Would any theists here behave less morally if "there was no God"?

[AntiKarateKid]

Why?! The scenario is irrelevant. According to you;



"Whatever they want" has few limits; in the absence of God, according to you, where could those limits possibly come from? Your pink and fluffy scenario about stealing TVs is packed with provisos that, according you, shouldn't be there - why would it matter if someone was hurt? There are no law enforcement agencies to worry about it as, in your God-free world, there is no mechanism by which laws might come about that they could enforce (and agents would, of course, be infinitely corruptable anyway).

Let's put away the electronics and consider a relevant example. You might 'want' not TVs or Macbooks (in your world nobody is likely to be making them or generating the electricity to power them anyway), but - in the time honoured tradition of humanity - your neighbour's wife and land. The only way you can get those things is to kill your neighbour. We have established there is nothing stopping you doing that, as it is 'what you want'. Would you kill him then take his wife, unwillingly if necessary, or not? If not, and you have already suggested that you might draw the line at murder, then why not?

Listen. Let's get down to realistic scenarios, not stealing my neighbors wife (whom I dont find very attractive anyhow LOL). In my scenario above, what reason would I have not to steal? Just answer it.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm thinking of going to church at least once a week, all this constant murdering is giving me RSI.

You already admitted that you would steal in that other thread.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Tell me, what reason would a person have for not stealing a new TV from a store, if noone would know, and noone would get hurt.

Stealing by definition is taking the property of someone else. It could be that nobody gets "hurt" in the process, but it is not a victimless crime. In fact there's no such thing as a victimless crime. Somebody is always draws the shorter straw in crime. the reason that people should still do good, even if they don't believe in God is altruism. Although I think that without belief in god, people's view of right and wrong might be easier warped. I still think atheists have the capability of at least trying to be good. And isn't that what theists do to? Trying? I still have to meet the first theist who never did anything bad.

 

[Brasco]

To my mind, religion or the existing of Allah ta'ala is not there to make people well behaved. It is a way out of hell!! an escape of the eternal torment! But if we recognize, that there is a God, for sure we will live accoring the legislation He has given to mankind

 

[Uthman]

I probably would behave less morally but there is a difference between that and complete immorality. Certainly, I would pay less attention to the finer details of morality and there would probably be more times when my self interest came before those of my fellow human beings.

Islam came and it perfected morality and good manners and almost makes it an art. This becomes clear from reading such works as Imaam Al-Bukhaari's Al Adab al Mufrad.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Stealing by definition is taking the property of someone else. It could be that nobody gets "hurt" in the process, but it is not a victimless crime. In fact there's no such thing as a victimless crime. Somebody is always draws the shorter straw in crime. the reason that people should still do good, even if they don't believe in God is altruism. Although I think that without belief in god, people's view of right and wrong might be easier warped. I still think atheists have the capability of at least trying to be good. And isn't that what theists do to? Trying? I still have to meet the first theist who never did anything bad.

This is not a thread about "if atheists can be moral." It is a thread about why, if you didn't believe in a soul/judgement/God etc and all that entailed, what reasons would you have for not stealing it?

So far all I have gotten in response is "if you steal from others, what if they steal from you" which strikes me as both a superficial and selfish reason and that it is irrelevant in this context since noone will know that I did it. Or that "I wasn't raised like that" which is also a strange answer since we are not slaves to our upbringing.

Moreover this thread should not turn into a list of self assessments if you in particular would steal it, it is a thread about WHY. All

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Selam aleykum
Like I said, altruism

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Selam aleykum
Like I said, altruism

Bro, WHY should one be altruistic? Stating WHAT the act is, is not a reason to commit the act. It is equally valid for me to be stingy as it is charitable.

 

[Trumble]

Listen. Let's get down to realistic scenarios, not stealing my neighbors wife (whom I dont find very attractive anyhow LOL). In my scenario above, what reason would I have not to steal? Just answer it.

I already have answered it, or at least I have in relation to relevant scenarios that don't include unjustifiable provisos that are, in fact, contrary to your whole thesis. Assuming you haven't had another sudden revelation that that thesis is completely different to what you first said it was, that is. The reason is that such conduct is contrary to a moral code that can, and indeed did 'evolve' without the intervention of God or gods because it was, in general terms (there will always be exceptions) beneficial to most members of the human race. I have also told you where to look for more detailed explanations as to why that might happen (call it 'argument by authority' if you like, but I have no intention of producing potted versions of all of them which you can easily Google up yourself - start with Hobbes and Rousseau). Going back some, Zafran suggested an alternative that a convinced metaphysician such as yourself might find rather more attractive in Kant's catagorical imperative.. something else you can look up for yourself should you have a genuine interest in finding an answer to your question.

