Israel must withdraw from Arab Lands

format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle

GossamerSkye:-

Now Now theres a good boy. Not sure what you mean about the jewish tribes in Arabia - the history of their demise is all in the Quran, Sira and ahadith. I'm surprised you are not familiar wih the history of the Arabian Jewish tribes in the age of the Prophet.

AnteKarateKid :-

You have very obviously never read anything about Islamic history - have you read the Quran in a language you understand, - because this is all well documented history both by muslim and other religious\d historians. Do you not know of the Banu Qurayzah (Medinian Jewish tribe) when Mohammed had 6-700 Jews beheaded in the market place. Perhaps it is time you stuck your nose in a book - I would suggest Ibn Ishaq's/ Ibn Hishams Sirat Rasual Allah, written two centuries after the Prophets death. Translated by Guillame.

I cannot believe that you did not realise that Jewish tribes resided all over the Arabian peninsula in the time of Mohammed

Tinkles if you didn't spend so much time dumping manure everywhere and actually read some history books, then perhaps you'd not be in a blunder on every threads.

I like that you speak of historians now we are talking.
Show me where the historians got their info about banu quryzah.. as you can probably use the one brain cell in your mind, that is if it isn't held by a spirochete and know there couldn't have been any jewish historians in Arabia if the Muslims had wiped them out? thus no record.. if a record at all of them, it would have been through the Muslims, and obviousely the muslim account of the events differs from your desired rendition.

Must you leave micturate on every thread only to abandon it after realizing that you are a dunce?

I am at a loss as to why they insist on keeping you here?

fact is the punishment of the Jews is the one that they chose for themselves as mandated in their books...browse through the OT some!

format_quote Originally Posted by Periwinkle

GossamerSkye:-

Such dignified replies - however it is not in my nature to respond in kind. Especially when you believe muslims ruled Palestine for 1500 years. How can someone reply to a statement which shows such ignorance. Even a pre-schooler knows that Islam has not even been in existence for that length of time and that it lost its rule during the Crusades and the Mameluke eras.

P.S. As I asked AntiKarateKid, have you ever actually read your source history in English as from some of your comments I doubt very much you have.

Yes again, there is what you believe, and there is what is recorded in history.. hmmmm another difficult decision which to choose? going by your record here alone, I rather think the choice is obvious.

Let's explore some myths and realities on Israel.. by the way the author is an Arab christian... ( should leave one with the clear impression) that the actual semites of the region whether Muslims or a christian minority don't accept or recognize the colonial settler Zionist cockroach state or its inhabitants as having any blood relations to the original Hebrews who became christian then Muslim) they are in fact descendants of Khazars.. It isn't even a political term, search science books on (ashkanazi) Jews) converts during the 7th century!

Myths and Realities about Israel

Myth No. 1: About UN Partition Resolution
The UN voted in 1947 to create the State of Israel in the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean. Israel accepted the compromise while the Arabs rejected it.

REALITY: The 1947 UN resolution is a General Assembly resolution, not a Security Council resolution. The UN General Assembly can only make recommendations. Recommendations have no obligatory character. Member states are free to accept or reject them.
Israel’s apologists are quick to say that Israel accepted this compromise. The Partition Plan granted 52% of Palestine to the Jews who were 30% of the population and owned no more than 6% of the land. This is a net gain on the part of Israel, not a compromise.
Israel’s apologists are quick to claim that the Arabs started the 1948 war. Ben-Gurion himself in Rebirth and Destiny of Israel wrote: “Until the British left, no Jewish settlement, however remote, was entered or seized by the Arabs, while the Haganah, under severe and frequent attack, captured many Arab positions and liberated Tiberias and Haifa, Jaffa and Safad” (p. 530). Israel’s military activity started well before any attack by the Arab armies.
Israel’s apologists are quick to accuse Jordan of occupying and annexing what is now called the West Bank. While not a single Arab soldier entered the area allotted to Israel in the UN resolution, Israel occupied and annexed areas in excess of what was allotted to it in the UN Partition Plan. These areas include, among other areas, the Arab cities of Nazareth, Jaffa, Acre, Lydda and Ramleh. Thus Israel expanded from 52% to 78%.
Moreover, according to the UN Partition Plan, 49% of the population of the Jewish state was supposed to be Arabs. Through a war of ethnic cleansing this percentage was reduced to 12%. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was the result of a deliberate master plan, code named Plan Dalet.
In light of all the above, it is ludicrous to pretend that Israel accepted UN General Assembly Resolution 181 of 29 November 1947.



