Wow...My convo with a Mormon

[Re.TiReD]

AssalamuAlaykum

Oki....This has left me kinda dumbstruck. I dont know why....but it has. You see the new member that has registered...Michael S (I think thats how u spell it) well its him so please welcome him warmly insha'Allah

I've never talked about Islam in this way...never questioned other religions either. And after talking for about an hour and a half...I have several questions of my own aswell. They probably have simple enough answers, but I'm going to ask anyway.

So...(I'm not sure if the word mormon is spelt correctly btw, sorry)

Anyway, we believe and accept Isa (Jesus) to be a Prophet, accept the miraculous birth, the Injeel...etc etc....as do the Mormons....and christians also I guess. My question is (to the non-muslims mainly), why was there a need for God to have a son? This gentleman said that it was because Jesus died for our sins and that Jesus was also the Creator...he created the world by the will of God. I dont understand that either, if God is All-Powerful and Great...to most He is known as the Creator of the universe, why was His 'son' believed to have Created the world?

Also, does it state anywhere in the bible that Jesus is the final messenger, or does it state that there will be a final messenger anywhere? Am I incorrect in thinking that there is a work that states that there are verses in the bible that foretell the coming of a final prophet (after Jesus) whose name will be 'the praised one' ... i.e. Muhammad or Ahmed? .. I'm sure I've heard that somewhere, please correct me if I am wrong.

Also....To anybody here, what are the things needed to qualify as a prophet? I mean the Prophet (saw) came both as a Prophet and a Messenger, he was the seal of the prophets and he had a unique purpose and message...but the mormons....they have a prophet now aswell. The conversation I had began with my question, 'what is it about this gentleman that leads you to believe that he is in some way different to everybody else and thus a prophet'... And from the answer I recevied...it seems to me that their prophet is the exact same as the shaykhs and scholars we have today....no difference apart from the fact that they appear to be held in much more higher esteem than their actual worth (no offence intended)... But my question is, why would anybody need a prophet now...? And would the verse (the one about taking their rabbi's and monks as lords) would that apply here?

JazakAllah khayr for any clarification.

Wassalam

 

[Follower]

I know Muslims wish it so, but there is nothing in the Bible that prophecies the coming of Mohammad.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, which means He is the beginning and the end. For the Christian there is no need to follow another prophet. Why would there need to be a prophet after Jesus?

There are many verses that warn us of false prophets. For a Christian a true prophet would have to preach what is stated in the Gospel.

Galatians 1
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

no difference apart from the fact that they appear to be held in much more higher esteem than their actual worth (no offence intended)... Christians believe that as mere men prophets can be sinners, just as all of us are saints and sinners

 

[جوري]

There is nothing of history to confirm Jesus, let alone as a God..
we have no wishes as far as your bible is concerned.. the disciples as per are incompetent, your God a little confused, about his being, and then he dies.. How can anyone possibly wish that for a book of confirmation?

all the best

 

[Yanal]

But there is proof for Prophet Isa (AS).

 

[جوري]

isn't it amazing how Jesus warned against false prophets, yet xtians pounced on the first false prophet to come their way? Saul.. he abrogated commandments that would have had Jesus crucified for real -- and then hordes afterward from unsaintly saints to Joan or Arc to the fellow who reformed Christianity and turned Jesus int thrice an adulterer...

Seems anyone telling christians to return to Monotheism is a false prophet, but every charlatan that lets them fulfil their most depraved and carnal and lowely desires isn't..
so they eat piggies, and sing and dance to idols, they take men for gods and others for saints, they have given away the covenant with Abraham, and they wear funny velvet brocade and cute convuloted hats that put Dr. Seuss' cat to shame...

Christianity in a nutshell. Confused discples.. questionable sources to authenticate, an inefeectual God who foresake himself after he prayed to himself three times.. now the two other gods take a back seat to Jesus...

The other day I purchased a book through ebay, and obviousely I have an ISlamic name, so I received my book with an evangelist message to Jesus plan to salavtion.. Haven't left the lady feedback yet, but when I do, I'll let it be known why Jesus plan to salavtion seemed to not avail Jesus himself, and that she wasting good paper, since the message isn't worth the paper it is printed on...

