turkey must take the prize for the most militant secularism in the world.
How dare you not love Atatürk?!
Saturday, June 14, 2008
Love cannot be imposed. If you want all citizens to appreciate Atatürk as The Father of All Turks, then you should make him the symbol of freedom and justice for all
Mustafa AKYOL
The ultra-secular camp in Turkey has just found a new reason to bolster its campaign of fear. Two young ladies wearing the much-hated Islamic headscarf showed up on a TV program, and one of them declared, “I don’t like Atatürk.” The other even said she rather has sympathy for Ayatollah Khomeini, the leader of the Iranian revolution. And hell broke loose.
No, it is not just the secularist media that unleashed its wrath on these ladies, namely Nuray Bezirgan and Kevser Çakır. The prosecutors have also caught on. The other day, an Istanbul prosecutor announced that an investigation has been launched in order to file a case against these university students for violating the “Law on Crimes Against Atatürk.” If they get penalized for this “felony,” then it will mean that the level of our official thought control has been raised from orange to red. Every Turkish citizen will have to love the Eternal Leader in order to avoid jail.
Not suppressed enough?:
I think the more reasonable secularists will tell you that it will be wrong to prosecute Ms. Bezirgan and Ms. Çakır because of their remarks. Yet, they are arguing that such outrageous ideas show the severity of the “Islamic threat” to the Turkish Republic. They also say that the establishment is right in its authoritarian ways to contain religious practice. “You see,” they reason, “what will happen if we don’t sufficiently suppress these religious bigots.”
Well, could the problem rather be that those “religious bigots” have been suppressed too much?
Let’s just get back to the TV show in question to get some insight. It was journalist Fatih Altaylı who hosted Ms. Bezirgan and Ms. Çakır, who are both university students who wear the headscarf (at least outside the campus). At some point in the show, Mr. Altaylı asked them about Khomeini. Ms. Çakır said she “liked” the late Ayatollah because “he was a Muslim.” Yet when Mr. Altaylı asked them about the current regime in Iran, which is obviously suppressive, both students noted that they don’t approve of it.
The real shocking news came a minute later. Mr. Altaylı asked, “So what about Atatürk, do you love him as well?” Ms. Bezirgan responded first by asking, “Do I have the right not to love him?” And she added, “If yes, then I don’t love him.” Then she said why:
“If people are persecuting me in the name of Atatürk, you can’t expect me to love him.”
When, in return, Mr. Altaylı noted, “Atatürk fought against invasion and saved us from the British yoke,” the young lady gave a very interesting reply. “If the British were here, I actually would have much broader rights,” she said. “That’s the whole point.”
And then she further explained what her problem was with the Kemalist system in Turkey:
“A party which will defend my ideas cannot be found in Turkey. It will be banned. Yes, if any party dares to defend my view, it will be closed down… Muslims work day and night in this country in order to get their rights. Then when Parliament gives them a little right, someone comes and takes those freedoms away from us in the name of Atatürk, or the Republic.”
“What I want,” she finally said, “is a system in which I am totally free, in which my rights and freedoms are not suppressed.”
Thus, fellow columnist Yusuf Kanlı was right yesterday to point out that these ladies “want to wear Islamist attire everywhere, including state offices!” In other words, they want full equal citizenship. What a big heresy for our Republic, which openly favors secular citizens over observant ones...
It sure did.. once they have let go of Islam, they have let go of their compulsion to seek knowledge.. for it is one of the pillars they have let go of along like moral decency!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Did the nationalism also caused Turkey's technological,scientifical. cultural and military backwardness in comparission to Europe these times?
Maybe
How come The Ottoman Empire were So Succesful In the Early Days ??
Last edited by Güven; 06-24-2008 at 10:33 PM.
And as for the onewho fears standing in front of His Lord and restrainsthe soul from impure evil desires and lusts, verily, Paradise will be his abode [79:40-41]
It sure did.. once they have let go of Islam, they have let go of their compulsion to seek knowledge.. for it is one of the pillars they have let go of along like moral decency!
cheers
And as for the onewho fears standing in front of His Lord and restrainsthe soul from impure evil desires and lusts, verily, Paradise will be his abode [79:40-41]
It sure did.. once they have let go of Islam, they have let go of their compulsion to seek knowledge.. for it is one of the pillars they have let go of along like moral decency!
cheers
Its ironic because before nationalists came up to power, there was only religious schools in Ottoman Turkey. No enginery schools,no technical schools, no modern military schools.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
Its ironic because before nationalists came up to power, there was only religious schools in Ottoman Turkey. No enginery schools,no technical schools, no modern military schools.