Myth No. 2: About Annexation
The military occupation of Palestinian territories has never been converted by Israel into an annexation.

REALITY: Immediately after the 1967 war, the Israeli government issued an order declaring that an area comprising the Old City of Jerusalem and some adjacent territory should be subject to the law, jurisdiction and administration of Israel. Thus Israel expanded municipal East Jerusalem from 6 km2 to 73 km2 of the West Bank. Furthermore, Jewish colonization of East Jerusalem went beyond the extended municipal boundaries to include what Israel calls Greater and Metropolitan Jerusalem comprising 330 km2 and 665 km2, respectively.
The Annexation of the Old City of Jerusalem was carried out under the Law and Administration Ordinance (Amendment No. 11 of June 27, 1967). Not only did Israel annex East Jerusalem but it also feverishly worked toward the judaization of its population by expropriating Arab land to build Jewish settlements.
As for the rest of the occupied territories, the real reason for not annexing them is the racist nature of the Zionist state. The only way for Israel to annex the occupied territories is by cleansing them of their indigenous inhabitants, following the pattern of 1948 (see Myth No. 1 above).
Furthermore, on December 14, 1981, Israel officialy annexed the Golan Heights. The legislation, extending Israeli law to the area of the Golan Heights was adopted by the Knesset by a majority of 63 against 21.



Myth No. 3: Jordan attacked first
Israel in 1967 notified Jordan that it wished to maintain non-belligerent policy between the two states and that Jordan nevertheless attacked Israel.

REALITY: “The pretence that Israel would not attack Jordan is belied by the secret decision adopted by the Israeli cabinet on June 4, 1967 (which was made public on June 4, 1972) to attack Egypt, Syria and Jordan on the following day” (Henry Cattan, Jerusalem, p.69).
Also, Israel was well aware that Jordan signed on May 30, 1967 a defense pact with Egypt, allowing Egyptians to take command of the Jordanian army.



Myth No. 4: Recognizing and making peace with Israel
When Egypt recognized and made peace with Israel in 1979 the entire Sinai was returned to Egypt.

REALITY: The purpose of such a statement is to give the impression that Israel is willing to withdraw from the land it occupied in exchange for peace. The return of the entire Sinai would be a proof of that. In this context, the name of Anwar Sadat is mentioned.
Jimmy Carter’s memoirs: Keeping the Faith: Memoirs of a President shatters this impression. Menachem Begin did not want to withdraw from the entire Sinai. For Israel to come to it senses, it necessitated the pressures that only an American President could have applied.
For Israel’s apologists to say that when the Palestinian Authority agreed to recognize and negotiate with Israel, Israel began to “transfer control of West Bank lands” is further evidence that Israel’s goal is not to achieve with the Palestinians a peace resembling the peace with Egypt, (the withdrawal from the entire occupied territories, similar to its withdrawal from the entire Sinai), but to establish another form of occupation.
Israel's defenders claim that by mid-2000 more than 90% of the Arab population of the West Bank and more than 25% of its land were under complete Palestinian control. This only demonstrates what Israel is really after: an indigenous authority controlling its indigenous population, while Israel continues to build Jewish settlements in the remaining 75% of Palestinian land. The result of such policy is the establishment of numerous disconnected Palestinian enclaves (bantustans) in a sea of settlements rendering the free movement of the Palestinians difficult, if not impossible.



Myth No. 5: Barak’s “unprecedented offer”
Israel made an “unprecedented offer” consisting of giving back 95% of the West Bank and all of Gaza. Jerusalem itself would be partitioned into Israeli and Palestinians sectors.

REALITY: The Jerusalem that is being referred to here is just the Old City of Jerusalem, not the entire East and West Jerusalems. Not only will Israel keep West Jerusalem but it also wants to partition East Jerusalem. The Palestinians, by the way, accepted to give Israel sovereignty over the Jewish holy places, something that the Israelis refused to give to the Palestinians. They rather talked about “religious sovereignty” over Haram al-Sahrif, and “autonomy” over the Christians and Muslims quarters.
The 95% of the West Bank referred to is in fact 95% minus the expanded municipal boundaries of Jerusalem, that Israel has already annexed (see Myth No. 2 above), which makes Barak’s offer more like 85% of all the West Bank.
Furthermore, the so-called Palestinian state that would have been created according to the “unprecedented offer” would have control neither over its natural resources nor over it air space (For more details see: Camp David mythology)



Myth No. 6: Israel never target civilians
Israel does not deliberately target civilians.