 

[جوري]

But there is proof for Prophet Isa (AS).

the writing of Josephus (100) c.e contain two passages,, the longer one a christian interpolation, for its glowing description is one no orthodox jew would accept -- the second passage has been scrutinized by Schuror, Zahn, von Dobschutz, juster and other scholars, and they regarded the words ''the brother os Jesus, him called christ;; as a further interpolation ...

if you mean evidence from the Quran, well frankly that doesn't count as far as xtians are concerned!

 

[malayloveislam]

In Islam, prophets are ma3soum (sinless). They have normal human-qualities, they go to toilet, they eat and drink, they sleep, they walk on the earth, they marry, they have children, etc.

But when a person is assigned as a prophet by G-d, they must have 4 characteristics. Siddiq (Speaking the Truth, Performing True Acts), Fathanah (Intelligent), Tabligh (Spreading the message), and Amanah (Trustworthy). They are impossible to be Kizzib (Liars), Kitman (Hiding the message), Khiana (Breaking the promise), Jahl (Ignorant).

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did not speak the verses of Quran from his own desire:

3. Nor does he (prophet Muhammad) say (aught) of (his own) Desire

4. It is no less than revelation sent down to him.

(Translation of Surah An-Najm by Abdullah Yusuf Ali: 3-4).

1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. (John 4)

How many interpretation can you make from the bold underlined phrases?

Is this language (English) used to spread the Bible? Is this a Bible or a translation manuscript of the Bible? The language style seems not English. Of course I'm not native English speaker, maybe it could be native English. Do you people make any research on the languages used in particular time, by whom, to which audience, in what place, what is the source language, where is the co-lineal source text since this is a religious text? It should be in both languages, the target and source language side-by-side for people to make comparison and interpretation purpose. I have a manuscript of Quran in Arabic with Malay translation co-lineal side-by-side. When I prayed and performing obligatory prayers acts I solely use Arabic not my native language. I can say prayers in my native language outside the prayers for G-d understand too other languages, the knowledge of languages is granted by Him.

For Christians, Paul, John, Luke, and etc might be their prophets. For us, our prophets are those who had the same lineage. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had the lineage from prophet Ismael (pbuh), who's the son of our father, prophet Abraham (pbuh). We do not simply believing in spirits without doing research. Our religion promotes the seeking of knowledge and researches (Surah al-3alaq).

Translation of Surah al-3alaq:

1. Proclaim! (or Read!) in the name of thy Lord and Cherisher, Who created-

2. Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood:

3. Proclaim! And thy Lord is most bountiful,-

4. He Who taught (the use of) the Pen,-

5. Taught man that which he knew not.

6. Nay, but man doth transgress all bounds.

7. In that he looketh upon himself as self-sufficient.

8. Verily, to thy Lord is the return (of all).

9. Seest thou one who forbids-

10. A votary when he (turns) to pray?

11. Seest thou if he is on (the road of) Guidance?-

12. Or enjoins righteousness?

13. Seest thou if he dinies (Truth) and turns away.

14. Knoweth he not that G-d doth see?

15. Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-

16. A lying, sinful forelock!

17. Then let him call (for help) to his council (comrades):

18. We will call on them angels of punishment (to deal with him)!

19. Nay, heed him not: but bow down in adoration, and bring thyself the closer (to G-d)!

We do not regard our prophet as divine, and that is why our religion is not known as Muhammadan. It is Islam, from the name of G-d (The Peace Guarantor). He is just a human assigned as a prophet and a messenger by G-d. His companions or disciples who reported events that they witnessed, are not prophets. Their narration of the reported events were included in Hadiths. Quran is not their report, and not prophet Muhammad (pbuh) report.

Arabic, Hebrew, Chaldean, and Aramaic are all ancient languages since BCE. Simple words had contextual meanings. They even can be broken into root words and still can be interpreted. English had developed around 6th C AD if I read it correct from English textbooks.

