Sharia law - do you really want it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker

I believe that in divorce in the UK there is absolute equality to both parties except that the mother is more likely to get custody of children too young to be given the choice. I don't know how Christianity handles it.

I disagree, When I was in England a friend of mine was trying to get a divorce and her two timing husband tried all he could by way of smear campaigns to ruin her reputation as well to get custody of the kids.. I personally thought they were both pathetic but it isn't all roses and peaches as you'd so like us to believe!

I think we're drifting off the point a little - the point being that sharia law restricts the freedoms and rights of women and divorce is an example of how.

Proper shari3a law doesn't restrict the freedom rights of women, compare to inability to be granted divorce whatsoever in the church by being excommunicated amongst other things like the question of whether or not women had souls or were akin to animals, or having to pay alimony to your husband by civil courts if your income is higher than his. Take someone like Britney spears for example.. not only did her bottom feeder of a husband get custody of the kids even though in my eyes they were also both equally pathetic but she had to pay him given that she had more money. Not the case at all in Islam. A woman no matter how rich gets to keep her money and her kids and the man no matter how poor must support them! Do some reading before writing!
and really question at all.. "how long have you been civilized' as a society if at all?

I am not sure where you're going with a third party being present - my understanding (gleaned from IsalmQ&A) is that in sharia law, a Muslim man can divorce his wife simply by telling her she's divorced whereas a wife cannot divorce her husband without his permission or by proving (presumably to the sharia court) that he has failed in his Islamic obligations. That inequality is (IMHO) another example of the restriction on freedoms and rights.

Yes I believe you didn't actually read half of what you quoted, given that from one of your very sources I quoted you the opposite opinion from what you were alleging. try to scroll back and read responses given you and if you'd be so kind as to read what you quote before posting it, that way you'd save yourself and everyone else alot of time

Finally, in the UK (and I believe in every other 'western' country) the divorced couple split the assets equally whereas the Muslim divorced wife gets nothing other than her dowry and whatever else she's acquired. As Islam promotes the idea that the wife's place is in the home raising children and the husbands place is to work it is likely that most Muslim husbands will have accumulated greater wealth than the wife. That I think is unfair to women but I will not argue with those Muslims who think it is fair. I consequently asked the question – will Muslim women living in the west take only what sharia entitles them to when they divorce.

A woman's dowry is what she chooses and could be in the upwards of millions try to compare that to a system that imposes a prenuptial to limit the wife's earnings in case of a divorce, also and see my above analogy on Britney spears and co.

Although I would not agree, I think Muslims could argue that sharia treats men and women fairly on the basis that they believe it is fair I think it would be impossible to argue that it treats men and women as equals.

Again, I think you are unable to distinguish equality and sameness. In Islam men and women are equal, their roles are different


The Condition of Women before Islam

Islam came at a time when women all over the world were being oppressed and exploited. The most any society would accord the woman was to admit that she was part of the human race. They never admitted her dignity or gave her rights and responsibilities equal to those of men. The Greeks considered her to be an object of pleasure and amusement. This view was articulated in the classical texts most unambiguously:
We take prostitutes for pleasure, lovers to care for our daily health, and wives to give us legitimate children. The Romans gave the father and husband the right to sell her to whomever they pleased. The Arabs gave the son the right to inherit the wife of his father (not his own mother) just like he would inherit his father’s wealth and his steed! That is if she were lucky enough not to have been buried alive at birth. This was the case with the rest of the world’s societies at that time, like those of the Persians and the Hindus.
Women remained in this horrible state without protesting or rebelling against it. No one else was to do so either. Nor were there any social or economic developments that would require a betterment of her status.
Then Islam came, proclaiming her rights and her equality with men. It established for her all of her rights to bring her out of the miserable state that she was in and elevate her to the noble status that she deserves.
How did this happen?
Equality Between Men and Women in Islam

Islam establishes the principle of equality between men and women in all aspects of life that they are equal in, because both of them are equally human. It does however distinguishes between them in some areas, taking into consideration the natural differences between them and the special qualities that each of them has.
Equality between men and women in Islam is derived from the following considerations:
Equality in their human origins:

Islam conclusively establishes that all human beings have a common origin. This fact is mentioned in many verses of the Quran:
O Mankind, fear your Lord who created you from a single soul and created from it its mate and brought forth from the two of them many men and women.