REALITY: How else can we qualify dropping a 2,000 pound bomb on an apartment building in a civilian neighborhood supposedly to kill one “terrorist leader”?
Also, a Jan. 3, 2003 editorial in The Washington Post had this to say: “Israeli paramilitary forces have reportedly been operating something they call ‘the lottery,’ in which they detain Palestinians and order them to choose from pieces of paper labeled with punishments such as ‘broken leg’ and ‘smashed head.’ The practice was reported by an Israeli newspaper on Dec. 22, more than a week before Amran Abu Hamediye was beaten to death.” This is what a self-censorship press revealed. What is not being reported must be even worse.



Myth No. 7: The “only democracy”
Israel is the “only democracy” in the Middle East.

REALITY: How many times have Israel’s apologists repeated this slogan? In fact, Israel is not a democracy by Western standards. Not a single Western democracy occupies another people’s land, rules another people and subjects them to all kinds of humiliations, torture and mistreatment. Israel indeed is a democracy, but a democracy by Zionist standards, just as South Africa, under the White minority rule, was a democracy by apartheid standards. It is true that Palestinians with Israeli citizenship have the right to vote in Israel. So are all the citizens of the Arab countries. This however doesn’t make them democracies. In Israel, there is no equality between Jews and non-Jews. In a Jewish state, Jews are more equal than non-Jews. It has always been that way and unless Israel becomes the country of all its citizens, it will lack the characteristics of a Western democracy.

In a lecture I have given in 1995, I alluded to a very important point that deserves to be dealt with in depth. The following is a quotation from that lecture:

I am a Christian Arab. Not all the Jews are my cousins and neither are all the Christians nor all the Muslims. My cousins are the Hebrews, the Jews who live or used to live in the Arab countries. Arabs and Hebrews are both Semitic people and both words are made up of the same Semitic three-letter root (`rb & `br ). The Jews of Europe, the Ashkenazi, are Jews but not Hebrews (Ashkenaz is the medieval Hebrew name for Germany). Nor are they Semites in the first place, a fact that points to a misuse of another term, that of anti-Semitism. As a matter of fact, the Ashkenazi Jews have no historic link to Palestine. They descend from the Khazars, a Tatar people of Turkish origin who converted to Judaism at the time of Charlemagne in the 8th century. Their homeland is located in south-eastern Russia between the Caspian and the Black seas (see map).

What I was alluding to is almost a taboo subject that very few people know about. It is the subject of the Jewish Khazars, the ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews. I wrote two Letters to the Editor (letters 94 and 100) about the origin of the Ashkenazi Jews and their relationship to the Khazars. I was not surprised when the Editor chose not to print them. This issue, however, is not unknown to scholars, particularly to Medieval historians. But the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of the educated people, and even the history teachers in high schools have never heard of the Khazars. One of the first scholars who started to be interested in Khazar history is the orientalist Paul Eric Kahle, who was born in 1875 in East Prussia and died in 1965 in Bonn. He published The Cairo Geniza in London, Oxford University Press, 1947. His student, D. M. Dunlop, wrote The History of the Jewish Khazars, published by Princeton University Press in 1954 (pb 1967). It is considered to be an invaluable source for Khazar history. Another historian from Cambridge University, J. B. Bury, devoted a chapter on the Khazars in his book A History of the Eastern Roman Empire, published in London in 1912.