 

[memories]

There is nothing of history to confirm Jesus, let alone as a God..
we have no wishes as far as your bible is concerned.. the disciples as per are incompetent, your God a little confused, about his being, and then he dies.. How can anyone possibly wish that for a book of confirmation?

all the best

This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.

 

[جوري]

This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.

Given that the disciples themselves were confused about their roles- with peter disowning Jesus before his alleged crucifixion, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding.
further, I am not aware that Saul was a disciple-- before your God died, he was on bad terms with him.. then he had a miraculous vision whereby he turned a man into a God, and abrogated all the commandments, I notice that your God was ineffectual in abrogating his own commandments in person, so he delegates the task to his nemesis (for intrigue) ..
as for who is killing the innocent. Well one needs to turn on the TV to see how much pillaging and havoc your bible thumpers are causing to the other half of the world...

Talk about stupidity along side arrogance!

all the best

 

[memories]

isn't it amazing how Jesus warned against false prophets, yet xtians pounced on the first false prophet to come their way? Saul.. he abrogated commandments that would have had Jesus crucified for real -- and then hordes afterward from unsaintly saints to Joan or Arc to the fellow who reformed Christianity and turned Jesus int thrice an adulterer...

Seems anyone telling christians to return to Monotheism is a false prophet, but every charlatan that lets them fulfil their most depraved and carnal and lowely desires isn't..
so they eat piggies, and sing and dance to idols, they take men for gods and others for saints, they have given away the covenant with Abraham, and they wear funny velvet brocade and cute convuloted hats that put Dr. Seuss' cat to shame...

Christianity in a nutshell. Confused discples.. questionable sources to authenticate, an inefeectual God who foresake himself after he prayed to himself three times.. now the two other gods take a back seat to Jesus...

The other day I purchased a book through ebay, and obviousely I have an ISlamic name, so I received my book with an evangelist message to Jesus plan to salavtion.. Haven't left the lady feedback yet, but when I do, I'll let it be known why Jesus plan to salavtion seemed to not avail Jesus himself, and that she wasting good paper, since the message isn't worth the paper it is printed on...

The women had an act of kindness sending you that message, since you are obviously in deep darkness and hate, you so hate oppinions that differ form your's that you deem them ''unworthy of the paper it is printed on..'' you also take religion to the first level, for you religion is nothing but a bundle of rules to be folowed without compassion, without love of anybody else whos oppinion differ from yours. You wash the outside of the cup, but inside it is full of rotting things,hate,fear, and ignorance. a narrow and weak mind. Misguided faith has dire consequences... faith without love is hate!

''Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.''
-Saint Augustine


Regards

 

[جوري]

The women had an act of kindness sending you that message, since you are obviously in deep darkness and hate, you so hate oppinions that differ form your's that you deem them ''unworthy of the paper it is printed on..''

Given the 33,820 different denominations according to the Christian encyclopedia, I am pretty sure, she would take you too for a heretic. As for an act of kindness.. well I guess that is a relative term, especially when believing in the man/God has to come with bribes.. Who bribes people especially impoverished ones with bread in one hand contingent on accepting the man/god with the other?

you also take religion to the first level, for you religion is nothing but a bundle of rules to be folowed without compassion, without love of anybody else whos oppinion differ from yours. You wash the outside of the cup, but inside it is full of rotting things,hate,fear, and ignorance. a narrow and weak mind. Misguided faith has dire consequences... faith without love is hate!

So far, I have only heard a host of colorful adjectives.. I have always enjoyed that about bible belt fundies.. they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever!

''Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.''
-Saint Augustine

You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2002/05/stealth-crusade

according to Christians here it is ok to lie, bribe, malign, and disseminate wrong info to convert people into the medieval religion that made women akin to animals and thought the earth flat, and let people die of starvation while asking Muslims to offer less aid (potato crop failure anyone?)
It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!

Regards

all the best =)

 

[memories]

''the medieval religion that made women akin to animals''
Christain women have alot of liberty, I wish I could say the same thing about muslim women and it saddens me.

''they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever''
thats an oppinion not a fact.

''You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade''

My kin? uncalled for, hatefull and disrecpectfull, is that what god wills? hate and mockery?