O Mankind, verily we created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes so you may know one another. Verily the most honorable of you with Allah are the most righteous.

Equality in their common destiny:

Islam also establishes that all of mankind is going to return to Allah who created them, and everyone – male and female – is going to be recompensed for his or her worldly deeds. They will receive well if they did good and they will be requited with evil if they did evil. Allah says:
And every one of you will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.

A human being will have nothing except for what he does. And his deeds will be seen. Then he will be recompensed fully.

So their Lord accepted of them their supplication and answered them: ‘I will never allow the work of any of you to be lost, male or female. You are from each other.

Whoever works righteousness as a believer, whether male or female, we will truly give a good life and We shall pay them a reward in proportion to the best of what they used to do.

Women's Rights in Islam

We should point out that human rights in Islam are not merely rights but are religious obligations. This means that it is obligatory for every person to protect them and restore them if they are taken away. It is equally obligatory upon society to make sure that every individual can enjoy his or her rights to the fullest.
Islam has secured for the woman every human right. This includes her intellectual, religious, social, economic and political rights.
Intellectual and Religious Rights

Islam has guaranteed every man and woman the right to think and believe as they choose. It considers thinking and investigating to be an obligation upon every human being. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage people to think about and investigate the phenomena both in the world around them and in the wonder of life itself. Allah says:
Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the Earth and all the things that Allah has created?”

Say (O Muhammad): “Behold all that is in the Heavens and the Earth.’ But neither signs nor warners benefit those who do not believe.”

Say: “‘Travel in the land and see how Allah originated Creation.”

Say (O Muhammad): “I exhort you to one thing only: that you stand up for Allah’s sake together and individually and reflect: there is no madness in your companion (Muhammad).”

As for the right to one’s own belief, Islam has guaranteed it and forbidden anyone to compel another to change his or her belief. Allah says:
There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the true path is clearly distinct from error.

So, will you (O Muhammad) then compel mankind so they will become believers?

You (O Muhammad) are merely a warner. You are not a dictator over them.

The Quran threatens those who persecute believing men and women in order to turn them from their faith:

Verily those who persecute the believing men and women and then do not turn to Allah in repentance, they will have the punishment of Hell, and they will have the punishment of the Fire.

From all of these texts, the independent religious identity of the woman becomes quite clear. No one else can impose upon her what she should believe. She must, of her own free will, decide what to believe. Allah says:
O you who believe, if believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah knows best their faith. Then, if you ascertain that they are true believers, do not send them back to the disbelievers.

O Prophet, if believing women come to you to give you their pledge that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, nor steal, nor commit fornication, nor kill their children, nor commit slander, nor forge falsehood (to making illegitimate children belong to their husbands), nor disobey you in goodness, then accept their pledge and ask Allah to forgive them. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

O wives of the Prophet! Whoever of you commits manifest lewdness will have a double punishment. This is easy for Allah. And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and works righteous deeds will be given a double reward.

When Islam came, women accepted Islam and made the emigration to Madinah, even though their fathers, husbands, and the rest of their male relatives remained disbelievers. Umm Habîbah, the daughter of Abû Sufyan, accepted Islam and emigrated in spite of the fact that her father was one of the leaders of the disbelievers. Even when her husband abandoned Islam, she remained steadfast in her belief.
Fatimah, the daughter of al-Khattab, became Muslim before her brother `Umar did and was the cause for him accepting Islam, because of her faith and because she stood up to him when he found out about her becoming a Muslim and wanted to abuse her.
Umm Kulthûm, the daughter of `Uqbah b. Abî Mu`ît, accepted Islam and emigrated in spite of the fact that every member of her family remained polytheists.
There were many women who accepted Islam and were the reasons for their husbands accepting Islam. Umm Sulaym – the wife of Abû Talhah al-Ansarî – and Umm Hakîm bint Huzam – the wife of `Ikrimah b. Abî Jahl – were among these women.
Social and Economic Rights

