Would any theists here behave less morally if "there was no God"?

[Gubbleknucker]

2. Really? Pawns of a supernatural entity? Stop flattering yourself as if we are mindless automotons. You demonstrate that you have no grasp on religion other than what your atheist bias tells you. You choose to answer to your own desires. I choose to answer to Allah.

By the way it would help if you actually understood the words you were using.

Pawn: A person or an entity used to further the purposes of another

Last time I checked, Allah doesn't need us, we need him so your "pawn" comment is nonsense.

I apologize.

I should have used the word "puppet."

Sidenote-question-thing: Do any Muslims believe in predestination?
If Allah is omnipotent he is clearly also omniscient. This means he knows our futures.

 

[Zafran]

I apologize.

I should have used the word "puppet."

Sidenote-question-thing: Do any Muslims believe in predestination?
If Allah is omnipotent he is clearly also omniscient. This means he knows our futures.

atleast we're not slaves to our desires -. Furthermore we believe in Allah swt knows everything - including the future.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I apologize.

I should have used the word "puppet."

Sidenote-question-thing: Do any Muslims believe in predestination?
If Allah is omnipotent he is clearly also omniscient. This means he knows our futures.

Puppet: One whose behavior is determined by the will of others

Try again. There is free will in Islam and there is some predestination. Though I am no expert in this. Moreover, going along with your theoretical world view, if we were puppets, it would extend to you just as much because God doesn't lose control over you just because you don't believe. So I'd reconsider your puppet theory.

Yes He has foreknowledge.

 

[Gubbleknucker]

atleast we're not slaves to our desires

You have a desire to go to heaven, so you worship Allah.

How is that any different from the way I accomplish any of my goals?

-. Furthermore we believe in Allah swt knows everything - including the future.

So when Allah caused me to come into existence, he knew every choice I would ever make.

Why would Allah make someone who would never believe in him, and then punish him for that lack of belief?

Another aspect: Does Allah know his own future?

 

[Zafran]

You have a desire to go to heaven, so you worship Allah.

How is that any different from the way I accomplish any of my goals?


So when Allah caused me to come into existence, he knew every choice I would ever make.

Why would Allah make someone who would never believe in him, and then punish him for that lack of belief?

Another aspect: Does Allah know his own future?

1 - I pray to Allah swt because Allah swt is the only thing that is worthy of worship

2 - You choose not to believe in him - its your life - the warnings are clear - like dont go near the fire - if you dont want to listen to it - thats your problem.

3 - God is beyond time.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

You have a desire to go to heaven, so you worship Allah.

How is that any different from the way I accomplish any of my goals?


So when Allah caused me to come into existence, he knew every choice I would ever make.

Why would Allah make someone who would never believe in him, and then punish him for that lack of belief?

Another aspect: Does Allah know his own future?

Nice try at setting up a moral dilemma.

In Islam we believe that Allah doesn't burden a soul beyond what it can bear and thus gives them every fair chance to redeem themselves. So:

1. You don't know if you will become a Muslim in the future
2. If you desire to not be a Muslim and reject the chances Allah gives you (IE you're on a Muslim forum debating with Muslims who would like to see you accept Islam), you will fail
3. You chose your actions. You were given a fair chance at paradise and failed. Why should He negate your existence rather than give you the chance at paradise you deserve? Justice is justice, even when it works against you.

 

[Gubbleknucker]

But surely if He is omnipotent He already knows?

Justice is justice:
Indeed it is. The law of identity applies to everything.

But if Allah wants me to believe, He will have to actually do something to prove himself.

 

[Zafran]

But surely if He is omnipotent He already knows?

Justice is justice:
Indeed it is. The law of identity applies to everything.

But if Allah wants me to believe, He will have to actually do something to prove himself.

God has given you enough warnings and messeges and messengers - Its your own fault if you dont want to listen to them. Surely if you wanted to stay out of the fire you would believe.

 

[alcurad]

given that he is the one maintaining Our and everything else's existence, time-space is part of his creation, thus he wouldn't be 'moving within' such a construct as far as I can see.

also, future/past/present are extremely relative, actually they don't truly exist as we usually think of them-if we take modern physics seriously. see this for reference.

and Allah has already 'done' a lot of things to enable you to believe in him, rather you are stopping yourself. there is no compulsion in religion, otherwise you'd prefer to be as a rock or drop of water, with no control over yourself?

but then again, humans being part of-mindless/will-less nature, and denying the existence of anything outside of human perception underlie most atheist philosophy.
to note, it doesn't take leaps of faith to believe, rather freedom from bias.

