Women intellectually deficient?

[Silver]

McGill University have documented a significant decrease in working memory among women whose estrogen levels were suppressed by chemicals

Estrogen levels were SUPPRESSED here and during the menstrual cycle, estrogen levels do drop but they are not suppressed so the drop of estrogen is not enough to cause memory problems.

If there is a link between estrogen and memory then men must also have memory problems, since men have lower estrogen levels than women. Besides this is only a research and they have to give evidence which they have not provided yet...

I do not believe that men have better memories than women do. In my med school, there isn't any difference in academic performance between males and females...there would be a difference if men had better memories since in med school almost everything is based on memorization...

 

[Silver]

McGill University have documented a significant decrease in working memory among women whose estrogen levels were suppressed by chemicals

Estrogen levels were SUPPRESSED here and during the menstrual cycle, estrogen levels do drop but they are not suppressed so the drop of estrogen is not enough to cause memory problems.

If there is a link between estrogen and memory then men must also have memory problems, since men have lower estrogen levels than women. Besides this is only a research and they have to give evidence which they have not provided yet...

I do not believe that men have better memories than women do. In my med school, there isn't any difference in academic performance between males and females...there would be a difference if men had better memories since in med school almost everything is based on memorization...

 

[Zamtsa]

The Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) said: "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said: "Yes." He said: "This is because of the deficiency of her mind."

This Hadits is Shahih.

The Hadits about Heaven under the shade of sword. this means that Jihad Fi Sabilillah will always happen until Al Qiyamah, and when a Khalifah is being Bai'at by Muslimin, and he declare Jihad Fi Sabilillah, then if we disobey that, we will enter Naar first, before going to Heaven.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

 

[sur]

First of all, i am NOT trying to offend women, I am just trying to explain Prophet's saying in light of science.

Estrogen levels were SUPPRESSED here and during the menstrual cycle, estrogen levels do drop but they are not suppressed so the drop of estrogen is not enough to cause memory problems.

Changes occur during menstrual cycle in area of brain that is involved in memory storage that account for cognitive changes during cycle.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121393888/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

http://www.physorg.com/news8169.html

If there is a link between estrogen and memory then men must also have memory problems, since men have lower estrogen levels than women.

I can't believe, being a doctor u are saying this that's another proof why women's cognition can be "defective" more frequently than men, as prophet said. There was a sister who was also a doctor on this forum who argued with me saying that anabolic steroids that bodybuilders use, cause muscle breakdown..... I told her she was confusing glucocorticoids with anabolic steroids & instead of admitting her mistake she kept on & on with her theory....... Another proof that females can get things wrong especially during some phases of their cycles.


Yes there's a link b/w estrogen & memory, BUT only in females. In males it's testosterone not estrogen that plays same role.

e.g., Men with prostate cancer treated with testosterone suppression therapy suffer memory loss....

Besides this is only a research and they have to give evidence which they have not provided yet...

Research is the proof....!!! what else evidence u r expecting.

Medicine is based on research. Research has proved it..... Prophet had said it.....

I do not believe that men have better memories than women do. In my med school, there isn't any difference in academic performance between males and females...there would be a difference if men had better memories since in med school almost everything is based on memorization...

Hadees doesn't say defficiency in women is of "MEMORY".
It just points out some deficiency that can affect women's cognitive performance in a way that it became necessary to get testimony of 2 women in place of one man as a precaution because chances of woman getting memory loss during premenstrual syndrome*** are high & more frequent than man losing memory........... Cognition includes memory & also ability to perform mental tasks. Above mentioned researches prove that there IS indeed fluctuations in female cognition (including memory)



***

http://www.womenshealth.gov/faq/premenstrual-syndrome.cfm
...PMS symptoms occur in the week or two weeks before your period ...
Symptome......trouble concentrating or remembering ..........tension, irritability, mood swings, or crying spells, anxiety or depression

So with female witness there's a possibility, every month, of losing memory & concentration.... &..... mood swings.... all these things can affect her testifying ability that's why as precaution Prophet declared to have 2 women witnesses.........

 

[index123]

This is definitely not the case, in the quran it clearly says: from (Qur'an 3:36).. " and God knew best what she brought forth — 'And no wise is the male like the female". bingo this person needs to brush up on his quran.

 

[index123]

sorry nevermind it seems I misunderstood that, sorry someone delete my post and the one above me. I was thinking about the literally meaning of 'wise"

 

[akulion]

well anyone bother reading my post lol

 

[aamirsaab]

....what are we arguing about?