Not only does Islam recognize her right to think and believe as she likes, it considers her to be an active member of society who can make a valuable contribution. Islam, therefore, secures for her many rights, including the right to an education, the right to own property and to use it at her own discretion, and the right to work.
The right to an education:

In Islam, seeking knowledge is a religious duty upon every man and woman. This is because knowledge is integral to Islamic life. In the light of knowledge, a person’s eyes are opened. This person can then worship the Lord with proper insight and understanding. Allah says:
Read in the name of your Lord who created. Who created the human being from a clot. Read, and your Lord is the Most Generous. Who taught by the pen. Who taught the human being what he knew not.
Knowledge is a gift from Allah to every human being. Consequently, it is a right granted to all. No man or woman may be barred from it. The woman’s right to knowledge is exactly the same as a man’s. She must know the teachings of her religion and may acquire a deep understanding thereof. The verse mentioned above is addressed to all humanity, ordering them to read and to learn. It was the first verse of the Quran to be revealed. It does not differentiate between men and women.
This is what the woman enjoyed since the first days of Islam’s history. Women used to compete with men in attaining knowledge at the mosque and at the houses of Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him). Their strong desire for knowledge made the women ask the Messenger (peace be upon him) to set aside a special day for teaching them, above and beyond the general lessons that were open to women and men alike. Allah’s Messenger did, in fact, set aside a special day to remind them and to teach them.
Due to the care given by the women and the attention to knowledge given by Islam, many great scholars, jurists, writers, and poets appeared among the women during the era of the Companions and the Successors, and during every era of Islamic history.
The right to own and dispose of property:

This is established by the Quran in many of its verses. Allah says:
Men have a share of what they earn and women have a share of what they earn.

Men have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, and women have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, whether the estate be small or large – a legal share.

And give to the women their dowries with a good heart; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it without fear.

There is consensus among the scholars of Islam that all economic activities of a woman, like buying, selling, leasing, giving gifts, and giving collateral, are legally valid and that she has a completely independent economic existence.
The right to work:

In Islam, a woman can practice any occupation that she chooses, as long as that occupation is lawfully permitted for men and women to engage in. There is no restriction placed upon her in this. From the dawn of Islam, women engaged in many occupations such as commerce, agriculture, and manufacturing.
A woman came to Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) and said to him: “I am a woman who engages in buying and selling.” She then asked him for the legal rulings pertaining to some of the commercial transactions that she used to engage in.
Another woman came to him complaining that one of the men forbade her from working on her farm. Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “Go work your date palms; for perhaps you might give some charity or do acts of righteousness.”
The right to inheritance:

When Islam established inheritance for the woman, it was the first time in history that women were able to enjoy this right. The Quran establishes for her this right in a number of its texts. Allah says:
Men have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, and women have a share of what their parents and relatives leave behind, whether the estate be small or large – a legal share.

Allah commands you regarding your children’s (inheritance): to the male a portion equal to that of two females; if there are only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is half. For parents, a sixth share for each if the deceased left children. If there are no children and they are the only heirs, the mother has a third…
You have half of what your wives leave if they have no children, but if they leave a child, then you receive a fourth of that which they leave after payment of legacies that they may have bequeathed or debts. They have a fourth of what you leave behind if you leave no child, but if you leave a child, they receive an eighth of that which you leave after payment of legacies that you may have bequeathed or debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question has left no other heirs, but has left a brother or a sister, each one (if no more than two) gets a sixth, but if they are more than two, they share in a third.
If a man dies leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance. If the deceased is a woman who left no child, then her brother inherits from her. If they are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance…
The right to marry:

Islam establishes for the woman the right to have a choice as to whom she will share her life with. Allah says:
And do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands if they mutually agree on a reasonable basis.
When have fulfilled their term (of waiting after the death of their husbands), there is no sin on you if they if they dispose of themselves in a reasonable manner.
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: “A previously married woman has more rights over herself, and a virgin must have her permission sought.”
There are cases where Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) annulled the marriages of women who were married against their will.
Political Rights

