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Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Attitudes on apostasy softening? (OP)


    I came across this article, which I thought was interesting.
    I am highlighting the parts which particularly struck me:

    There's a widespread belief that the penalty for leaving Islam is death - hence, perhaps, the killing of a British teacher last week. But Shiraz Maher believes attitudes may be softening.

    Ziya Meral's parents disowned him when he converted from Islam to Christianity.

    "They said 'go away, you're not our son.' They told people I died in an accident rather than having the shame of their son leaving Islam."

    Born and raised in Turkey, he decided to convert to Christianity after moving to university. He knew telling his parents would be a difficult moment even though they're not particularly observant Muslims, and he planned to break the news to them gently.

    In the end, events overtook him. Before heading back to Turkey for the holidays, Ziya briefly visited a Christian summer camp where he was filmed eating a bowl of spaghetti.

    The first his parents heard of his conversion was when they saw Ziya on the national news being described as "an evil missionary" intent on "brainwashing" Turkish children.

    His parents decided they would rather tell people that he was dead than acknowledge he was a Christian. And Ziya, who now lives in the UK, is not alone in this experience.

    Sophia, which is not her real name, faced similar pressures when she decided to become a Christian.

    Coming from a Pakistani background but living in east London, 28-year-old Sophia spoke about the extreme cultural pressures her family put her under.

    "They kept saying: 'The punishment is death, do you know the punishment is death?'"

    In the end, Sophia ran away from home. Her mother tracked her down and turned up at her baptism.

    "I got up to get baptised, that's when my mother got up, ran to the front and tried to pull me out of the water.

    "My brother was really angry. He reacted and phoned me on my mobile and just said: 'I'm coming down to burn that church.'"

    For Sophia and Ziya, a lot of the prejudice they faced seemed to be borne out of cultural ideas, which are particularly ingrained in the South Asian community relating to notions of family honour.

    But it's too easy to say this is just a cultural problem. Dig a little deeper and you find that there is a theological argument which advocates the death penalty for apostates, which has serious implications for British society.

    Last week, British teacher Daud Hassan Ali, 64, was shot dead in Somalia. His widow, Margaret Ali, said her husband was targeted by Islamists who "believe it is ok to kill any man who was born into Islam and left the faith".

    Those renouncing their faith for atheism or agnosticism are viewed in a similar way to those who adopt another faith.

    A poll conducted by the Policy Exchange last year suggested that over a third of young British Muslims believe that the death penalty should apply for apostasy.

    Until recently, I would have shared that view, but since personally rejecting extremism myself, I've been re-examining the issues which I once regarded as conclusive.

    Discretion

    I was staggered to learn that the Quran does not say anything about punishing apostates and that its proponents use two hadiths instead to support their view. Hadiths are the recorded traditions and sayings of the Prophet which, in addition to the Quran, provide an additional source of Islamic law.

    The hadiths which relate to apostasy are linguistically ambiguous and open to interpretation. Distinguished scholars told me that the hadiths actually speak about a death penalty for treason, not apostasy. And even then, they stressed the punishment is discretionary.


    Dr Hisham Hellyer is a Fellow of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies at University of Oxford, and has researched classical Islamic law.

    He believes the death penalty punishment is no longer applicable and should be suspended under certain circumstances.

    Usama Hassan, a Cambridge-educated scientist and an imam, goes further and says the classical scholars were wrong in how they interpreted the Quran. He is unequivocal in denouncing those who advocate the death penalty.

    "I believe the classical law of apostasy in Islam is wrong and based on a misunderstanding of the original sources, because the Quran and Hadith don't actually talk about a death penalty for apostasy."

    Last year Egypt's Grand Mufti, Ali Gomaa, unequivocally told the Washington Post that the death penalty for apostasy simply no longer applies. It provoked a flurry of debate in Egypt and the wider Middle East.

    Traitor

    The idea of killing apostates has become a resurgent theme in recent years, a fact closely-related to the increasing politicisation of Islam since 9/11.

    It epitomises the "us and them" mentality felt by many Muslims between themselves and the West. And there's an uncomfortable conclusion to all this.

    Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam
    Shiraz Maher

    If there is a death penalty for treason, then who defines what treason is?

    Earlier this year a group of men from Birmingham pleaded guilty to charges of conspiring to kidnap and behead a British Muslim solider because they regarded him as a traitor. Joining the British army was to them treason against Islam.

    So while the debate surrounding one aspect of apostasy continues, it is simultaneously throwing up an entirely new series of challenges around other issues including what should be considered treason against Islam.

    When Ziya talked about what happened to him, he was just finishing a report on the experiences of apostates, called No Place to Call Home. He had interviewed 28 apostates in six different countries as part of a year-long research project.