 

[Ar-RaYYan]

....what are we arguing about?

whether women have a weaker memory than men :blind:

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Salam..
In Behishti Zewar, or Heavenly Ornaments in English, the author says that if a girl is shameless, she shouldn't be taught to write because she might write things to men.. He also says that women are intellectually deficient when compared to men.. How is this proven? Shouldn't all people be given an education regardless of sex since islam is about equality? It is up to the person whether he/she wants to use it positively or negatively and they will deal with Allah s.w.t. in the afterlife. Additionally, he said that women should be allowed to acquire islamic knowledge and basic things but not other subjects because if those subjects are required so that a woman can become employed and work, it is "fruitless" and against shariah because women aren't allowed to work with men and her husband should provide for her.. This is not the case all the time. What if her husband taunts her when providing food for her or she doesn't even have a husband? Are women not supposed to work because of non mahram men? Men work with na mahram women in offices and so forth, shouldn't women be able to do the same. Allah s.w.t. sees and knows if a woman is merely trying to earn a living or if she has bad intentions in her heart. Somebody please clarify!

I haven't heard or read (if it's a book) of the Heavenly Ornaments but I wanted to comment on the part that i've highted in bold in the quote above. Islam is not about equility it's about justice. A man can do somethings that a woman cannot do and vice versa, so Islam doesn't give men and woman equal rights it gives them even rights.

I don't agree with what 'Heavenly Ornaments' have said for the reasons that I personally haven't come across any such thing in the Islamic prespective, rather there are certain times that a woman may need to work out of necessity and even then the scholars have given rulings and conditions which must be carried out.

What I do agree with though is the fact that woman have been created different to men and the female's intellect and memory is lesser then that of a male. There are hadith which state this, but this doesn't mean that a woman is lesser then a man, rather there is a wisdom behind it.

Why are there more women in hell than men?

It was narrated from the Prophet (saaws) that women will form the majority of the people of Hell. It was narrated from ‘Imraan ibn Husayn that the Prophet (saaws) said: "I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women." (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3241; Muslim, 2737)

With regard to the reason for that, the Prophet (saaws) was asked about it and he explained the reason.

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Abbas (r) said: The Messenger of Allaah (saaws) said: “I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.” They said, “Why, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Because of their ingratitude (kufr).” It was said, “Are they ungrateful to Allah?” He said, “They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhari, 1052)

It was narrated that Abu Sa’eed al-Khudri said: "The Messenger of Allah (saaws) went out to the Musalla on the day of Eid al-Adha or Eid al-Fitr. He passed by the women and said, ‘O women! Give charity, for I have seen that you form the majority of the people of Hell.’ They asked, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allah?’ He replied, ‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.’ The women asked, ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is deficient in our intelligence and religious commitment?’ He said, ‘Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 304)

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allah said: "I attended Eid prayers with the Messenger of Allah (saaws). He started with the prayer before the khutbah, with no adhaan (call to prayer) or iqaamah (immediate call to prayer). Then he stood up, leaning on Bilaal, speaking of fear of Allah (taqwa) and urging us to obey Him. He preached to the people and reminded them. Then he went over to the women and preached to them and reminded them. Then he said, ‘Give in charity, for you are the majority of the fuel of Hell. A woman with dark cheeks stood up in the midst of the women and said, ‘Why is that, O Messenger of Allah?’ He said, ‘Because you complain too much and are ungrateful to your husbands.’ Then they started to give their jewellery in charity, throwing their earrings and rings into Bilal’s cloak.” (Narrated by Muslim, 885)

Our believing sisters who learn of this hadeeth should behave like those Sahaabiyaat (female companions) who, when they learned of this, did good deeds which would be the means, by Allah’s leave, of keeping them far away from being included in that majority of the inhabitants of Hell.

So our advice to the sisters is to strive to adhere to the rituals and obligatory duties of Islam, especially prayer, and to keep away from that which Allaah has forbidden, especially shirk in its many forms which are widespread among women, such as seeking one's needs from someone other than Allaah, going to practitioners of witchcraft and fortune-tellers, etc.

We ask Allaah to keep us and all our brothers and sisters far away from the Fire and the words and deeds that bring one close to it.

IslamQA.com

If you feel disheartened by this, don't. Read this quote:

Belittling Women with the Hadeeth: “Women are Deficient in Intellect and Deen.”

Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz

We often hear the noble Hadeeth "Women are deficient in their intelligence and in their Deen” and some men use this Hadeeth as a form of belittlement towards the women. We desire from you O noble shaykh, clarification of the meaning of this Hadeeth?

The meaning of the Hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam):

“I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘Aql (intellect) and Deen (religion) who are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”

So it was said:

“O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said:

“Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

So it was said:

“What is the deficiency in her Deen?”

So he said:

“Isn’t it the case that if she is menstruating she doesn’t pray or fast?”