''It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!''

It takes 2 seconds to formulate a shallow answer.

 

[جوري]

''the medieval religion that made women akin to animals''
Christain women have alot of liberty, I wish I could say the same thing about muslim women and it saddens me.

''they either bribe or thump or use florid language, but no facts whatsoever''
thats an oppinion not a fact.

''You should share that with your kin right here
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...tealth-crusade''

My kin? uncalled for, hatefull and disrecpectfull, is that what god wills? hate and mockery?

''It doesn't even take me two seconds to refute you.. oh the humanity!''

It takes 2 seconds to formulate a shallow answer.

I think the answer is far deeper than the reply, at least we have news articles and encyclopedic facts to confirm it.. What do you have?
should we start with grammar before we take the leap to substance?

It is already past my bedtime and I am so not in the mood for your ilk.. if you have something of substance to impart do so.. if not, quit wasting both our times.. Go join a christian forum and coax yourself into believing you have superior morals!

all the best

 

[memories]

I think the answer is far deeper than the reply, at least we have news articles and encyclopedic facts to confirm it.. What do you have?
should we start with grammar before we take the leap to substance?

It is already past my bedtime and I am so not in the mood for your ilk.. if you have something of substance to impart do so.. if not, quit wasting both our times.. Go join a christian forum and coax yourself into believing you have superior morals!

all the best

Articles and encyclopedics are no substitute for kindness, ''your ilk'' ''your kind'' again this is intolerance wich leads me to the conclusion that their is a possibility that your moral principles are indeed pherhaps weeker than mine, personal attacks on grammar or anything else wont help you making a point (english isnt my first language im french), and time spent arguing with an indoctrinated person such as you is wasted that much is right! and if you look closely you will find this to be so.

Regards :rollseyes

 

[جوري]

Articles and encyclopedics are no substitute for kindness, ''your ilk'' ''your kind'' again this is intolerance wich leads me to the conclusion that their is a possibility that your moral principles are indeed pherhaps weeker than mine, personal attacks on grammar or anything else wont help you making a point (english isnt my first language im french), and time spent arguing with an indoctrinated person such as you is wasted that much is right! and if you look closely you will find this to be so.

Regards :rollseyes

I am glad you have superior morals and great tolerance.. and I certainly hope they avail you!..
we all speak two or three languages on the side. If you can't engage folks on a level why embarrass yourself?-- I certainly couldn't care less whether or not you are grammatically correct! but no substance leads one to focus on grammar, when both are missing, it leaves one with very little to desire..


I am calling it a night, have a wonderful evening

all the best

 

[memories]

I am glad you have superior morals and great tolerance.. and I certainly hope they avail you!..
we all speak two or three languages on the side. If you can't engage folks on a level why embarrass yourself?-- I certainly couldn't care less whether or not you are grammatically correct! but no substance leads one to focus on grammar, when both are missing, it leaves one with very little to desire..


I am calling it a night, have a wonderful evening

all the best

Goodnight

 

[Grace Seeker]

This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.

Given that the disciples themselves were confused about their roles- with peter disowning Jesus before his alleged crucifixion, I'd say I have a pretty good understanding.
further, I am not aware that Saul was a disciple-- before your God died, he was on bad terms with him.. then he had a miraculous vision whereby he turned a man into a God, and abrogated all the commandments, I notice that your God was ineffectual in abrogating his own commandments in person, so he delegates the task to his nemesis (for intrigue) ..

M, one of the reasons that you find people occassionally saying what memories has said, that you show a poor understanding of the bible, are things like what you say in this very post. I've highlighted one small portion of it for you to clarify:

"Before your God died [I assume by this you mean Jesus] he was on bad terms with him [I assume from the context you mean Saul, aka Paul]. The problem is that there is no record that Jesus and Paul ever met prior to Jesus' death, or even prior to Jesus' ascension. The only recorded meeting between the two of them, took place some time after Jesus had already ascended to heaven, in which he appeared to Paul in a theophany that took place as Paul was on his way to persecute some of those who, post-Crucifixion/Resurrection event, had become followers of "the Way" (as the Christians were at that time known) under the preaching of Peter and the other disciples. But Paul was never one of that group of disciples. So, it is completely erroneous to say that "he [Jesus] was on bad tersm with him [Paul]", and truly does show a very poor understanding of the bible, just as memories has said -- and that's just one illustration out of many.