    His report found that although the death penalty is rarely applied through the courts, apostates still face gross and wide-ranging human rights abuses at the hands of the state, radical groups and local communities."

    It seems that Muslim attitudes towards apostasy are a metaphor for the wider struggle taking place within Islam, between those who argue for a progressive form of Islam and those who argue for more dogmatic interpretations.

    Attitudes to apostasy may be a useful barometer for judging where it's headed.
    (Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7355515.stm)

    As always, I am interested to hear how people personally feel about this.
    And how they would apply it to their personal circumstances.

    How far would you go, if a close member of your family or circle of friends became an apostate?
    Would you wish for them to be killed?
    Would you cut them out of your life?
    Would you threaten them?
    Would you pretend they were dead?
    Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?

    Looking forward to your replies.

    Salaam.
    Last edited by glo; 04-22-2008 at 01:36 AM. Reason: typo ...
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Would you cut them out of your life?
    Yes

    Would you threaten them?
    like ill kill you or something? No. even though apostasy is a crime punishable by death this cant just be done by anyone. as far as im aware it would need to go through court.

    Would you continue to socialise with them and talk to them?
    no theyd be cut out of my life...
    and i would pray for their guidance or they get what they deserve.
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    There is a radio programme on this very article playing right now on BBC4 radio.
    Former Muslim radical Shiraz Maher spent his student days campaigning for an Islamic caliphate in which execution for renouncing Islam would be written into the constitution. Now Shiraz is calling for moderation and greater Muslim integration into British life, a stance which has meant he himself is now labelled an apostate by some Muslim radicals, for which the penalty is death. He asks whether such an extreme punishment is really justified by the Qu'ran and the example of the Prophet Muhammad.
    Repeated: Sunday 27 April 2008 17:00-17:40 (Radio 4 FM)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/pip/2fcan/
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    glocandle ani 1 - Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Here I stand.
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    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    i think the best way to deal with this issue is how some of the great Islamic scholars have advised: I heard in one of the lectures that Shaykh ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (May Allah have mercy on him) said that instead of immediately putting the apostate to death we should give him dawa'h and encourage him to come back. Here is the view of some of the other scholars (May Allah have mercy on them)

    The apostate is not to be put to death immediately after he falls into apostasy, especially if his apostasy happens because of some doubt that arose. Rather he should be asked to repent and he should be offered the opportunity to return to Islam and resolve his doubts, if he has any doubts. Then if he persists in his apostasy after that, he is to be put to death.

    Ibn Qudaamah said in al-Mughni, 9/18:

    The apostate should not be put to death until he has been asked to repent three times. This is the view of the majority of scholars, including ‘Umar, ‘Ali, ‘Ata’, al-Nakhaii, Maalik, al-Thawri, al-Awzaa’i, Ishaaq and others. Because apostasy comes about because of doubt, and cannot be dispelled in an instant. Time should be allowed for the person to rethink the matter, and the best length of time is three days.
    Source: http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14231&ln=eng
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

    I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

    Can somebody help me?

    Salaam
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    glocandle ani 1 - Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Here I stand.
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    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

    I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

    Can somebody help me?

    Salaam
    Peace

    do you have any idea at all if this person was a shia?
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
    Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrar
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    I wouldn't put money on it since gambling is haram, but yeah probably shia, since there's no such thing as "infallible imam" in Islam
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Thank you for the link, islamirama.
    I enjoyed watching it. And I liked the speaker.

    I didn't hear anything which seemed to contradict the notion of the article I posted - reasons for punishment being that of threat to Islam (i.e. treason) rather that the life choice of one individual.
    One comment that stood our to me, was that apostates who just turn from their faith quietly, should not require punishment.

    I specifically asked my questions on a personal level.
    The reason is, that I think it is easy for us to look down on those who do wrong, and to be ready to pass judgment on the and demand that justice be done.

    What I am interested in, is whether we would still apply those measures, if the people committing the wrong are people close to us?
    Would somebody really throw his son/daughter out of the house, if they became apostates?
    Would somebody really never speak to his brother/sister again?
    Would somebody really become involved in the killing of a close family member?

    Clearly some people do.
    Perhaps we cannot answer those questions for ourselves, until we really find ourselves in such situations ...
    But it is worth searching our own feelings and conscience.

    Peace
    I"m glad you found the video illuminating.

    There were Muslims who had turned Christians at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) and he didn't hunt them down or anything. Clearly salman Rushdie and other anti-islam bigot ex-Muslims would be deserving of this punishment because they are clearly waging a war against Islam. Some Christians even criticized the pope for publicly baptizing this one ex-Muslim when uk's PM Blair was done in private. They questioned the faith of such an ex-Muslim because when someone converts to another religion (be it Islam or Christianity or what not) they do it out of love for that new religion and not hate for the old one, nor go on a hatred anti-religion rampage like a blind lunatic.