In spite of the newness of this terminology, we find, if we review the Islamic texts and look back on the experience of the early Muslim societies, that Islam has established for the woman rights that can be labeled political rights. Among these are the following:
The right to give consultation:

There are many verses in the Quran that establish the principle that Muslim affairs, in general, are to be based on mutual consultation. It is the business of the Muslims to exchange opinions and consult each other on these matters. Allah says:
And consult them in the affairs.
And their affairs are by mutual consultation.
These general texts pertain equally to both men and women.
We find that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) would consult his wives on issues of general import. For example, he consulted with Umm Salamah on the occasion where he had ordered his Companions to shave their heads and come out of their pilgrim state at Hudaybiyah. They did not do so, because they hated turning away from Mecca without making pilgrimage to it. She advised him to shave his own head and sacrifice, so he did so and all the others hurried to follow suit. He then praised her and commended her for her keen intellect.
We find that the group of people led by `Abd al-Rahman b. `Awf who were active in selecting `Uthman as Caliph was comprised of both men and women, whereby “they came to the ladies in their private rooms to seek their consultation with regards to selecting `Uthman.” This is what we find in the historical source works. It indicates to us that even those women who remained concealed in their dwellings were consulted on the matter.
Emigration and giving allegiance:

Muslim women emigrated to Abyssinia and to Madinah. This emigration was equivalent to what we refer to today as seeking political asylum.
This was a time when the Muslims were being oppressed in Mecca and were forbidden from expressing their views and calling to their faith. They emigrated, seeking a place where they would be afforded the opportunity to practice their rites and express their beliefs. The first place the Muslims chose to go to was Abyssinia, because at that time it was ruled by a king who never oppressed anyone in his domain.
Muslim women emigrated during this time, sometimes unaccompanied, like Umm Kulthûm bint `Uqbah b. Abî Mu`ît and Umm Salamah (may Allah be pleased with them both) did during the women’s emigration. This is mentioned in the Quran:
O you who believe, if believing women come to you as emigrants, test them.

As for the oath of allegiance, it is a political and religious pact between the Muslims and Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that is an expression of their faith in the Messenger and their political affiliation with his cause. The following verse talks about the oath of allegiance given by women:
O Prophet, if believing women come to you to give you their pledge that they will not associate anything in worship with Allah, nor steal, nor commit fornication, nor kill their children, nor commit slander, nor forge falsehood (to make illegitimate children belong to their husbands), nor disobey you in goodness, then accept their pledge and ask Allah to forgive them. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
This list includes a clause of political significance: “nor disobey you in goodness...”
Enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong:

The Quran has established the role of the believing women in enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong. Allah says:
The believers, men and women, are protectors of one another; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong.

This duty, just as it includes the responsibility to rectify social ills, also has political dimensions that manifest themselves in giving advice and admonition to those holding political power.
As for military combat, Islam has not made it obligatory upon the woman, but it is permissible for her to participate in the war effort, usually as a noncombatant with duties like getting water to the fighters and tending to the wounded. In spite of this, in some battles, women saw combat. Umm Sulaym al-Ansariyyah defended Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) during the battle of Uhud and was wounded about ten times.


http://www.ediscoverislam.com/About-...ights-in-islam

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')

ummmm. how is that different from my stating that a woman's hippocampus (A complex neural structure (shaped like a sea horse) consisting of grey matter and located on the floor of each lateral ventricle; intimately involved in motivation and emotion as part of the limbic system; has a central role in the formation of memories) is bigger than a man's while a man's frontal cortex is bigger? do you take what I write, google it and come back with an aha? what is your point? I have already stated as much plus maintained the excutive decision memory center is different from that of the emotive one found in the limbic system...

what you qualify is otherwise incosequential to me, I find you to be a minute google scholar and have proven as much with every other post starting with your hilarious first one on sickle cell trait!

Do you want to tickle me or just enjoy the public disgrace?