Islam is fundamentally different form all the religions there are, in ways that make most atheist arguments seem almost comical-seeing it like Christianity in the middle ages for one- to understand this however you'll need to give much time and effort.

 

[Trumble]

Erm what is the point of this thread? This is like saying "If alcohol wasnt forbidden, would you drink it"? It s a silly question, people would drink it because it is "satisfying" and causes you to go into a stupor so you dont have to think about anything.

A great many people (with no wish to 'go into a stupor'!) who are not religious freely choose not to drink for exactly the same reason the Qur'an forbids drinking alcohol, it can be dangerous to your own health and, in excess, sometimes to other people's health.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

Typically people are "good" and "honest" with other people because they are cowards. If I am mean to you then you will be mean to me, and if I steal from you you might steal from me, or fight me, or call the cops on me. I personally don't value societal norms just for the sake of arbitrary cultural "rights" and "wrongs" drawn by who I know not. I prefer to be completely honest even at detriment to myself. for example, if I think someone is an idiot, I'd call them an idiot. Not, "Maybe you shouldn't have done that..." but, "You are a complete idiot." -Why? Because it humors me. I have nothing to be humble for, if there is no higher power. I could worship my own intellect, and if someone is smarter than me, then I will find some public way to humiliate and outsmart him... and why not? Because someone who's opinion I value less than a molehill puts a label on me? "Jerk" or "sociopath" or something worse... like I care... I would decide my own morality code and not let other people who could be dumber than me decide it for me and force it upon me... And that in and of itself seems moral to me... to be honest to my own individuality at all costs...

The above is an accurate description of my perception were I not to have embraced Islam. Yet, ironically, were everyone to embrace the above mode of thinking, rational as it may be, it would also assure destruction of the human race over time, and propel society into a complete implosion or breakdown.

Luckily Islam does inform humankind of how weak and frail it really is, and teaches us to be thankful rather than arrogant for the good things Allah [swt] has blessed us with... such as intellect and reasoning capabilities which are better served learning about our Creator, marveling at His creation, and coming up with innovative ways to help our fellow man, rather than lording what we have as though we are it's sole authors over those who aren't as fortunate in that area. -And all this not for the sake of our ego, but for the sake of our Creator, seeking only His pleasure and reward, rather than the pleasure of His creatures, who hold no harm or benefit, either in our life, or afterward.

 

[- IqRa -]

So when Allah caused me to come into existence, he knew every choice I would ever make.

Yes.

Why would Allah make someone who would never believe in him, and then punish him for that lack of belief?

No, here is where free will comes into it. It's your choice if you will believe or not, but Allah knows whether you will believe or not. Comprehende?

Another aspect: Does Allah know his own future?

Is this a trick question? <_<

 

[Gubbleknucker]

No, here is where free will comes into it. It's your choice if you will believe or not, but Allah knows whether you will believe or not. Comprehende?

So basically, Allah knew when he created me that I would not believe. He had complete foreknowledge of this and he created me the way I am anyways. He knew every conclusion I would ever reach and every choice I would ever make. He made me what I am.

This means that there can be no punishment, since my consciousness is his fault.

Do you doubt he has this power? Is the creator of the universe actually a little god?
Either he knew what I was going to be or he didn't.

How do you know that the brain does not function like a machine? That it does not give the same response to the same stimulus every time? You can't, because as soon as you did the second test the brain's base of information would have changed. It would learn from the first test and act accordingly during the second, or have different emotions at that time. It is constantly changing.

I'm sure that it is completely predictable to its mighty designer and creator.

Is this a trick question?

Yes, of course. You don't have to answer it. It is quite off-topic.
Let's just say that omnipotence is tricky at best.
___________________________________________________________________
MuslimCONVERT:

I don't know anyone that even remotely resembles what you just described.

My best atheist friend is devoting himself to saving the planet. He was recently arrested for obstructing a nuclear missile.
My other atheist friend is a harmless geek. I have never even heard him insult anybody.

And why I should I worship my own intellect? Why would anybody? I am constantly humbled by the discoveries of others that may someday enable me to discover even more, should I so choose.


Can you honestly say you would learn enough about optics out on your own, and without foreknowledge, to build a microscope, and discover that microscopic organisms cause disease?
Would you design the machines that made the industrial revolution possible? Would you then set up a functioning system of capitalism that allowed for free enterprise without exploitation (labor unions) ?

Would you successfully make steel? Perfect the crystalline structure of this steel?
Would you set up any kind of electronic communication?

NO. You would not, could not, and neither could I.

I realize, like Newton, that "If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."