    As for your questions on a personal level. It really depends from family to family and region to region. Those who are more cultural based will take more aggressive approach then those who are more islamic knowledge based.

    As for the speaker. He is an african american convert. he's name is Bilal Phillips. Search him in youtube and you'll see many of his talks uploaded. Look for contemporary issue series to watch similar videos to the one i shared.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    In the above mentioned radio programme I heard an Imam make the statement that although the death penalty exists in Islam, it was only ever be intended to be carried out by 'the infallible imaams'.

    I don't know what that means, or who the infallible imaams are.

    Can somebody help me?

    Salaam
    I may be misreading. But to me it seems that the Imam is stating that while the death penalty exists, it can not be carried out as the only ones who could carry it out would be infallible Imams. In other words there is nobody qualified to carry the penalty out.
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by barney View Post
    Nutshelled; Kill apostates unless you are allied with them or they offer a treaty and are not attacking you.
    Qur`an 4:88-91
    The four verses, 4:88-91, when carefully examined, also show that the Qur`anic perspective conflicts with the death penalty for apostasy. The first two verses state:

    Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two groups regarding the hypocrites? God has cast them backward (arkasa) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom God has made to go astray? And he whom God has made to go astray, you will not find for him any way. They wish that you reject faith as they have done, so that you all become the same. So take not protectors/friends from them till they emigrate in the way of God. But if they turn away, seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither protectors/friends from them nor helpers. (4:88-89)

    This passage begins by talking about hypocrites, that is, people who had declared themselves Muslims but in their hearts had decided not to believe in the teachings of Islam. The demand that they should do hijrah fi sabil allah (emigrate for the sake of God) shows that they are not the hypocrites of Madinah but are living among non-Muslims in Makkah and possibly elsewhere. Verse 98 of the same surah shows that these people were not doing hijrah despite the fact that they were able to. The reason for their not doing hijrah was their hypocrisy. Makkan non-believers who had persecuted Muslims for years, would not have tolerated in their midst any true Muslims. They would have accepted among them only those “Muslims” who had stopped taking their “islam” seriously and felt more comfortable among non-believers, hostile to Islam, than among Muslims. These hypocrites pretended to be Muslims because they wanted to be secure from both sides (see 4:91). And Makkan non-believers did not force them to publicly renounce their “islam” because they found them useful for gathering information about Muslims or for some other subversive actions against the ummah.

    In order to defeat these hypocrites in their game and force them to clearly choose between Islam and kufr, God commanded them to do hijrah. Their obedience to this command meant that they had chosen Islam and their disobedience meant that they had chosen kufr. Those who chose kufr in this way became apostates, since previously they called themselves Muslims. Thus the verses are a source of guidance for us regarding the way the apostates are to be treated.

    At first sight the words “seize them and kill them wherever you find them” would suggest that they are to be killed. But this is quickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

    Except those who join a group between you and whom there is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given them power over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guarantees of) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

    You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it. If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, nor restrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. In their case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

    These verses clarify the command “seize them and kill them”. The apostates who rejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided into three categories:

    1)Those who ally themselves with a group with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

    2)Those who want to keep neutrality, committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people who had not accepted Islam;

    3)Those who provide no real guarantee of peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engaged in hostilities towards Islam.

    The first two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is to be treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized and killed wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words “God has opened no way for you against them” in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that the Qur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peaceful terms with the Muslims.

    Thus according to the Qur`an the apostates are to be treated like other kuffar: If they want to live in peace with the Muslims, they are to be left in peace and if they assume a hostile attitude, then they are to be treated accordingly.

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow View Post
    I may be misreading. But to me it seems that the Imam is stating that while the death penalty exists, it can not be carried out as the only ones who could carry it out would be infallible Imams. In other words there is nobody qualified to carry the penalty out.
    Thank you, Woodrow. Being a radio programme, it was all too quick for me to find out who the speaker was, and what evidecne he based his statement on.

    I don't know anything about the infallible imams (I came away with the impression that he meant an actual group of imams - possibly in the past ... but I might have misheard)
    To clarify this I have asked a question about the infallible imams in the Seeking Knowledge section, so I will wait for the thread to be approved there, rather than take the thread off topic here.

    Peace
    Last edited by glo; 04-23-2008 at 07:46 AM. Reason: added last paragraph
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    glocandle ani 1 - Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama View Post
    Some Christians even criticized the pope for publicly baptizing this one ex-Muslim when uk's PM Blair was done in private. They questioned the faith of such an ex-Muslim because when someone converts to another religion (be it Islam or Christianity or what not) they do it out of love for that new religion and not hate for the old one, nor go on a hatred anti-religion rampage like a blind lunatic.
    Do you think converting so publically to another religion could be seen as an act of treason?