So the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified that the deficiency of her intellect was from the angle of her weak memory and that her testimony is strengthened with the testimony of another woman. This is because of the preciseness of the witness (in Islaam) and because she could forget and make an addition or deletion to the testimony. Just as Allaah says:

{And bring forth two witnesses from your own men. If there are not two men (available) then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs then the other can remind her…} [2282]

As for deficiency in her Deen, then it is because during her state of menstruation and post-partum bleeding, she abandons the Salaat (prayer) and fasting, and she doesn’t make up the salaat. This is from the deficiency in her Deen. But this deficiency is not blameworthy upon her. Rather it is a deficiency, which happens as a result of that which Allaah had decreed for her and this was done in a manner of leniency and easiness towards her. For if she were to fast in a state of menstruation or in a state of postpartum bleeding it would harm her. So from the Mercy of Allaah (towards women) He has legislated for her to abandon the fast at the time when she is menstruating or in a state of Nifaas, and to make up the fast afterwards. As for the salaat, then without a doubt, the state of menstruation prevents her from purification. So from the mercy of Allaah, He legislated for her to abandon her prayer and likewise in the state of Nifaas.

He also legislated for her not to make it up, because in making up the (Salaat (prayer)) is difficulty, because the Salaat is tremendous, and repetitious, five times throughout the night and day, and the days of menstruation can be plentiful, sometimes seven or eight days or more than that. And the Nifaas could reach 40 days. So from the mercy of Allaah upon her and from His Ihsaan (doing good) towards her is that He removed the Salaat from her whether it be the initial Salaat or the make-up. And this does not necessitate that her intelligence is deficient in everything! Nor that her Deen is deficient in everything! But indeed the Messenger (saw) clarified that the deficiency in her intelligence is from that which happens to her from the lack of precision in her memory and testimony, and that the deficiency in her Deen is from the fact that she leaves off the prayer and fasting at the time of her menses or in the state of Nifaas. Also this doesn’t necessitate that she is less than a man in everything! or the fact that the man is better in everything! Yes, generally the male gender is better than the gender of the females generally for many reasons. Just as Allaah the High and Sublime says:

{Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend their wealth (to support them)…} [434]

But she can surpass him, sometimes, in many things. And by Allaah how many women surpass many men in their intelligence, Deen and precision! But verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence and in the religion only. There can proceed from her many righteous actions, in which, she can surpass the men and in her Taqwah of Allaah, Azza Wa Jall, and in her station in the hereafter. There could be some affairs that she places great importance on and is precise in them more so than the precision of a man. There are many issues, which she carefully considers, and is diligent in memorizing and precise in. She would become the foundation in Islaamic history and point of reference in many affairs and this is clear to those who ponder and reflect on the state of the women during the time of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and after that. With this it should be understood that this deficiency should not prevent her from being treated equally in her narrations and in her testimony, if it is strengthened with the testimony of another woman.

And it doesn’t necessarily mean that it (this deficiency) should prevent her from having Taqwah (righteousness and piety/fear and hope etc) of Allaah and the fact that she could be from the most virtuous slaves of Allaah if she is upright in her Deen, even if the fasting and Salaat is not obligatory upon her at the time of menstruation and Nifaas rather this is a deficiency which is specific to the intellect and Deen just as the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) clarified. It is not appropriate that a believer should accuse her of being deficient in everything and weak in every area of her Deen, and its clarification is pertinent and important so that the speech of the Messenger is understood in it’s proper context and in the best possible manner.



And Allaah knows best.

 

[aamirsaab]

whether women have a weaker memory than men :blind:

Have you all read mine and akulion's post in the first page?
If so, then there is no need for this thread to be opened; the two of us ended this topic (and all related to it) in those posts. I don't understand why we need to still be discussing this issue, pulling out more studies. Akulion's post was sufficient enough to give scientific backing to the Quranic ayat I gave.

 

[Silver]

I can't believe, being a doctor u are saying this that's another proof why women's cognition can be "defective" more frequently than men, as prophet said. There was a sister who was also a doctor on this forum who argued with me saying that anabolic steroids that bodybuilders use, cause muscle breakdown..... I told her she was confusing glucocorticoids with anabolic steroids & instead of admitting her mistake she kept on & on with her theory....... Another proof that females can get things wrong especially during some phases of their cycles.


Yes there's a link b/w estrogen & memory, BUT only in females. In males it's testosterone not estrogen that plays same role.

In the brain, testosterone becomes active by aromatization to estradiol so if lack of estardiol can lead to memory deficiency then lack of testosterone also leads to memory deficiency.
Testosterone has circadic and cyclic cycles so testosterone levels are not stable, testosterone levels can drop during the day so that can lead to memory problems in men also.
It is not linked to genders!!!

