I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
I think it is important to understand what Sharia Law is rather than just assume that the law practiced by certain individuals, who call it by that name, makes it the sharia law.
There are various regimes around the world which practice different laws and if it happens to have a fragment of Islam in it, suddenly it becomes sharia law.
However Sharia law is not unfair to anyone, since under it the following are guaranteed:
- Protection for the masses, including minorities
- Protection from criminals under penal law, i.e. murderers, rapists, thieves, etc
- Social welfare through the Zakah system to help people without support/jobs
- Medical care for all citizens, life is valued above all things in Islam
- Freedom of speech, as long as not used to offend others
- Freedom of religion, apostasy does not hold the death sentence as popularly believed
- Education for both men and women
- Protection against child abuse, spousal abuse and abuse of other kinds including verbal
- Freedom of choice, in terms of marriage and religion as well.
And these are only some of the things which Islam laid the laws for over 1500 years ago.
If you were to study the Islamic empire which existed for over a 1000 year, surely you will come across all of these elements. These are the rights as given by Islam to the people of the Earth. (I have only mentioned some)
So if you see any regime in the world doing weird things in the name of Islam, please know that it is not from Islam itself, but rather it is from their own minds and they are just labeling it falsely.
Just my 2 cents, hope it helps someone who may come to read it.
Salaam,
Evn i ws finfing no sisers have commentd on dis topic...bt i dnt fink its cuz dey don’t no wat dey r entitld 2, i personally didn’t comment cuz i feel all da questions askd wer vri well answrd by da muslim brothers..especially by aamirsaab...
Women get less inheritance..because she an keep it for herself,she is nt obliged 2 provide for da family, the male of the family provide, dats y male gt mo...so women r beta of der!
If women choose 2 wok..which dey r allowd...she keeps her salary,if she wishes 2 pay for household expenses den she cn..she duznt have 2 if she don’t want 2...so women r beta of again!
as far as i no at a tym of divorce women keep al dat belongs 2 dem and i belive she duz gt maintenance.....not dat bad eh..?
" And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al-Mutaqeen'
You like to make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Perhaps what is more likely, is that the number of males who are active in the World Affairs section outnumber the females?
What real Muslim, male or female, would not want to live under true Sharee'ah? This statement of yours seems to suggest that 'educated female Muslim[s]' would rather live under man-made democratic laws than under the Laws of Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala. The very fact that these women are Muslim, would necessitate that they believe the Laws of Allaah are perfect and are far superior to any other Law. Islaam itself means to yield to Allaah with submission, and to submit to Him with Tawheed (Islaamic monotheism). And from Tawheed is to believe that Allaah's Laws are superior to any other Law, and He alone has the right to rule.
So YES, as an 'educated female Muslim', I would love to live in a society that is being governed by the Laws of Allaah, and would prefer anything closer to that than Western Democracy.
Alhumdulillah, the Sister gave the most precise answer!
I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
under the Shariah, the woman's closest male relative would be REQUIRED to support her, thus making all of your concerns moot.
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
Really? Well you believe wrong. i'm muslim, i'm female, i'm living in 21centuary and i'm educated- enough to realize that The Almighty's Divine Law stands forever.
He created us, know what is best for us and sent the last Prophet (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam) with His law, and did not change it, therefore it still stands.
Sura 2, verse 282. It's a long verse so I haven't pasted it here.
What about this?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
First off, I was being hypothetical in relation to if women are truly not allowed as head of state. Secondly, I said Modern day western countries (by this I meant uk and us...).
Hmmmm
Wouldn't that be preventing women from doing something tho? I.e they'd be forced to sacrifice that aspect in order to lead?
what's wrong with that?
Perhaps but they were just my opinions on the matter anyway - not the Islamic perspective.
As you can see from the previous hadith, women having a defficient mind does seem to be the Islamic perspective...
Sex changes (seriously, why?!), Because several people feel they are trapped in their own bodies and no therapy has helpd them alcohol abuse, ok, but thats not a serious problem and you could say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, abortion, How? I though Islam allows abortion. Anyway, countries like the Netherlands, Sweden, ones which you don't seem to consider modern western countries, have very low abortion rates.divorce rates, How? knife crime, gang wars, general breakdown of social norms - all simply because it's ''my right!''Knife crimes and gang crimes are illegal and are not a product of liberal politics, more to do with immigration. Mainly to do with ethics but they all have an impact on society because they are NOT practical. Not every single thing is impractical but generally those that differ between the two systems tend not be practical
It's your view they're not practical, I think they are. You seem to believe Islam is entirely practical, I think differently.
