Subhannallah, I have been given the opportunity to do hajj this year. I am very grateful to Allah and to the person who is helping me do this. But there is something that bothers me a bit. I had to prove that I was a Muslim by having someone at a local masjid sign a paper stating that I was a Muslim. Apparently, the Saudi authorities say that if a person has a "non-Muslim" name, and lives in the "West", that this paper is necessary. However, if I have a "Muslim" family name (and I don't think they mean if it's an Islamically correct name), no paper is necessary.
This doesn't make sense to me. If I was a Christian or atheist (say), but I had an Arab or Pakistani or whatever-sounding name, I could go to Mecca, no problem. No one would grill me on my authenticity. But if I happen to have a French-sounding name...
I don't know. Perhaps I've misunderstood something here. But it seems to me that this is discriminatory.
Any thoughts on this? And have I misunderstood something? I do hope so.
Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah. Blessings to you for your pilgrimage.
And, nope, you did not misunderstand it, the Saudis have. Some people mistake their culture with religion. They need to know that, having an Arabic-Turkish-Persian-Pakistani name doesn't mean someone is a Muslim. And having a western name doesn't mean someone is a non-Muslim. Saudi "royals" need to know this and they need to be khadim-i haramayn (servants of the two sanctuaries). They need to make it easier, not difficult. As the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalih) says; "Make things easy, and do not make them difficult, and give good tidings and do not make people run away."
But, the limits on number of pilgrims per countries, and the challenges for western Muslims as you say, is pretty unjust. And Quran adresses this. (Please note that the reason of the revelation of verses does not limit the meaning and application of the verses). See; Quran 2:114 "And who is more unjust than he who forbids that in places for the worship of God, God's name should be celebrated?..." Though the verse adressed the polytheists of Mecca for prohibiting Muslims from pilgrimage, we shouldn't forget that Quranic verses have reflections in all times. Said Nursi, for instance, last century, denoted that Tukish ban on using God's name in Arabic in the call for prayers, Ataturk's and later the Turkish governments' turning Mosques into Museums and closing Medreses /Madrassahs/ and Tekkes /Takkas/ and all that and the acts of Saudi "royals" today are the adressees of this same verse. It is most unjust of them to stop, prohibit, discourage or make it hard to go to the worshipping places and celebrate the praises of the Lord. I hope it changes soon.
Thank you for the moral support. The proof question bothered me. It's nice to know that there are others who feel the same way. But it's a pity that the discrimination exists. It would have been nice to have been mistaken.
Dr. Shariati's book does, indeed, look very interesting. I like the poetic style. The translators have done a good job, I think. I do wonder one thing though (forgive my ignorance, please): do Shia and Sunni Muslims have the same Hajj rites?
Blessing to you in your pilgrimage, and sorry for what happened to you in Mecca.
You are right, it doesn’t not make sense at all for them to allow whoever they want based on their names, a lot of things in Saudi Arabia need to change, including this law which is absurd.
I read that in Turkey and Egypt (correct me if I’m wrong) they add your religion in your ID card, which I find weird! Did you guys hear about this?
Sister MuslimInshaAllah, it is nice you like the book. It is indeed the best on the topic and I especially like the focus about the meaning of rituals, the unity and harmony of Muslims etc. And, yes, he was a great writer. And, his other books such as "Man and Islam" (especially the part about "Four Prisons of Man") enchants many.
And about the differences of sunni and shia Muslims regarding Hajj, you won't find such things in that book. Because it is not on jurisprudence, rather it is, as you already know, on the philosophy and the message of the rituals of Hajj. And Hajj is gathering which unites all Muslims and I wouldn't look for differences especially in this. However, if you have to know, there is the concept of mut'ah al-hajj some Muslims differ about.
And sister Saja, I don't know about Egypt but, in Turkey, yes we have Islam mentioned in our ID Cards. ma salam.
by the shariah, all we really need is to declare our faith by saying the shahadah to officials upon entry to the holy cities... but they stopped that and adopted westernised protocols for authenitcation - ie: certificates.
it's the times we're living in.
Just be patient and do what has to be done, and do it all in the name of Allah.
Well, the state of Turkey has no religion, it is sadly secular (and worse, it is Sufyani) but the people are dominantly Muslims. And yes, though I need to note that non-muslims are very few in number, they CAN mention their religions or atheism in their ID's if they want to, but they don't have to do it either.
This may be because only Muslims are allowed in Mecca and Madina. Non-Muslims are not allowed. So, if your name is unislamic, how can they know you are Muslim? In some passports, the religion is written, so that may have been enough. but if your passport doesn't have information about religion and you have an unislamic sounding name, then it's possible they would want some proof that you're Muslim. Anyway, nothing to be upset about.
