Won't you participate in my experiment please?

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Would you choose to live forever?


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ghiberti has attempted the 'gates of heaven' on san giovanni how do you feel about those? there was just an exhibit about it at the met, of course they didn't dismantle the actual thing but it was interesting.

in ghiberti' there were 10 in Islam there are many, one for instance is called 'Ar rayan'

"There is in Paradise a gate that is called ar-Rayyan, those who fasted will be summoned to it and whoever fasted will enter through it, and whoever enters it will never again experience thirst." [at-Tirmidhi and an-Nasa'i]

peace!
 
:sl:

Just a question... Would this 'Immortality' thing include a guarantee that no matter how many bullets you have in you [sort of like the guy in terminator], no matter how many times you're stabbed, you'll live?

If so, yah. I'd love to die yet again and again whilst striving in the path of Allah (swt).

Besides, there's always the curious thing of how far technology can go.

:w:
 
It was all a hypothetical, but sure why not throw in sponatnous tissue regeneration lol..

:w:
 
Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Do you have a reference from the Qu’ran about Eden not being on Earth. 2:36, 7:24, and 20:123 do not explicitly indicate that the Garden was not on Earth. However, it does indicate that it was elevated, like on a plateau or ridge.

Regarding our eternal abode, I do not think that the Qu’ran teaches that believers will go to heaven, but rather, like the Bible teaches, they will be with God. 98 is instructive in this respect, short, and reproduced below for convenience.

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,- An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy: Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.

Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence. And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures. Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

Gardens, rivers, and dwelling with God - this is strikingly similar to the Biblical “New earth” concept where God will dwell with men.

Regards,
Grenville
 
There isn't one specific verse I can give you, you have to read the Quran as a whole and try to decode some of it, let me for instance share some verses, even though you'll forgive me, it is not my greatest effort, perhaps a Muslim brother or sister can bring you more references etc..
in the following sura you can see that God asks Adam and his wife to descend from heaven to earth in the portion highlighted in red!


[Pickthal 7:19] And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.

فَوَسْوَسَ لَهُمَا الشَّيْطَانُ لِيُبْدِيَ لَهُمَا مَا وُورِيَ عَنْهُمَا مِن سَوْءَاتِهِمَا وَقَالَ مَا نَهَاكُمَا رَبُّكُمَا عَنْ هَـذِهِ الشَّجَرَةِ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَا مَلَكَيْنِ أَوْ تَكُونَا مِنَ الْخَالِدِينَ {20}
[Pickthal 7:20] Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals.

وَقَاسَمَهُمَا إِنِّي لَكُمَا لَمِنَ النَّاصِحِينَ {21}
[Pickthal 7:21] And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you.

فَدَلاَّهُمَا بِغُرُورٍ فَلَمَّا ذَاقَا الشَّجَرَةَ بَدَتْ لَهُمَا سَوْءَاتُهُمَا وَطَفِقَا يَخْصِفَانِ عَلَيْهِمَا مِن وَرَقِ الْجَنَّةِ وَنَادَاهُمَا رَبُّهُمَا أَلَمْ أَنْهَكُمَا عَن تِلْكُمَا الشَّجَرَةِ وَأَقُل لَّكُمَا إِنَّ الشَّيْطَآنَ لَكُمَا عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ {22}​
[Pickthal 7:22] Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

قَالاَ رَبَّنَا ظَلَمْنَا أَنفُسَنَا وَإِن لَّمْ تَغْفِرْ لَنَا وَتَرْحَمْنَا لَنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ {23}
[Pickthal 7:23] They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost!

قَالَ اهْبِطُواْ بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ وَلَكُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ مُسْتَقَرٌّ وَمَتَاعٌ إِلَى حِينٍ {24}​
[Pickthal 7:24] He said: Go down (from hence), one of you a foe unto the other. There will be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a while.

قَالَ فِيهَا تَحْيَوْنَ وَفِيهَا تَمُوتُونَ وَمِنْهَا تُخْرَجُونَ {25}
[Pickthal 7:25] He said: There shall ye live, and there shall ye die, and thence shall ye be brought forth.

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ قَدْ أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ لِبَاسًا يُوَارِي سَوْءَاتِكُمْ وَرِيشًا وَلِبَاسُ التَّقْوَىَ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ ذَلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللّهِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَذَّكَّرُونَ {26}
[Pickthal 7:26] O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revelations of Allah, that they may remember.