    (On a side note about the baptism, I would like to add that the baptism is meant to be a public and open declaration. Not to show off oneself, but for the glory of God - to demonstrate that one has left behind the 'old life' and entered into a new one with God.)

    As for your questions on a personal level. It really depends from family to family and region to region. Those who are more cultural based will take more aggressive approach then those who are more islamic knowledge based.
    What are your personal views?

    As for the speaker. He is an african american convert. he's name is Bilal Phillips. Search him in youtube and you'll see many of his talks uploaded. Look for contemporary issue series to watch similar videos to the one i shared.
    I might just do that. Thank you. I like his measured and calm way of speaking, and his ability to relate to the modern Western world.

    Peace
    Last edited by glo; 04-23-2008 at 07:44 AM.
    Attitudes on apostasy softening?

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    glocandle ani 1 - Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Here I stand.
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    May God help me.
    Amen.

    Come, let us worship and bow down •
    and kneel before the Lord our Maker

    [Psalm 95]

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by glo View Post
    Do you think converting so publically to another religion could be seen as an act of treason?

    (On a side note about the baptism, I would like to add that the baptism is meant to be a public and open declaration. Not to show off oneself, but for the glory of God - to demonstrate that one has left behind the 'old life' and entered into a new one with God.)
    What i meant was that the christian was stating how come the baptizing of blair was done in private and baptizing of this ex-muslim done in public. It goes on to say one has to question the intention and message pope is trying to send to the Muslim world, especially knowing well how much this ex is an anti-islam bigot. The author also questioned the sincerity of this conversion stating whether if he is convert for love of christianity to further hurt Islam with his actions. So basically the anti-islam trash has an agenda of his own and doesn't really care what religion he converts to, he makes his decisions based on how he think he can hurt islam the most.


    What are your personal views?
    I think i already gave those in my first post.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama View Post

    What are your personal views?
    I think i already gave those in my first post.
    You did?
    I must have missed the post ...

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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan View Post
    Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
    I'm sorry to hear that, and how big of you to forgive them. Would you mind if I ask some questions out of curiosity?
    1. I take it you were born in a Muslim family right? So being muslim yourself must have been the most logical thing at first when growing up, but did you at some time truly believe, or were you just a muslim because your enviroment told you to?
    2. If you did believe at some point, what changed in your views that made you apostate?
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan View Post
    Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
    I feel for you.

    I can't relate as I was raised by fairly secular people (though my mother is a christian she didn't push it on my dad or myself or my sister at all), but I have heard similar stories from others in similar situations, mostly from fundamentalist christian backgrounds.

    It amazes and scares me how people can turn on their loved ones for what to me are entirely irrational beliefs, imaginary gods, etc.

    All i can really say is that its probably for the best that you are away from them, so their influence does not effect your own children and continue the cycle of intollerance.
    Last edited by Pygoscelis; 04-24-2008 at 09:30 PM.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan View Post
    Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
    Amazing that you forgive them. A very sad story indeed.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Izyan View Post
    Speaking as an apostate I am completely cut off. The only one i have contact with is my brother and that is vary rare. My mother wept and my father warned me to never come around under threat of violence. It pained me tremendously but as time has passed I have forgiven them.
    Why are you on an Islamic forum? personally if I had extirpated myself from any binding 'imaginary beliefs'- I'd look some place else where I can be fostered with like minds, not walking into their den with my own two ..err fingers

    Is this a form for you to gain approval from Muslims?
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah View Post
    I'm sorry to hear that, and how big of you to forgive them. Would you mind if I ask some questions out of curiosity?
    1. I take it you were born in a Muslim family right? So being muslim yourself must have been the most logical thing at first when growing up, but did you at some time truly believe, or were you just a muslim because your enviroment told you to?
    2. If you did believe at some point, what changed in your views that made you apostate?
    1. I truly believed up until I was a teenager.

    2. At around 17 I became curious and started studying other religions from Christians to Wiccans. The more I read about christianity the more it felt right to me. I went to a church a couple of towns over when I was 22 and I was hooked. That being said I do keep an open mind and embrace evreyones beliefs but govern my life as a christian.
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    Re: Attitudes on apostasy softening?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine View Post
    Why are you on an Islamic forum? personally if I had extirpated myself from any binding 'imaginary beliefs'- I'd look some place else where I can be fostered with like minds, not walking into their den with my own two ..err fingers

    Is this a form for you to gain approval from Muslims?
    cheers
    lol I don't seek anyones approval but Gods nor have I labeled anyone beliefs imaginary. I came here because even though I'm an apostate I still miss the debates I had with people in my family.
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