed is also no cocnern of Islam.. you can apparently work at 'hoot' --ers' bang your way through life and be accepted into heaven because 'Jesus/God' is so allowing and forgiving to people of ill repute so long as they accept he left the universe behind to show up in Nazerth to foresake himself and break a few of his own commandements--in lieu of proper prayer and proper chastitiy and proper charity, but I do digress...you haven't answered my previous questions



listen pal. I am pressed for time, so instead of beating around the bush go be an evangelist, and preach on jihad/sina/pipes/dawkin sites but take a hike from this forum!

cheerio

Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching? Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

Answer this question:

What are the basic tenants of Islam?

 

[جوري]

Do the other faiths have a problem with that? Pregnant and menstruating women preaching?

I have already established that women in Islam can preach, can be scholars! I so hate repeating myself! Is that you are unwilling or unable to read?

Have you asked them? And even if a specific person does not want to be clergy in Islam just the idea females can't. It is belittling. It puts one down. Even if not considering a career as an Episcopal priest the idea that women can be clergy, that there are women bishops, means a lot to women.

What is belittling, I really don't understand? I think being asked to be in full subjugation to a man as per bible is belittling and shutting up in church is belittling -- again I have fully demonstrated how a woman told Omar ibn ilkhtab off in a Mosque!

further Muslim prayer differs greatly than christian prayer.. they sing and dance and 'praise the lawd', we kneel, and recite Quran.. I am still not certain where you draw the assimilations?

I find it funny I come here because I am on the verge of considering converting out of Islam and you aren't the only person to treat me thus. I come here with my doubts, hoping for clarification and am accused of being a Christian and an evangelist, whereas when I go into a church, with obviously no intention of converting, with no benefit to them there, obviously Muslim, I get all of my questions answer.

your choice seems clear to me, I really have no idea why you are wasting your time and everyone else's here? you don't seem at all interested in the replies given you

I was taught Islam encourages people to ask questions. That many Christians who convert to Islam do so because they were not allowed to ask questions. That we should seek knowledge.

You haven't demonstrated a keen ability to understand or to profit from experience of others, so it is frankly a waste, not to mention, you are evasive, and don't seem to read the replies given you.. can you give me one good reason folks ought to go on humoring you?

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

lol.. that is hilarious and very mature.. yes pls take that to your grave--


all the best

 

[جوري]

Answer this question: http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/134272994-why-how-learn-arabic-spoken-quran.html#post1038403

he is off to google them...

 

[doorster]

If I shall continue to receive this kind of hostility then I do not want to post here and it is on you if I decide to convert to Christianity.

(if you ever were a Muslim, which I do not believe)I am more than willing to take the credit if you leave, for I will plead with Allah that I was just shedding dead weight and millstone from around our collective neck!

 

[Woodrow]

One thing that greatly troubles me about Islam is the lack of female clergy.

I believe very strongly in women clergy. It is more than simply women's rights. I believe in a religion women must hold equal position in clerical positions as men. This is because women interpret things differently than men. An entire faith can be effected by whether or not women can be clergy. A woman will see things in scripture and other things, in different ways than a man and vice versa. Catholicism, for example, is very male dominant because women are not allowed to be priests.

I think it also very disheartening and almost putting down to girls growing up. Yes, Allah sees you as equal to men, no sorry you cannot give the sermons in the mosque. I know it was for me.

I was told by my mother that women are not allowed to be clergy because it is inconvenient. That having a family, raising kids, then going to the mosque to preach is difficult. What if you aren't married? What if you are willing and want to do it anyway? And what kind of excuse is that? It's inconvenient?

Why cannot women be clergy in Islam?imsad

One reason is because we have no ordained clergy. Male or female.


The Imam is simply the person who leads us in prayer. It would be an insult to a woman to have her bow in prostration in front of a man. So women do not lead men in prayer, but there are Mosques that are all female, and women do often lead the prayers in front of other women.

As far as giving sermons. women often are the instructors at a mosque.