[Removed personal attacks]

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I already have answered it, or at least I have in relation to relevant scenarios that don't include unjustifiable provisos that are, in fact, contrary to your whole thesis. Assuming you haven't had another sudden revelation that that thesis is completely different to what you first said it was, that is. The reason is that such conduct is contrary to a moral code that can, and indeed did 'evolve' without the intervention of God or gods because it was, in general terms (there will always be exceptions) beneficial to most members of the human race. I have also told you where to look for more detailed explanations as to why that might happen (call it 'argument by authority' if you like, but I have no intention of producing potted versions of all of them which you can easily Google up yourself - start with Hobbes and Rousseau). Going back some, Zafran suggested an alternative that a convinced metaphysician such as yourself might find rather more attractive in Kant's catagorical imperative.. something else you can look up for yourself should you have a genuine interest in finding an answer to your question.

I responded to everything you posted. Moreover, to many people in the scenario I put forth to you, thinking about "the benefit to the entire race" is hardly the first thought that pops into a person's mind when deciding whether to steal something relatively trivial without negatively impacting the "entire human race". Moreover, your reasons are very superficial because every reason you give me comes back into something that may eventually benefit the person in question which is ridiculous in a scenario testing selfishness.

[Removed personal attacks]

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Bro, WHY should one be altruistic? Stating WHAT the act is, is not a reason to commit the act. It is equally valid for me to be stingy as it is charitable.

Selam aleykum
How about being altruistic for the sake of altruism. Why do you need a reason? Why can't you just accept that people choose to be altruistic because they consider it the right thing to do? I remember even back when I was an atheist that I did acts of altruism even when I thought there was absolutely no benefit in it for me. Not all people act only on egoistic motives. For some people altruism in itself can be the motive. Especially people with ASD have a high tendency towards this. And if you can't understand people acting altruistic only for the sake of of it, well no offence, but then I pity you.

On another note, I could just as well reflect the argument, why would people act selfish? Of course you can say, because it benefits them, and then I could say, well that is what selfish means, merely stating the characteristics of selfish acts doesn't explain why people do them. Catch my drift?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Me personally? Would I act differently if there was no God, or, I believed there was no God? Not in the least.

There was a period of years when I believed that there was no God.

During that time, I was still as ethical in my behaviour as I am now. And I believe that all people are born good.

I believe one's ethics should come from one's inner being, not from some promise of reward or threat of punishment.

That seems very subjective. What if one's inner being told them to be more crass and insulting? Also, it is obvious that being atheist doesn't automatically make you devolve into a barbarian. Your upbringing plays a major part. I'm not arguing that. I'm talking about taking the idea of no reward/punishment/guarantee of good beating evil/no set good and evil to their logical extremes.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

That seems very subjective. What if one's inner being told them to be more crass and insulting? Also, it is obvious that being atheist doesn't automatically make you devolve into a barbarian. Your upbringing plays a major part. I'm not arguing that. I'm talking about taking the idea of no reward/punishment/guarantee of good beating evil/no set good and evil to their logical extremes.

I can't speak in Sarada's place, but I think you missed her point. I think she didn't meant to say that we should determine good and evil based on our urges, but instead I think she meant that true good acts aren't merely because of reward, but out of ideology.
Example, two kids, one is nice to the other because he considered it a good thing to do, the other is nice only because he knows he'll get a cookie from his parents then. Which of those two would you consider the "nicest" kid?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Listen. Let's get down to realistic scenarios, not stealing my neighbors wife (whom I dont find very attractive anyhow LOL). In my scenario above, what reason would I have not to steal? Just answer it.

I think you can answer your own question. There are plenty of us out in the world that do not believe in Gods, yet do we constantly steal and rape and stuff? No. Why not? Answer your own question. It should be obvious.

And if absent God you would seriously go cheating on your spouse (or with a woman on her spouse) and steal TVs.... then I'm very glad you have religion. But... I really don't think you'd be like that. You have a moral compass absent God. You just don't see it.