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لاَ يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُم مِّنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْءَاتِهِمَا إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ تَرَوْنَهُمْ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاء لِلَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ {27}​
[Pickthal 7:27] O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

وَإِذَا فَعَلُواْ فَاحِشَةً قَالُواْ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَا آبَاءنَا وَاللّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا قُلْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاء أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ {28}​
[Pickthal 7:28] And when they do some lewdness they say: We found our fathers doing it and Allah hath enjoined it on us. Say: Allah, verily, enjoineth not lewdness. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?
here is another verse

35. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight, of things therein wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimin (wrongdoers). '') (36. Then the Shaytan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.'')

heaven also equals sky, as far as I know when you look up that is the lowest heaven, very different from paradise..

Anyhow many changes will happen toward the end, the very earth will change, heaven will change
there are many suras that describe the process, and I don't have the Quran memorized nor am I looking at a book for a compendium so I am going to just quote the suras I know that pertain quickly

[Pickthal 78:17] Lo! the Day of Decision is a fixed time,

يَوْمَ يُنفَخُ فِي الصُّورِ فَتَأْتُونَ أَفْوَاجًا {18}
[Pickthal 78:18] A day when the trumpet is blown and ye come in multitudes,

وَفُتِحَتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ أَبْوَابًا {19}
[Pickthal 78:19] And the heaven is opened and becometh as gates,

وَسُيِّرَتِ الْجِبَالُ فَكَانَتْ سَرَابًا {20}
[Pickthal 78:20] And the hills are set in motion and become as a mirage.

there is also

يَوْمَ تُبَدَّلُ الأَرْضُ غَيْرَ الأَرْضِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ وَبَرَزُواْ للّهِ الْوَاحِدِ الْقَهَّارِ {48}
[Pickthal 14:48] On the day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty,

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}
[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}
[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}
[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}
[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}
[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}
[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


and
بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا السَّمَاء انشَقَّتْ {1}
[Pickthal 84:1] When the heaven is split asunder

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {2}
[Pickthal 84:2] And attentive to her Lord in fear,

وَإِذَا الْأَرْضُ مُدَّتْ {3}
[Pickthal 84:3] And when the earth is spread out

وَأَلْقَتْ مَا فِيهَا وَتَخَلَّتْ {4}
[Pickthal 84:4] And hath cast out all that was in her, and is empty

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {5}
[Pickthal 84:5] And attentive to her Lord in fear!

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ {6}
[Pickthal 84:6] Thou, verily, O man, art working toward thy Lord a work which thou wilt meet (in His presence).

فَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ {7}
[Pickthal 84:7] Then whoso is given his account in his right hand

فَسَوْفَ يُحَاسَبُ حِسَابًا يَسِيرًا {8}
[Pickthal 84:8] He truly will receive an easy reckoning

وَيَنقَلِبُ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {9}
[Pickthal 84:9] And will return unto his folk in joy.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ وَرَاء ظَهْرِهِ {10}
[Pickthal 84:10] But whoso is given his account behind his back,

فَسَوْفَ يَدْعُو ثُبُورًا {11}
[Pickthal 84:11] He surely will invoke destruction

وَيَصْلَى سَعِيرًا {12}
[Pickthal 84:12] And be thrown to scorching fire.

إِنَّهُ كَانَ فِي أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {13}
[Pickthal 84:13] He verily lived joyous with his folk,

إِنَّهُ ظَنَّ أَن لَّن يَحُورَ {14}
[Pickthal 84:14] He verily deemed that he would never return (unto Allah).

بَلَى إِنَّ رَبَّهُ كَانَ بِهِ بَصِيرًا {15}
[Pickthal 84:15] Nay, but lo! his Lord is ever looking on him!

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ {16}
[Pickthal 84:16] Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,

وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ {17}
[Pickthal 84:17] And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,

وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ {18}
[Pickthal 84:18] And by the moon when she is at the full,

لَتَرْكَبُنَّ طَبَقًا عَن طَبَقٍ {19}
[Pickthal 84:19] That ye shall journey on from plane to plane.

فَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {20}
[Pickthal 84:20] What aileth them, then, that they believe not

وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ {21}
[Pickthal 84:21] And, when the Qur'an is recited unto them, worship not (Allah)?

بَلِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُكَذِّبُونَ {22}
[Pickthal 84:22] Nay, but those who disbelieve will deny;

وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُوعُونَ {23}
[Pickthal 84:23] And Allah knoweth best what they are hiding.

فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ {24}
[Pickthal 84:24] So give them tidings of a painful doom,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ {25}
[Pickthal 84:25] Save those who believe

you basically have to go through the Quran in its entirety and see a clue on how the event will happen in every sura, Now I know many scholars have dedicated books to just such a purpose and if a brother or sister has a book on the beginning and the end then please link it here.. but it is easy for me to see that in the beginning Adam and his wife were asked to descend, and in the end the earth and heaven will change and we'll be brought before God in three groups see this sura about who the three groups are

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=VlgC5CKh26U[/media]
.. the days of judgement will take a very long time..
I wonder if this was of help to you? or if you have any more specific questions?

peace
 
So, if I understand the Islamic view, as a result of one man's sin all men were cast out of paradise. Is this correct?
 
'original sin' is a christian point of view only...

لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ رَبَّنَا لاَ تُؤَاخِذْنَا إِن نَّسِينَا أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَا إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا أَنتَ مَوْلاَنَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ {286}
[Pickthal 2:286] Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give


there are other verses that speak of from no man's sin will one be punished or from his goodness will another be rewarded.. will try to find specific verse later


peace
 
I didn't ask about "original sin". I'm quite aware that Muslims don't believe in it. That's a construct of Christian theology that I am not presently interested in.

I was only asking about Adam's sin and its consequences. If I read the text correctly. Prior to Adam's sin he lived in Paradise. And because of his sin he was kicked out of Paradise. Thus all the children he had were born outside of Paradise. And apparently they were either not allowed or not able or didn't desire to move back to Paradise, even though they had not sinned, because all of us are also born outside of Paradise.

It's a simple Yes/No question: Am I reading the story correctly?
 
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I didn't ask about "original sin". I'm quite aware that Muslims don't believe in it. That's a construct of Christian theology that I am not presently interested in.

I was only asking about Adam's sin and its consequences. If I read the text correctly. Prior to Adam's sin he lived in Paradise. And because of his sin he was kicked out of Paradise. Thus all the children he had were born outside of Paradise. And apparently they were either not allowed or not able or didn't desire to move back to Paradise, even though they had not sinned, because all of us are also born outside of Paradise.

It's a simple Yes/No question: Am I reading the story correctly?

he was expelled from heaven not paradise.. and yes had he not sinned we'd have all been born in heaven, but we are not paying for his sins by being here on earth.


peace
 
he was expelled from heaven not paradise.. and yes had he not sinned we'd have all been born in heaven, but we are not paying for his sins by being here on earth.


peace


Right. Not paying for his sins. That is what I was trying to say in the thread that does ask about "original sin". But it does seem as if we are all still living with the consequences of that sin because we don't have the opportunity to be born in heaven, which, as you said, we would have been if Adam had not sinned. Would you hold that to be a true statement?
 
Right. Not paying for his sins. That is what I was trying to say in the thread that does ask about "original sin". But it does seem as if we are all still living with the consequences of that sin because we don't have the opportunity to be born in heaven, which, as you said, we would have been if Adam had not sinned. Would you hold that to be a true statement?

Yup, that is pretty accurate-- although I think the consequence is working out in our favor.. that is, should we choose the road to earn our way to a better home!

peace!
 
Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you for the information. From the evidence, it appears that the Garden can be interpreted to be on an elevated part on Earth, like a ridge or plateau. However, I do not want to negatively impact your thread with this slightly off-topic argument.

The Biblical book of Genesis teaches that before the flood, normally referred to as Noah’s flood, people lived for hundreds of years and accomplished much. If we could go from riding horses in 1900 to space travel in 1966, imagine what we could do if we could live for 1,000 years.

I must say that I am surprised by the number of poll respondents who indicated a desire not to live longer. Jesus taught that we should not squander our resources by being unproductive. We should also not squander opportunities of doing good and helping others. There are so many opportunities for behaving properly on Earth, why on Earth (pardon the pun) would anyone wish to simply die, leaving all of their responsibilities uncompleted.

