Yes, Atheists do Exist.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Pygoscelis
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I don't know if you were talking to me or not, Pygoscelis, but let me put it this way. Try to focus on making people understand the situation better--what you take to be the truth about the whole world--and not your own self. Whether God exists is what's important here. Don't get your priorities out of whack. Everyone in the world feels like nobody else "gets" them. Sorry but that's life.
 
IamZamzam is a real performance artist. He entered a thread I made, posted very rudely, got frustrated I didn't agree with him, put me on ignore, flaunted putting me on ignore, quoted me, and now addresses me.

What am I to make of that?

Whether God exists is what's important here.
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No, that is not what this thread is about.
 
So what is this thread about?

Pygoscelis said:
In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.



This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.
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Iceee said:
So what is this thread about?
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See the thread title too. It is about the fact that atheists do indeed exist despite the frequent statements from theists here stating or implying they don't. It is also an attempt to understand why this confusion is so prevalent.

I think my friend's theory is better than the one in the video, and Berries also had some interesting ideas.

If you can scan past Zamzam's melt down, I think we have had a prerty good discussion here.
 
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Pygoscelis said:
I am an atheist.
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At the risk of opening this can of worms AGAIN, Pygo, can you explain what makes you think of yourself as an atheist, rather than what Yusuf calls a radical agnostic?

Because I think I can kind of see where he is coming from.

Since none of us KNOW with absolute certainty whether God does exist or not, are we not all agnostic in some way?

If as an atheist you say you don't believe that God exists, but you have no absolute proof of it - does that not mean you have to call yourself an agnostic?

In the same way, of course, believers do not have absolute proof about God's existence ... so perhaps we all ALL agnostics? :D
 
Pygo is an atheist... an atheist by classic definition can be found in many dictionaries... and seems to suit him well.

Scimi
 
atheists are those who have interpreted events in life differently to us and made decisions based on those interpretations till their conclusion (though we hope it is not a final one) became the disbelief in a Creator.

For example if I see a man feel better with full understanding of biology, immune system etc I will still believe that God willed his immune system and any other organism involved in the recovery whereas he refuses to believe anything further.

Same for accidents/crashes/common every day occurrences and everything else in life. denial after denial leads to atheism. Of course it would.

Allah is not unjust - atheists wrong themselves countless times before the darkness of disbelief
 
glo said:
If as an atheist you say you don't believe that God exists, but you have no absolute proof of it - does that not mean you have to call yourself an agnostic?

In the same way, of course, believers do not have absolute proof about God's existence ... so perhaps we all ALL agnostics? :D
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Yes... that pretty much covers it. If we use the word "agnostic" that way then I think any sane person is an agnostic, which renders the term of little use.

This is why I prefer the other common definition for "agnostic", being a person who believes it is not possible to know or find evidence for if there are Gods or not.

I also prefer the other common definition of "atheist", being a person who lacks belief in a God, and that is what I am.
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
atheists are those who have interpreted events in life differently to us and made decisions based on those interpretations till their conclusion (though we hope it is not a final one) became the disbelief in a Creator.

For example if I see a man feel better with full understanding of biology, immune system etc I will still believe that God willed his immune system and any other organism involved in the recovery whereas he refuses to believe anything further.

Same for accidents/crashes/common every day occurrences and everything else in life. denial after denial leads to atheism. Of course it would.

Allah is not unjust - atheists wrong themselves countless times before the darkness of disbelief
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I see that your emoticon says "worried". Perhaps you should make your words better match your emotions. This doesn't sound like worry to me. It sounds like hatefulness and dismissal. It's likelier to make them turn further away, make them feel like they have more of an excuse to hate us, and thus give you more cause for worry than you had before.
 
Pygoscelis said:
Sweet :) You are mine as well.

You are making me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

But no, I still won't marry you.
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:D I knew that was coming :D can i atleast get a *brohug* ? :)

anyway,

I wonder if you knew about the little experiment Sir Isaac Newton conducted in order to teach his friend how his belief in no God was uhm, for lack of a better expression, illogical.


:) Scimi
 
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Scimitar, as magnificent a story as that is, do you really think it’s going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone? I’ve been down this road too many times before. What happens is always the same. The atheist always says something like, “Pssh, that’s just that ‘obsolete’ old watchmaker analogy of Paley’s that’s been ‘refuted ages ago’ (i.e. “People long before me have been expressing disagreement with you’).” Why are we even trying anymore? What’s the point?
 
IAmZamzam said:
Scimitar, as magnificent a story as that is,
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You think so too? :) :) pleased.