 

[sur]

In the brain, testosterone becomes active by aromatization to estradiol so if lack of estardiol can lead to memory deficiency

Again u r proving my point right, for similar reasoning women can mess up as witness, as u r messing up medical facts.


So if testosterone converts to estradiol "in brain", so what...!!! that's at cellular level & male memory is not affected by blood levels of estrogen, blood levels of testerone dictates brain production of estradiol, so driving force is testosterone. In females blood levels of estrogen affect it.


& as another poster posted that memory is not the only factor that can affect ability to be a witness, it's emotional aspect as well as interpreting the incidence.

then lack of testosterone also leads to memory deficiency.
Testosterone has circadic and cyclic cycles so testosterone levels are not stable, testosterone levels can drop during the day so that can lead to memory problems in men also.
It is not linked to genders!!!

this is ur hypothesis. Facts proven by research i gave above.
men don't have such a fall in testosterone to significanty affect cognition, as some women can have every month in form of PMS & as many as 85% of women can experience PMS, that's huge percentage. 30-40% have it to severe degree.


As i said before both men & women might have cognition problems, but female have significantly greater chances so Prophet asked to have double the number in case of female witnesses...........


why don't u understand it's "relative",,, not "absolute". "Absolutely" speaking both men/women can get memory/cognition/emotional problems, but women have "relatively" more chances. So we have been ordered to have "relatively" more female witnesses than males.


=============================================
Again it's not fight b/w men & women, it's human biology created by ALLAH, & Prophet gave us ruling accordingly. I am just trying to explain Hadees given earlier, & NOT trying to have men-vs-women debate.

 

[Silver]

Originally Posted by Lara View Post
In the brain, testosterone becomes active by aromatization to estradiol so if lack of estradiol can lead to memory deficiency
Again u r proving my point right, for similar reasoning women can mess up as witness, as u r messing up medical facts.

I did not say that it's blood levels of estrogen in men that affect memory, I said that since testosterone is aromatized to estradiol the low levels of testosterone also affect the memory because it means that less estradiol can act on the brain. I know that the driving force is testosterone.

his is ur hypothesis. Facts proven by research i gave above.
men don't have such a fall in testosterone to significanty affect cognition, as some women can have every month in form of PMS & as many as 85% of women can experience PMS, that's huge percentage. 30-40% have it to severe degree.

It is not my hypothesis, low levels of testosterone slow down the memory.
Testosterone in men fluctuates in a circadian rhythm: highest in the morning, lowest at bedtime.
And men do experience a monthly cycle but it hasn'ty been studied as profoundly as women's monthly cycle.

Facts proven by research i gave above.

The research provides possible links between estrogen and memory but not facts!! There are also links between testosterone and memory but nothing has been proven yet.

As i said before both men & women might have cognition problems, but female have significantly greater chances so Prophet asked to have double the number in case of female witnesses...........

I think it has to do more with emotional characteristics of the 2 genders. For example, a female witness might not tell the complete truth if she is under pressure. She might also think that the criminal has a family and they might kill him and his family will lose him...a man won't really think about all that stuff.

 

[The Palestinian]

Salam..
In Behishti Zewar, or Heavenly Ornaments in English, the author says that if a girl is shameless, she shouldn't be taught to write because she might write things to men.. He also says that women are intellectually deficient when compared to men.. How is this proven? Shouldn't all people be given an education regardless of sex since islam is about equality? It is up to the person whether he/she wants to use it positively or negatively and they will deal with Allah s.w.t. in the afterlife. Additionally, he said that women should be allowed to acquire islamic knowledge and basic things but not other subjects because if those subjects are required so that a woman can become employed and work, it is "fruitless" and against shariah because women aren't allowed to work with men and her husband should provide for her.. This is not the case all the time. What if her husband taunts her when providing food for her or she doesn't even have a husband? Are women not supposed to work because of non mahram men? Men work with na mahram women in offices and so forth, shouldn't women be able to do the same. Allah s.w.t. sees and knows if a woman is merely trying to earn a living or if she has bad intentions in her heart. Somebody please clarify!

Sister, let me clearify some points.
There is many "Shekhs" who are making religion very strict and making people's life more difficult. The prophet said:" yasero wala tasero" means (make life and religion easier not harder).
About education for females, it's obligatory for both male and female to learn and who wouldn't say this, they're against what the prophet said: "seeking education is obligatory for every muslim and muslimah".
About women to work. If he husband works and they don't need to work it's ok if she didn't work, but it's not haram to work. Women were nurses during the prophet's battles, they were coming to him to learn and listen to him.
Now, the people who is calling for minimizing the role of women in life are blind actually, we all see many women are very talent and invented such useful things for humanity, canceling this part of community is not allowed.
Sister, islam is a religion to life, not to avoiding women.