I trust the applicable respondents will reconsider.

Regards,
Grenville
 
Yup, that is pretty accurate-- although I think the consequence is working out in our favor.. that is, should we choose the road to earn our way to a better home!

peace!


Sorry, to spend so much time on this aside from your thread. Are you suggesting that admission to Paradise after life on earth is to be preferred to having been born in heaven to begin with?
 
Sorry, to spend so much time on this aside from your thread. Are you suggesting that admission to Paradise after life on earth is to be preferred to having been born in heaven to begin with?

yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting..
Do you think it is better to be born rich or to have attained it through hard work and dedication?


peace!
 
Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you for the information. From the evidence, it appears that the Garden can be interpreted to be on an elevated part on Earth, like a ridge or plateau. However, I do not want to negatively impact your thread with this slightly off-topic argument.

The Biblical book of Genesis teaches that before the flood, normally referred to as Noah’s flood, people lived for hundreds of years and accomplished much. If we could go from riding horses in 1900 to space travel in 1966, imagine what we could do if we could live for 1,000 years.

I must say that I am surprised by the number of poll respondents who indicated a desire not to live longer. Jesus taught that we should not squander our resources by being unproductive. We should also not squander opportunities of doing good and helping others. There are so many opportunities for behaving properly on Earth, why on Earth (pardon the pun) would anyone wish to simply die, leaving all of their responsibilities uncompleted.

I trust the applicable respondents will reconsider.

Regards,
Grenville

I can't be certain where it was, but do know that heaven and paradise are two different things, also heaven will not have any evil in it or temptation. I can't describe paradise short of the few things we were told of it, as our mind in this physical world cannot conceive that which we can't contrast to something else.

Certainly we are told through many ahadith that, the best of us are those with long lives and accumulate good deeds, we are also asked not to wish for death.. and we are also told that all who die carry regret, if they were good and finally the truth is revealed, they wish they had tried harder to have earned even better, and those who were wicked know that it is too late and that they had chased illusions.
And I also agree that life expectancy has changed over the ages, but we must return to our lord.. this world was described by prophet Mohammed (SAW) as a tree in which the traveler sojourned and enjoyed its shade, but that unto our lord is the journeying and we must take provisions for our trip!


under any circumstance, this thread was a mere hypothetical where I have gained much insight to people's philosophies and approach to life, and wish to thank you all for time and courtesy extended


peace
 
yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting..
Do you think it is better to be born rich or to have attained it through hard work and dedication?


peace!

My own view is that those who were created to belong in heaven would have been better off to have never left heaven. My other view is that once we have lost heaven that it is not something we can reclaim as if it is something owed to us as a reward for any amount of hard work and dedication. Heaven is only obtainable as a gift. Gifts are never things that we earn, they come to us out of the largesse of another. That which we receive because we have earned it is called a wage. Wages are something that are owed to you. I don't think we can ever approach God and tell him that we've earned heaven and he owes it to us. And I don't think you are really suggesting that. So, my guess is that you may want to reconsider some of your terminology as I don't think your terminology actually fits what I understand to be your theology with regard to how one achieves heaven, which I've always understood you to say was by the grace of Allah.
 
My own view is that those who were created to belong in heaven would have been better off to have never left heaven.
& my view is if we had never left heaven, we'd never attain paradise!
My other view is that once we have lost heaven that it is not something we can reclaim as if it is something owed to us as a reward for any amount of hard work and dedication.
No heaven isn't owed us!


Heaven is only obtainable as a gift.
I disagree with that.. we have gifts here on earth countless--why should we be owed a better abode a gift as well?


Gifts are never things that we earn, they come to us out of the largesse of another.
that would be true, if I were to accept the first part of your sentence as true, it begs the question.. it is based on an a priori judgment!
That which we receive because we have earned it is called a wage. Wages are something that are owed to you.
sometimes owed to you, sometimes you get a bonus and a few perks, if your boss is kind?
I don't think we can ever approach God and tell him that we've earned heaven and he owes it to us.
No we can't


And I don't think you are really suggesting that.
I am not!