So, if your name is unislamic, how can they know you are Muslim?
sorry, but this is common misconception that Muslims need "islamic" names - meaning "Arab" names... it's simply not true.
Arabian countries house over 10 million Christians who have Arab names.
In fact - the only Muslim names you can find are the ones with "Abd" as a prefix and an attribute of Allah as a suffix... and these, are usually given to men, for example Abd'Allah... but is it a requirement in Islam to have Islamicised or even Arab names?
The short answer is NO.
To this day, Sh. Hamza Yusuf regrets changing his name to an Arab one...
To become a Muslim, it is not a requirement to change your name. Period. The Saud authority has ignored the basic rules of pilgrim entry into the holy cities, and instead adopted westernised practice of authentication - which is against the sunnah. I believe it is actually a bidah they adopted in lieu of the declaration of shahadah...
...we live in an age now where apparently, your shahadah isn't good enough.
How to prove that I am Muslim?. Through showing my ID card which Islam mentioned in religion column.
My name is not Muslim name. And believe it or not, although I live in Muslim majority country, sometime I assumed as non-Muslim just because my face!.
Sometime I assumed as Chinese, and people have assumption that if someone is Chinese, he must be non-Muslim, just like if someone is Arab, he must be Muslim, if someone is Caucasian, he must be non-Muslim.
Excuse me sister MuslimInshallah, are you Caucasian?.
Like I've said, there is an assumption that Caucasian must be non-Muslim.
Am I Caucasian? (smile) You mean of European descent, I think, not from the Caucasus (there are actually many Muslim Caucasians in the Caucasus) . And yes, I am of mixed European descent. And my family name means something in French.
Scimitar is correct. An Arab name is not what is required of an Islamic name. An Islamic name is supposed to mean or symbolize something beautiful. It can be in Arabic or any other language. And indeed, there are names in many other languages that are accepted by many Muslims as Islamic.
There is a discrimination when only certain-looking people (to be deduced by their names, from only a select group of languages) are required to prove their Islam, while others are not. If it is a requirement for only Muslims to go to Mecca, then all people going should be asked to profess their faith.
But indeed, this was not even asked of me. I just had to provide a letter from a local masjid declaring that I was a Muslim. I was actually not even present. The man organizing the tour got it from a masjid administrator (who, yes, does know me).I didn't declare my shahada officially before anyone. Actually, I never have. When I discovered Islam, this was not something people did, as far as I know. And by the time I found out and asked about it, I was told it didn't matter. (smile) I guess the fact that I'm declaring it quietly 17 times a day was deemed enough.
I can live with this discrimination, of course. (smile) If this was enough to knock the Islam out of me, it would have happened a long time ago!
But people should reflect on what this kind of discrimination does to our youth. There are many people who are finding Islam in my country. And there are even more children born here of first-generation immigrant, or mixed immigrant-Canadian families. And these children are marrying and mixing even more. There are more and more people here with Arab/Pakistani/Senegalese/etc names who have left Islam, and more and more people with English/French/Native Canadian names who are Muslims. This dividing of people by ethnicity as shown by names is not right, and worse, gives a terrible message about Islam to our youth and to non-Muslims.
This is what bothers me the most.
Last edited by MuslimInshallah; 09-01-2014 at 11:54 PM.
very interesting, can you explain why Turkey is Sufyani? thank you
Please refer to "The Fifth Ray" by Said Nursi. He gives examples on the founder of Turkey Ataturk, his actions and actions of Turkish government later, which did not change till this very day except their becoming more hypocrite. And Said Nursi again takes hadiths about the end of time and interprets them as is and shows how the hadiths on sufyani (hypocrite) apply on Turkish government. ma salam
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
[...]She believes many erroneous stereotypes. She told me that women were not allowed in the masajid! I was a bit shocked, and decided to go anyway. But she was so wrong. In Istanbul at any rate, the women's sections were ample, convenient and the women were welcoming.[...]
I won't comment on the family issues as it is none of my business, but about the part I quoted, I need to say that she is partly right. In Turkey women are discouraged (it is like not allowed) to perform daily prayers in congregation in all local mosques except the big mosques in city centres. And it is as you witnessed because none of the praying people there are permanent visitors. They just happen to be there and pray. That is why you witnessed women section and them praying. If the women were in (their) neighbourhoods, praying in the mosques is a nope to them here when they can pray in their houses. What is more ironic is, this doesn't apply in taraweeh/nawafil prayers in the month of Ramadan. And it is silly. The Turkish women are discouraged to pray five daily prayers in congregation and it is not allowed for them to pray jum'ah (all of which are obligatory prayers), but they are allowed and encouraged to pray the nawafil (voluntary) prayers of Ramadan in congregation, in the local mosques.