Because someone who's opinion I value less than a molehill puts a label on me? "Jerk" or "sociopath" or something worse...

We all care about others. It is natural and normal. We are social animals. Society matters to us. Would you isolate yourself like that? Honestly?

The label of "sociopath" would certainly affect me if it had any base in truth. If it was not true, I would do my best to ignore it.

 

[Aurora]

I used to believe in God quite strongly. I didn't drink alcohol, didn't eat pork, gave money to charity, respected my parents, dressed conservatively, etc. I don't believe in God anymore, but none of these aspects of what I was like have changed. I'm still pretty much the same person.

 

[- Qatada -]

So basically, Allah knew when he created me that I would not believe. He had complete foreknowledge of this and he created me the way I am anyways. He knew every conclusion I would ever reach and every choice I would ever make. He made me what I am.

This means that there can be no punishment, since my consciousness is his fault.

The irony is, that science and philosopy explain this concept real well.

There is no such thing as past, present and future. They are only perceptions of the human mind who perceives the universe this way. According to physics, the past, present and future are happening simultaneously, and we only say 'now' and label it as the present, when in reality everything is out of these tenses.


So the basic idea is that you don't know your ending and God hasn't revealed the knowledge of this to you, God gives you the best guidance, and tells you to obey Him - for your own good - and if you don't - then you have been warned of its consequences.

So you can't argue that God knows all things, yet reject the belief that we also have been given the choice to do good.

He has laid down the same religion for you as He enjoined on Noah: that which We have revealed to you and which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses and Jesus: 'Establish the religion and do not make divisions in it.' What you call the associators to follow is very hard for them. God chooses for Himself whomsoever He wills and guides to Himself those who turn to Him. (Quran ash-Shura: 13)
​

Do you doubt he has this power? Is the creator of the universe actually a little god?
Either he knew what I was going to be or he didn't.

Do you know your ending? Has God told you your ending?

When you're given a test, you have to prepare for it to pass it and be rewarded. If you don't prepare for it, then you will fail and be punished. That's how it simply goes.



Your other arguments on science and sociology are neutral (don't support ur atheism).

​

 

[Gubbleknucker]

The irony is, that science and philosopy explain this concept real well.

There is no such thing as past, present and future. They are only perceptions of the human mind who perceives the universe this way.

I call bs.

You're describing a meaningless abstraction.

What theory uses this concept? Relativity? No. Quantum mechanics? No.

The laws of motion? Certainly not.
Electrophysics? No.

Please tell me. I want to know.

 

[- Qatada -]

I call bs.

You're describing a meaningless abstraction.

What theory uses this concept? Relativity? No. Quantum mechanics? No.

The laws of motion? Certainly not.
Electrophysics? No.

Please tell me. I want to know.

Tell me, are you living now in the present, or in the future?

 

[Gubbleknucker]

Tell me, are you living now in the present, or in the future?

By the time you read this, it will have been the past. The ego that wrote this sentence does not exist any more.

My thoughts are focused on the future, which is an abstraction, though it is a useful one if you want to get anything accomplished.

My physical body is in the present.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi
What brother Qatadah refered to; is fourdimensionalism, or the perdurance of matter over time. Although it is a philosophic theory, it is held by most scientists since it can be defended with arguments from both Einstein's relativity as well as the standardized theory.

Basically what Qatadah's argument comes down to, is that if God created the universe, and time is a dimension of said universe, then God created time as well. If God created time it logically follows that God is outside of time. Hence your assumption is false. You assumed that since God's knowledge on your choices precedes your choices, they are no longer free. Since according to causality, the former would affect the latter. However, from a non-linear, non-subjective point of view of time, this causality no longer holds. If God is outside of time, he would perceive past present and future simultaneous.

Another angle to refute this argument from, is simply to point out that knowledge does not necessaryly mean there is causality. In other words, you are ignoring the possibility that God knows the future because he knows what you will choose rather then despite of what you will choose. In other words, your free choice is calculated within the method of knowing the future.

P.S: First person to complete the following sentence: "big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey..." gets reps ^_^

P.P.S: You can check my website for an in depth explanation of fourdimensionalism: http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/fourdimensionalism.htm
And for an in depth refutation of the "destiny vs. free will" argument: http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/brainwashing.htm

 

[Gubbleknucker]

stuff.

Yes, I understand the concept of time as a dimension, but he was saying that time does not exist.

Also, if you look at a being existing outside of time, however incomprehensible (and you're proud of it ), then does the law of causality still apply?
You admit no.
So why is a creator required if all this is possible?