IAmZamzam said:
do you really think it’s going to have any effect whatsoever on anyone?
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I'm an optimist, and realistic one at that. I never give up. If I find something not going the way i planned, I walk back and find another way... there are many ways to skin a cat.

IAmZamzam said:
been down this road too many times before. What happens is always the same. The atheist always says something like, “Pssh, that’s just that ‘obsolete’ old watchmaker analogy of Paley’s that’s been ‘refuted ages ago’ (i.e. “People long before me have been expressing disagreement with you’).” Why are we even trying anymore? What’s the point?
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I have hope for him. He is not an evil intended person. he's been a member here for 9 years.... he likes us. That's obvious to me... I like him, he's a reasonable sort.

And you can reason with reasonable people.

I'd like him to make his points, not you to make his points for him bro Zamzam. if you've failed in this regard in your past efforts, I'd appreciate if you just watched from the sidelines, rather than imagine that it will always be the same with others, as it was with you.

Scimi
 
IAmZamzam said:
I see that your emoticon says "worried". Perhaps you should make your words better match your emotions. This doesn't sound like worry to me. It sounds like hatefulness and dismissal. It's likelier to make them turn further away, make them feel like they have more of an excuse to hate us, and thus give you more cause for worry than you had before.
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i have had real life discussions with atheist colleagues who in their words love me in this same manner.

they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer
 
And you can reason with reasonable people
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Can you indeed?? I'm no longer as sure as I used to be. I'm getting less and less confident, the more time goes by, that you can reason with humans.

However, watching from the sidelines has a certain amount of value to it. And fun.

i have had real life discussions with atheist colleagues who in their words love me in this same manner.

they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer
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I hope they do too.
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
they didnt see hate and disgust. they know i only express sincere views and i hopemthis forum members can look past the cold text and see the outreach i offer
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You don't come across as hateful or aggressive to me at all. I hope I don't come across as hateful to you either. We both have views that the other may disagree with, dislike, or even find objectionable, but that doesn't make us rude or insincere. We can have complete polar opposite views and still have polite and interesting conversation, as you are and Scimitar and glo and Berries and MustafaMC and GuestFellow and others have all done with me in this thread. It is actually so nice to see that on this forum.

Zamzam seems to want to be on the attack and since he put me on ignore he's now turned on his fellow muslims lol
 
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Scimitar said:
I have hope for him. He is not an evil intended person. he's been a member here for 9 years.... he likes us. That's obvious to me... I like him, he's a reasonable sort.
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Zamzam is correct that you are probably never going to convert me to Islam. And I have no intent, interest, or expectation of converting anybody away from Islam. That isn't why I am here. I would prefer you guys saw my presence on this forum not so much as a chance to convert somebody, which will likely only end in frustration, but as a chance to discuss and interchange ideas from our differing perspectives. That's why I came here.

I have learned a lot about Islam since I came to this forum with SnakeLegs (I miss SnakeLegs) so long ago, and I have made some good friends along the way. Many of you here are my go to people when I experience something or see a news story that somehow involves Islam and I want the opinions and views of actual muslims, which are not that common or outspoken where I live.

PS - I haven't watched the video you posted yet, as I am out and only have my phone to read all this on.
 
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IAmZamzam said:
Can you indeed?? I'm no longer as sure as I used to be. I'm getting less and less confident, the more time goes by, that you can reason with humans.

However, watching from the sidelines has a certain amount of value to it. And fun.

I hope they do too.
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:) I understand. Sometimes even I lose steam... and take breaks away :) we're only human. But I don't like to give up. So I keep plodding on. Hitting brick walls. Or facepalming. I bet that's fun watching form the sidelines :D

Pygo said:
Zamzam is correct that you are probably never going to convert me to Islam. And I have no intent, interest, or expectation of converting anybody away from Islam. That isn't why I am here. I would prefer you guys saw my presence on this forum not so much as a chance to convert somebody, but as a chance to discuss and interchange ideas from our differing perspectives. That's why I came here.

I have learned a lot about Islam since I came to this forum with SnakeLegs (I miss SnakeLegs) so long ago, and I have made some good friends along the way. Many of you here are my go to people when I experience something or see a news story that somehow involves Islam and I want the opinions and views of actual muslims, which are not that common or outspoken where I live.
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Yeah it's sad about snakelegs. I read about her months back, she seemed really sweet. May Allah accept her shahadah, Ameen.

Well, at any rate, conversion or no, I'm pleased you are here bro Pygo. :)

I highlighted a particular part of your text. I like this from you. We get to learn more about eachother this way :)

I don't think I've tried to convert you though...just marry you :D NAAAAAT

Scimi
 

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