The verse about witnesses doesn't at all show that women have lower intelligence or memory than men. because in the verse God doesn't say that the man is there to remind the women if they forget/make a mistake; one woman will remind the other. if the belief was that women's intelligence is lower, it would've said that the man was there to remind the women. (everybody forgets. additionally, one woman would provide support for the other.)
The verse about witnesses doesn't at all show that women have lower intelligence or memory than men. because in the verse God doesn't say that the man is there to remind the women if they forget/make a mistake; one woman will remind the other. if the belief was that women's intelligence is lower, it would've said that the man was there to remind the women. (everybody forgets. additionally, one woman would provide support for the other.)
Why are men extempt from the same requirement? Like you said, everyone forgets, men to, so why does a man not require a man to remember him?
There are 53 posts in this thread from male members and 1 post from a female member, what does that tell us? Is it likely that female members are frightened to speak out against an aspect of Islam that they would prefer to ignore in the hope that it won't come there way?
I still haven't had an answer to my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
im a female and dont have a slightest problem with any aspect of the shariah. i may have problems with people twisting texts to suit their needs- which happens on both sides btw but as for what is authentic islamic shariah- it is the only totally fair and just rule to both men and women.
Alhumdulillah
Our Lord! Verily, we have heard the call of one calling to Faith: 'Believe in your Lord,' and we have believed.
Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and expiate from us our evil deeds, and make us die (in the state of righteousness) along with Al-Abrar
What about this?
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind."
Not going to get into hadiths - that's a whole different ball game.
...
what's wrong with that?
Either way you look at it, her position gets compromised. If she accepts leader role, you say she cannot have a child during that term. If she wants a child (or is pregnant), she cannot run for head of state (due to fact she'd be off duty for a year!) So she gets limited each way (in contrast, the male doesn't get compromised to such an extent). Again tho, this isn't the islamic perspective on the matter - just my opinion.
..Because several people feel they are trapped in their own bodies and no therapy has helpd them alcohol abuse, ok, but thats not a serious problem and you could say the advantages outweigh the disadvantages...
As I said, it was mainly to do with ethics and the break down of social norms. If a social norm encourages suicide and hedonistic life styles, I don't see how that can be championed in light of a 1400 year old system that encourages the opposite (and is therefore BETTER for society on the whole).
It's your view they're not practical, I think they are. You seem to believe Islam is entirely practical, I think differently.
Then it is a stalemate in terms of matter of opinion - which is fine since we're being hypothetical about the whole thing anyhow (no point in losing hair over the matter!) and our view points are ultimately meaningless. Unless one of you lot want me to run for president
I still believe sharia has modern western law beat overall though since the emphasis is on society rather than the individual (note; this isn't because of some blind loyalty shenanigans though, rather I agree with the overall goal set by sharia: keep society running through basic and just principles). But at the end of the day: c'est la vie.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Either way you look at it, her position gets compromised. If she accepts leader role, you say she cannot have a child during that term. If she wants a child (or is pregnant), she cannot run for head of state (due to fact she'd be off duty for a year!) So she gets limited each way (in contrast, the male doesn't get compromised to such an extent). Again tho, this isn't the islamic perspective on the matter - just my opinion.
And not being allowed to run for president is not a limitation?
You limit someone so they wouldn't get limited?
[QUOTE]
As I said, it was mainly to do with ethics and the break down of social norms. If a social norm encourages suicide and hedonistic life styles, I don't see how that can be championed in light of a 1400 year old system that encourages the opposite (and is therefore BETTER for society on the whole).
Then it is a stalemate in terms of matter of opinion - which is fine since we're being hypothetical about the whole thing anyhow (no point in losing hair over the matter!) and our view points are ultimately meaningless. Unless one of you lot want me to run for president
I don't knwo I think you very much appreciate our society's position on individual rights, you're a Muslim
I still believe sharia has modern western law beat overall though since the emphasis is on society rather than the individual (note; this isn't because of some blind loyalty shenanigans though, rather I agree with the overall goal set by sharia: keep society running through basic and just principles). But at the end of the day: c'est la vie.