There is no irony at all.. the latter half of the ottomans were a great corrupt individuals, unlike all the empires that preceded, they have left many great states beneath them a complete prey to the brits/french etc including thesmelves.... I don't want to get into a deep history lesson here.. but you need to know that there was a time when even the brilliant peter the great had to retreat to the ottomans, if you know anything about cities he built and his conquests you'd have to concede that he was in over his head with the ottomans...
I can't blame everything on kamal ataturk singularly but he certainly made corruption from within more obvious.. and now we have lost turkey.. but we are to gain it back with two words insha'Allah as per prophecy.. you can say all that is set in motion is very expected..
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
If you think peter the great were weak.. you'll need a brush up course on his own private conquests
cheers
I was rather talking about older times, in XV, XVI century. Balkan countries were a few but small and powerless after Bizantium collapse.
Besides, I know that you will gain it back. At least everything is showing that. This is too strong culture to be so easily replaced or wiped off. I am aware of this.Until Ottoman Empire come again at the borders of my country I dont care about it honestly.
Somewhere I read that faith pushed to catacombs doesnt die but savages(didnt it happen already in USA?Who knows). Thats why secularists loose at the end at last.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
I was rather talking about older times, in XV, XVI century. Balkan countries were a few but small and powerless after Bizantium collapse.
Besides, I know that you will gain it back. At least everything is showing that. This is too strong culture to be so easily replaced or wiped off. I am aware of this.Until Ottoman Empire come again at the borders of my country I dont care about it honestly.
Somewhere I read that faith pushed to catacombs doesnt die but savages(didnt it happen already in USA?Who knows). Thats why secularists loose at the end at last.
Why aren't you Muslim?
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I was rather talking about older times, in XV, XVI century. Balkan countries were a few but small and powerless after Bizantium collapse.
Besides, I know that you will gain it back. At least everything is showing that. This is too strong culture to be so easily replaced or wiped off. I am aware of this.Until Ottoman Empire come again at the borders of my country I dont care about it honestly.
Somewhere I read that faith pushed to catacombs doesnt die but savages(didnt it happen already in USA?Who knows). Thats why secularists loose at the end at last.
And as for the onewho fears standing in front of His Lord and restrainsthe soul from impure evil desires and lusts, verily, Paradise will be his abode [79:40-41]
I beg you pardon?
My professor used to say that he likes being a pigmy. I guess that I also likes this.
P.S When I was talkinbg about you gaining back everything I meant Turkey.
This country is dying because of a lack of men, not a lack of programs.
I beg you pardon?
My professor used to say that he likes being a pigmy. I guess that I also likes this.
P.S When I was talkinbg about you gaining back everything I meant Turkey.
well that is not the only 'everything' that we were promised.... but that is besides...
I ask this not because of anything related to this thread really... most of the Polish people I have met i.e out of 7 three became devout Muslims, they were the hard working and studied of the rest, who just liked the 'american dream' too much though never attained it....
I invite you to become Muslim as I do anyone I find virtuous... not because anything having to do with the topic or conquests or or.. you'd not give up Jesus when you become Muslim, you might even appreciate him a little more than a toy doll at borders book store or walmart..
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I wonder if you are so critical about ACLU in your own country Snakelegs.
i don't understand the question???
i like the ACLU and have been a member.
i would hope that the ACLU would defend women's rights to wear headscarves, if it were here. (better yet that it should never be an issue).
why should the turkish courts try to get rid of the elected government because the gov't wanted to do away with the head scarf ban?
i like secularism of the type we have here, which is really separation of church & state. i don't understand turkey's version, which seems quite militant to me. i wouldn't want secularism forced on me any more than i would want a religion forced on me.
as a side note, toward the end, the ottoman empire was already moving toward secularism (=before ataturk)
btw i don't mean to give the impression that i know a whole bunch about turkey, because i don't.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
I think this is more "anti-islam" than "secularity"
You find the same in many part of the US. People have been living in fear of islam and muslims since 9/11 (and before that for non-americans). Its actually one of the things that brought me to this board, to see if the anti-islam people had legitimate concerns or were just blowing smoke.
lol i think i should make my new youtube video to insult ataturk, become public enemy number 1 in turkey and get youtube closed there. muahahaha.........maybe i will who knows.
Btw Youtube Is already closed There
And as for the onewho fears standing in front of His Lord and restrainsthe soul from impure evil desires and lusts, verily, Paradise will be his abode [79:40-41]
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