So, my guess is that you may want to reconsider some of your terminology as I don't think your terminology actually fits what I understand to be your theology with regard to how one achieves heaven, which I've always understood you to say was by the grace of Allah.
That is true, but it is true too that one can't equate one who spends his day in worship and worship takes on many different forms, even hard work can be a form of worship to equate with someone who is a polar opposite..
ultimately we all attain paradise through God's mercy, but that doesn't change the fact that there is gradation in heaven and people earn their level..
God isn't unkind to his servants, I don't believe that God belongs only to the Israelites, nor does he forgive all only through accepting the blood of his son, I believe there are good people and bad people, I believe even Muslims will go to hell to be expiated from their sins, if they were sinners and there is a place for them in hell called saqar. No one gets a carte blanche to heaven just because someone's spin on a free gift..because they were God's chosen, because they drank the blood of christ or because they were Muslim.. that is nonesense if you'll forgive my being so bold.. People get what they deserve, based on their heart, intent and what their hands have offered... I'll reference you to suret Qaf as basis to my argument here... and admittedly I am no scholar...


cheers
 
found a translated version.. it starts after Al fatiha.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd3GO6kAqxA&feature=related[/media]

peace
 
Purest, this is a good and interesting discussion, or at least so I think, yet I fear we may be risking having your thread closed for being so off topic.

But it is your thread. Shall we continue? Start a new thread? Or move to PMs?

Also, I have a question from the recitation.
31 And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous,- no more a thing distant.

32 (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you,- for every one who turned (to Allah) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

33 "Who feared (Allah) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

34 "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

35 There will be for them therein all that they wish,- and more besides in Our Presence.

So, is this Garden in heaven or paradise? Are they one and the same, or are they different places?

7:40, "Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.", leads me to think that heaven and the garden are one and the same.

But several other passages that include this line, "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods..." make me think that heaven is not something that is eternal, not something that has always been.

Perhaps the Qur'an using the term "heaven" in two different ways? In some instances it refers to the abode of God and on others it refers to the created sky above us. This would be in line with the term "earth" sometimes referring to the entire planet and sometimes to the dirt below our feet.

But I await your assistance with these interpretations.
 
Purest, this is a good and interesting discussion, or at least so I think, yet I fear we may be risking having your thread closed for being so off topic.

Your intent is good, you enjoy philosophy and theology as much as I do, and I know you not to have an ulterior motive short of theological growth so to speak, :p I see no reason the topic should be closed or moved? I find that the topics that are closed or moved or split usually do so because of one of several legitmate reasons, no point in listing them all here.

But it is your thread. Shall we continue? Start a new thread? Or move to PMs?
we continue, it is a free discussion based on a hypothetical. thus we should bare that in mind whatever route we take..

Also, I have a question from the recitation.


So, is this Garden in heaven or paradise? Are they one and the same, or are they different places?
here is the thing about translation.. just today I discovered a good source..I recommend you use this version
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200016264&sr=8-1

5 star rating based on 42 reviews-- I'll give you my opinion as a native Arabic speaker.. the word 'Janna' often used to denote paradise or garden also dervied from Jinn or jinoon, literally means (that which is hidden from sight).. no one uses that interpretation obviousely because Janna is taken to denote paradise.. thus I can't explain to you the nature of 'that which is hidden from sight' how could I?

7:40, "Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.", leads me to think that heaven and the garden are one and the same.
gardens of heaven have been described in several verses through out the Quran, I can't attempt to place them for you in a particular abode, anymore than I can tell you the location of tasneem or Al kawthar..
Again it is just a matter of whom is doing the translation, it is not nearly as bewildering as all that in original semitic tongue!

But several other passages that include this line, "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods..." make me think that heaven is not something that is eternal, not something that has always been.
Heaven here is denoted to mean sky 'samawat' means skies and we certainly concede that the sky we see above us is the lowest heaven.. actually I'd hate to send you searching in all of the Quran.. no who am I kidding I love it :coolious: but I believe suret an'najm will have your answer as to what belongs where, I might just find a translated version and stick it here as well :shade:


Perhaps the Qur'an using the term "heaven" in two different ways? In some instances it refers to the abode of God and on others it refers to the created sky above us. This would be in line with the term "earth" sometimes referring to the entire planet and sometimes to the dirt below our feet.

But I await your assistance with these interpretations.

'heavens' 'samawat' and Janna [(paradise--that which is hidden from sight)] are meant to denote different things.. now I am off to find you suret an najm!


peace
 

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