That's not said to insult. I know you try hard to represent what you do understand as best as you can, and often make insightful comments. For example, what you said about Josephus was spot on:

the writing of Josephus (100) c.e contain two passages,, the longer one a christian interpolation, for its glowing description is one no orthodox jew would accept -- the second passage has been scrutinized by Schuror, Zahn, von Dobschutz, juster and other scholars, and they regarded the words ''the brother os Jesus, him called christ;; as a further interpolation ...

Christians who use Josephus to "prove" anything about either Jesus or Christianity are just grasping at straws as the supposed evidence of those portions of Josephus' writings which purport to be about Jesus is about as genuine to Josephus as the supposed "Gospel of Barnabbas" is to the genuine Barnabbas.

But at other times, you antipathy toward all things Christian clouds your judgment and produces mis-statesments such as your one above where you have Jesus and Paul on the outs with each other before Jesus is supposed to have died, when the truth is that the Biblical story records their first contact with each other did not occur until well after Jesus had already gone to heaven.

 

[جوري]

I take this to mean that Jesus and Saul were great friends?:

Saul Meets His Enemy
"And I persecuted the Way unto death, binding and putting both men and women into prisons...And it came about that I was on my way to Damascus in order to bring even those who were there to Jerusalem to be punished. And...a very bright light suddenly flashed from heaven all around me, and I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?' And I answered, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' And He said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazarene, whom you are persecuting'...And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' (ACTS 22:4-10). This was certainly an unforeseen turn of events! But it would certainly take something like this to cause a dedicated man such as Saul to turn his whole life in the opposite direction so suddenly. Nothing else can explain the change in Paul's life. As we have already seen, he had everything going for him, and he is about to give it all up for Jesus! He is about to say "good-bye" to his status, prestige and power and "hello" to prisons, persecution and poverty. And after it is all done, he will write about how happy he was to have made such a choice, how spiritually rich and joyful he had become and about how wonderfully bright his eternal future with the Lord would be.


you are right in part.... jesus never appointed saul an apostle, clearly Saul, was an enemy of your God -- who saw the light and abrogated his commandments well after your god's death..
Your God didn't see fit to abrogate his commandments though his chosen apostles, but through a nemesis.. and I'd say even if they have never met, shouldn't your god know of the creatures he created and what hides in their hearts?

and you want to talk about false prophets and poor understanding? pls sort out this mess first before you lecture me on semantics as you so often do with winded sermons and miss the entire point!

 

[memories]

and you want to talk about false prophets and poor understanding? pls sort out this mess first before you lecture me on semantics as you so often do with winded sermons and miss the entire point!

It always strikes me to see how Muslim women are often the most indoctrinated and radical ones when it comes to discussing about religion, It strikes me because they are often the ones to suffer the most because of this religion.

The muslim world has kept their women under veils depriving them of all forms of liberty, education and employment just look at the Burka of Afghan womenand at the hijab of Iranian women, this is why Im always surprised to see that its most fierce advocates are often ''sisters in islam'' they should be the ones longing for a change shouldn't they? Its incredible!

I think most of the religious rules regarding muslim women are actually means of social controll, so that men can have a tight grip over women's lives, some form of dominating relation. And dont serve me the ''islam is a modern religion that gives alot of rights to women'' crap, one only has to read news about lapidated women etc to see that its not true. Brainwashing and fear is what its all about.

 

[GreyKode]

This answer shows a very poor understanding of the bible, or pretty much any other religion so far as muslims are concerned,arrogantly Judging the Disciples who wrote the good book,without facts. Using ''your god'' its this kind of arrogance that drive men to plant bombs and kill innocents.

What is this ridiculousness about bombs and killing innocents, why don't you think like that about atheists who mock not just your GOD?