 

[Pygoscelis]

On another note, I see you starting to froth at the mouth again here so I'll be blunt before you start on your traditional freakout. Either respond in a civilized, non condescending or insulting manner, or stop barking and keep your thoughts to yourself. They won't be missed. Had I been a lesser man and we had been talking over the kitchen table, you would have gotten it flipped over on you for being such a ****. Fill that in yourself and leave the thread.

This is classic. AKK starts a thread declaring that atheists must be less moral than theists, and then complains about atheists "insulting" him when they refute this. Then he goes on to bark out various personal attacks and then accuses the atheists of "frothing at the mouth and speaking in a condescending manner". I sometimes wonder if he is serious or a parody. Doesn't Islam have the golden rule, as most religions do? Do unto others as you'd have them do unto you? If AKK wants to be treated with respect perhaps he should consider showing some to others.

Actually, this display by AKK is right on topic. AKK, Isn't your whole thesis here that your God makes you more moral than us kafir? You're defeating your own claim by the manner in which you are posting.

 

[Trumble]

Moreover, to many people in the scenario I put forth to you, thinking about "the benefit to the entire race" is hardly the first thought that pops into a person's mind when deciding whether to steal something relatively trivial without negatively impacting the "entire human race".

For the benefit of other members who may have been following these posts, of course it isn't; that ridiculous strawman has nothing to do with what I said. It is because of that mutual benefit that a moral code comes into being. Once it is there people generally obey it without conciously thinking about it before every action they take, just as you don't fret about the possible consequences to your immortal soul of stealing a bag of jelly beans each time you walk into the candy store.

You will forgive me if I treat the rest of your last with the contempt it deserves.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Example, two kids, one is nice to the other because he considered it a good thing to do, the other is nice only because he knows he'll get a cookie from his parents then. Which of those two would you consider the "nicest" kid?

Good point. And if you only do good out of fear of hell and promise of heaven, are you really good?

 

[HopeFul]

Assalamoalaikum,

I think this is useless, it is stupid to say we would be nice if Allah wasn't there to punish or reward us.

Our whole idea of good and bad has stemmed from the the existance of religion right from the time of Adam.

We cannot say that atheists do not believe in a god and are still good because they have personal "moral" values. Saying that makes it sound like a good and organised world/society is possible in the absence of a God, which is not true. We can not even think what it would be if there was no religion.Where did people learn their moral values from? From religion which means taught by Allah. There has ALWAYS been a religion. The world is a good place because of everyone belonging to Allah and good people continously trying to please their Creator in their own way. Everyone has good and bad qualities and the bad ones come from actually listening to self which the quraan says is the lower self I think Nafs Al Ammara ( JazakAllah for correcting me muahaba).

It always whispers bad things, if religion wasnt there we wouldnt know we shouldnt listen to it but instead follow Allah.

As for the person who said that he would still be good because his family drummed ethics into him, I ask him on WHAT basis did his parents do that? personal doctrine? Self made morals?I doubt it. Of course they are all based on religion. If religion and presence of Allah weren't a fact, there would be nothing else either.

Relgion is TOO present in todays world, atheists although do not believe in Allah, yet they have been seeing theists since forever. If they are calm, good, morally correct, they have taken/learnt good attributes from theists. Since there has never been "no" religion one cannot claim to say they didnt learn it from religious people.

I may be a pessimistic person, but I don't think this is right to discuss... Allah is present and we are nothing without Him and we wouldnt know how to live because only a Creator can guide us...

 

[Muhaba]

It's true that most people do good /refrain from wrongdoing because of some outside force, either fear of God or fear of the law or fear of getting a bad reputation or fear of losing the job, etc. If this weren't true, then their wouldn't be so many cases of dishonesty and fraud. Just think of the enron case (and other accounting scandels). Because of fraud so many people lost their life savings. So while people might not commit crimes such as rape or murder if they don't believe in God or the Hereafter, most such people will do fraud/dishonesty if they think they won't get caught.

 

[Pygoscelis]

To those here who believe that religion is the sole source of ethics and good behaviour, I ask you why are atheists under-represented and not over-represented in prison for theft, murder, etc? The prisons should be overflowing with atheists if your claim was true and yet the reverse is actually the case (though its not strong enough in the other direction to lead me to make any claim that atheists are morally superior).