In any case, you should not condemn your sister in law. It is the sufyani regime here which has forced Muslims to become secular and it is their ministries of "religion" which made people have a distorted understanding of religion. So, please pray for her. And please pray that we change the sufyani government, so that people have a chance to practice undistorted Islam. ma salam.
I've looked into the Sufyani hadeeth during my early days on WUP-FORUM, and to be honest, the example of Ataturk being the Sufyani is totally not correct. For him to be the Sufyani, he'd have to apparently invade Iraq, and start killing by ripping the babies out of pregnant mothers... further, he would go to fight the mahdi and his (sufyani's) army would be swallowed up in Arabia... to my knowledge, that hasn't happened yet.
Turkey is seen as Ar Rum by some scholars.
Sufyani is termed this way because he would be a descendant of Abu Sufyan.
It seems to me that scholar Said Nursi was trying to determine who the sufyani is but from an historical context - when the reality is, he hasn't arrived yet - or my opinion - he could be the so called Kaliph Ibraheem from IS.
And about rule of Muslim name, I never heard rule like this and I am not sure if there is a rule like this. But from what I've noticed, Saudi officials on the field often do improvisation with require something that actually not required, or prohibit something that actually not prohibited.
I think we are derailing the thread but, if I have to answer, we should not think of the terms such as Sufyani as a person. It might be that the Prophet used such terms for different reasons. So, I believe Sufyani to be a movement. And as I said, the 5th Ray, explains it well. But, I need to note that Turkish govt. is the pioneer of the Sufyani movement. Here, you can see Erdoğan, admitting a few years ago, in many occasions, that he is and Turkey being one of the leading figures of USA's new Middle East and North Africa plan.
(I can subtitle it if you wish. But I think you trust me and there is no need for that.)
So, Sufyani Turkish govt. has been working for this agenda. And the "IS" still stands today because of the Turkish recruiting, training, funding and arming of such terrorists there. IS, Nusra, and etc. are just tools of the Sufyani. I hope I make sense.
As far as the hadiths go about the current conflicts, I am aware of that.
"We are the people of a Household for whom Allah has chosen the Hereafter rather than this world. The people of my Household will suffer a great deal after my death, and will be persecuted until a people carrying black banners will come out of the east (Iran). They will instruct the people to do good, but the people will refuse; they will fight until they are victorious, and the people do as they asked, but they will not accept it from them until they hand over power to a man (Mahdi) from my hosuehold. Then the earth will be filled with fairness, just as it had been filled with injustice. If any of you live to see this, you should go to him even if you have to crawl across ice."
"When you see some black flags (the fake ones), remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (Don’t get involved in their fighting). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron (ruthless). They are the representatives of the State (Ashab al-Dawla; DAEESH - ISIS). They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu so-and-so], and their ascriptions will be to regions [e.g. Masri, Baghdadi, etc.] Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then Allah will bring forth the truth from whomever He wills."
Suyuti records; "The son of the liver eating (Hind); Sufyani shall emerge in a dry valley. They shall arrange an army of ruthless and heartless people from the tribe of Kalb and they will oppress everyone. He will destroy Madrassahs (and shrines) and Masjids (Mosques) and punish whomever bows down and prostrates (the pious people of the region). He will oppress, make mischief and create chaos. He will kill the scholars and the devotees and monks. He will invade many cities. He will betray the pure people and shed their blood and he will be the enemies to the progeny of Muhammad."
Again Suyuti narrates: "There appears among Banu Abbas (Iraq) people with (fake) black flags, then there shall appear another army from Khorasan (Iran) with (true) black flags. Their turbans will be black (Syeds) and clothes will be white. They will be lead by Shuaib bin Saleh Tamimi. They shall defeat the army of Sufyani (hypocrites) and prepare the ground for the Kingdom of Mahdi in al-Quds (Jerusalem). In Sham (Syria and Iraq) 300 people will help them. Between the emergence of this army and the ruling of al-Mahdi, there is 72 months (6 years)."
I disagree with the whole "sufyani is a movement" thing, on that basis - I think the whole premise fails.
especially in light of this:
Abu Hurayrah has narrated that the Prophet pbuh said:
"A man will emerge from the depths of Damascus. He will be called Sufyaani. Most of those who follow him will be from the tribe of Kalb. He will kill by ripping the stomachs of women and even kill the children. A man from my family will appear in the Haram, the news of his advent will reachthe Sufyaani and he willsend to him one of his armies. He (referring to the Mahdi) will defeat them. They will then travel with whoever remains until they come to a desert and they will be swallowed. None will be saved except the one who had informed the others about them."(Mustadrak)
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