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

The work shows that women are better then men at remembering events and linguistic constructs, both of which make them more suitable as witnesses to a contract.

You keep stating and re-stating something I have already covered posts ago, to re-quote my self:

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer Skye

male and female minds work differently.. you should read

it is written by a female doctor.. after reading it, you'll see that in fact women have a bigger hippocampus than men where as men have a bigger frontal brain. I'll argue that women have a better memory than men, but men are better at executive decisions.

So basically you have taken what I have written then added your own conclusion which you are not qualified to make under any circumstance either theological or a scientific as I have so maintained the memories of the executive decision making frontal brain differ from those of the hippocampus!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

Why do you consider being a witness to a contract to be a decision making event?

Because there are numbers involved in contracts and men are better at math even if the better is of small percentage!

- The difference in average quantitative abilities of boys and girls is very small, but "what sets boys apart is that many more of them are mathematically gifted."

http://www.portfolio.com/views/blogs...-and-engineers

further studies show that

More women suffer from Alzheimer’s disease than men, and it’s not just because they live longer. They also have a much greater risk than men for contracting type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, and other diseases caused by a defective metabolic and immune system. Premenopausal women recover from stroke sooner and with less disability than men of the same age or postmenopausal women.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/...fferences.html

all the best!

format_quote Originally Posted by Azy

The mere presence of numbers does not make it a decision making situation for the witnesses.

That is not for you to decide given you don't know the chronological list of related debits of any contract!

By your logic is it not just as valid to say that because the specific wording of the contract to determine it's intent is as important as the numbers used to describe the contracted quantities, the witnesses would ideally consist of 1 man (to recall the numbers) and 1 woman (to recall the words)?

See above reply and use your wit only where it will be slightly amusing, I'd go for those who share your plane and passion for mediocrity!

all the best

Men normally don't get pregnant:

Study: Pregnant Women More Forgetful

If you're pregnant and you've been a little forgetful lately, here's why:

A study conducted by Australian scientists has confirmed what many mothers have suspected: Carrying a baby can make you more forgetful.

Research has found that a woman's memory can be impaired for at least a year after giving birth, although the effects are minor and mainly concern unfamiliar or demanding tasks.

"The memory deficits many women experience during and after pregnancy are pretty much like the modest deficits you'd find when comparing healthy 20-year-olds with healthy 60-year-olds," researcher Julie Henry said.

The Australian study analysed the results of 14 different studies from around the world which tested the memory performances of more than 1,000 pregnant women, mothers and non-pregnant women.

It found that pregnant women performed significantly worse on some, but not all aspects of the test.

The hardest tests for the pregnant women were those which involved new or difficult tasks.

"Regular, well-practiced memory tasks - such as remembering phone numbers of friends and family members - are unlikely to be affected," said the Australian Catholic University's Associate Professor Peter Rendell, who conducted the study with Henry.

"It's a different story, though, when you have to remember new phone numbers, people's names or hold in mind several different pieces of information, such as when multi-tasking."

This study was published in the Journal of Clinical and Experimental Neuropsychology.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...nt_memory.html

format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

You are terribly inconsistent.
First it was ulterior motives, then decion making and now maths.

'ulterior motives is my own feelings on the matter' if you'll scroll you'll see I have included "I personally wouldn't want women as witness for or against me" and included my reasons.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

if I were being tried by Shari3a law, I WOULDN'T WANT WOMEN AT ALL as witness for or against me, It might sound sexist against my own kind.. but it really takes alot for a female to be purely objective and non- emotive.. the fact that it is two at all is actually sort of consoling..

What is in the Quran or of divine origin differs from my opinion. opinions don't count in Jurisprudence but on an individual level!

other than that any inconsistency you feel is perhaps a reading and comprehension impediment on your part everything I have written flows, even the epiphany that seems to have struck your pal one page ago, I had introduced quite a few pages back!


all the best

^^^ who said? I believe I have quoted you quite a large article where the testimony of one woman expert in her field is enough period!

I have no idea what you are driving at? I couldn't have been more clear..

all the best