I thinky ou very much appreciate the western emphasis on the individual, though ou may not know it, but after all, it is that very emphasis on the individual that lets you build mosques where ever you want, preach your faith to the rest of the population, live your life openly as Muslim and whatever nationality you belong to, which would be impossible for a non Muslim in an Islamic state.
I'm just not so much into the idea of discriminating some in order to keep the society running smoothly. With that said, the western society is running quite smoothly with its indivivual rigths and all that crap.
You like to make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Perhaps what is more likely, is that the number of males who are active in the World Affairs section outnumber the females?
What real Muslim, male or female, would not want to live under true Sharee'ah? This statement of yours seems to suggest that 'educated female Muslim[s]' would rather live under man-made democratic laws than under the Laws of Allaah Subhaanahu wa Ta'aala. The very fact that these women are Muslim, would necessitate that they believe the Laws of Allaah are perfect and are far superior to any other Law. Islaam itself means to yield to Allaah with submission, and to submit to Him with Tawheed (Islaamic monotheism). And from Tawheed is to believe that Allaah's Laws are superior to any other Law, and He alone has the right to rule.
So YES, as an 'educated female Muslim', I would love to live in a society that is being governed by the Laws of Allaah, and would prefer anything closer to that than Western Democracy.
Thank you for your reply.
Can I know which country you are living in?
Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
Salaam,
Evn i ws finfing no sisers have commentd on dis topic...bt i dnt fink its cuz dey don’t no wat dey r entitld 2, i personally didn’t comment cuz i feel all da questions askd wer vri well answrd by da muslim brothers..especially by aamirsaab...
Women get less inheritance..because she an keep it for herself,she is nt obliged 2 provide for da family, the male of the family provide, dats y male gt mo...so women r beta of der!
If women choose 2 wok..which dey r allowd...she keeps her salary,if she wishes 2 pay for household expenses den she cn..she duznt have 2 if she don’t want 2...so women r beta of again!
as far as i no at a tym of divorce women keep al dat belongs 2 dem and i belive she duz gt maintenance.....not dat bad eh..?
" And for divorced women, maintenance (should be provided) on reasonable (scale). This is a duty on Al-Mutaqeen'
Thank you for trying to answer my question but, sorry, I can’t understand what you’re saying.
Could you answer my question on what sharia says about how the assets/wealth/salary/pension is divided on divorce; my wife knows exactly what she's entitled to, do the sisters here not know what they're are entitled to if they divorce?
This has been explained thouroughly , women do get less, but are not expected to pay bills.
Of course, this is still dixtriminatory, not only to women but to men as well.
Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 03-23-2009 at 05:35 PM.
However Sharia law is not unfair to anyone, since under it the following are guaranteed:
- Protection for the masses, including minorities
- Protection from criminals under penal law, i.e. murderers, rapists, thieves, etc
- Social welfare through the Zakah system to help people without support/jobs
- Medical care for all citizens, life is valued above all things in Islam
- Freedom of speech, as long as not used to offend others - Freedom of religion, apostasy does not hold the death sentence as popularly believed
- Education for both men and women
- Protection against child abuse, spousal abuse and abuse of other kinds including verbal
- Freedom of choice, in terms of marriage and religion as well.
I agree with your post, but I'm not sure about the apostasy part which I highlighted. As far as I am aware, the death penalty applies to those who had faked a conversion to Islam in order to undermine the Muslim community from within and also to those who leave Islam in order to support opposing forces against the Islamic state (aka treason). This was explained by Ansar Al-'Adl in this thread.
"I spent thirty years learning manners, and I spent twenty years learning knowledge."
...
Of course, this is still dixtriminatory, not only to women but to men as well.
Which has also been explained. The difference between the UK/US and sharia law is this:
* one completely ignores gender roles
* one doesn't.
Islam recognises that there are differences between men and women. Historically, pscyhologically and sociologically men are considered to be the more dominant (in terms of responsibility at least) of the sexes. Sharia doesn't aim for equality as such but it does aim for justice through EQUITY. That's what critics don't understand about sharia: equity not equality.
For simplicity, take heed of the following analogy:
A snickers bar is different to a mars - but they're both classified as chocolate bars; the only real difference is one has nuts, the other doesn't.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
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