Books, Bookreviews, Articles...
1. The best way to start learning about the Khazars and their history is to read an excerpt on the subject taken from Alfred Lilienthal's book What Price Israel? (see excerpt, also in Arabic translation)
2. Another interesting article is the one written by Dr. Fayez Sayegh, a Palestinian Christian, who put the issue of the Khazars in a religious context. By refuting the Jews' divine and historic rights to Palestine, Zionism's claim becomes baseless (see article). Dr. Sayegh quotes extensively from a study by Professor Alfred Guillaume who exclusively deals with the religious aspect of the promise God made to Abraham (see study).
3. "Scholars Debate Origins of Yiddish and Migration of Jews" (New York Times of October 29, 1996) is one of those rare instances where the issue of the Khazars is treatead in the mainstream media. But notice how misleading the title is. Not only does the word Khazar not appear in the title, but it is mentioned only once in this long article and toward the end (see article). This issue of the Origin of the Yiddish Language was taken up in a three-part series by Philologos in the Jewish weekly Forward: Vocal Minority (Nov 22, 1996), The Case of Ladino (Nov. 29, 1996), and Redrawing the Yiddish Map (Dec.6, 1996).
4. The book that popularized the Khazars is the one written by Arthur Koestler, The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and its Heritage, Random House, 1976. After tracing the history of this ancient empire, the author concludes that "The mainstream of Jewish migrations did not flow from the Mediterranean across France and Germany to the east and then back again. The stream moved in a consistently westerly direction, from the Caucasus through the Ukraine into Poland and thence into Central Europe. When that unprecedented mass settlement in Poland came into being, there were simply not enough Jews around in the west to account for it, while in the east a whole nation was on the move to new frontiers" (page 180). See the review of the book written by Grace Halsell.
5. The Ashkenazi Jews: A Slavic and Turkish People in Search of a Jewish Identity, by Paul Wexler, Professor of Linguistics, Tel Aviv University, 1993. In this book, Paul Wexler suggests that the great bulk of Yiddish-speaking Eastern-European Jewry have no genetic relations to the Jews of the Middle East and southern Europe and descends from Slavic (and to a lesser extent Turkish) proselytes who converted to Judaism. His argumentation is based on a linguisitc approach. He contends that, in East-European Yiddish, a number of basic Jewish ritual practices are referred to by originally Slavic words. His conclusion is that "The evidence provided by Jewish languages strongly suggests that there is little basis for the claims that the contemporary Jews of Europe, Africa, and Asia, as well as their religious practices and folklores, are 'evolved forms' of the Palestinian Jews and their culture of two millennia ago. On the contrary, contemporary Jews, like their religion and folk culture, appear to be overwhelmingly of non-Jewish origin." Philologos wrote a four-part series commenting on the book in the Jewish weekly Forward : Wexler's Bombshells - Part 1 (June 4, 1993), Wexler's Conversions - Part 2 (June 11, 1993), Wexler's Conversions - Part 3 (June 18, 1993) and Wexler's Conversions - Part 4 (June 25, 1993).
6. The Jews of Khazaria, by Kevin Alan Brook, 1999. This volume traces the development of the Khazars from their early beginnings as a tribe to the decline and fall of their kingdom. It also examines the many migrations of the Khazar people into Hungary, Ukraine, and other areas of Europe. The Jews of Khazaria draws upon the latest archival, linguistic, and archaeological discoveries (see The Khazaria Info Center).
Internet Sites
The Khazaria Info Center: http://www.khazaria.com
The Khazar Heritage: http://home6.swipnet.se/~w-66679/khazaria/index.html
Book of Ruth Proves Khazars are Legitimate Jews: http://www.advweb.com/kw/misc/misc/kw_khazar.html
Frequently Asked Questions and Answers on Soc.Culture.Jewish Section 13. Jews as a Nation
http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq...faq/13-04.html
Khazar Information: http://www.daft.com/~scotto/melody/dotk.html
Khazaria Historic Maps: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/3976/




For the rest of the items on this website, click here

http://www.mideastwatch.com/

format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid

And history says nothing to you? Things were fine before Israel was created. Go back to the way it was.

Obviously it does. I don't think destroying Israel is good for anyone, sorry that I don't support it? I feel so awful cause I don't support driving them into the water.

If they want to leave, let them, if not, then I guess the Arab countries can fight them till one wins. Either way I am not going to be on either side unless the US Army, decides to intervene, and I don't really care which side then, cause then I am going to be focused on living, not on helping one side win over the other.

Honestly, either way, it doesn't matter, the only way this is ever going to be settled is when one side or the other finally says "mercy" and quits. I don't really care which, cause I don't know anyone in any of them that I care about a lot, if they both want to slaughter each other, then I'd advise the neutrals to move, and let them decimate each other.

format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77

Who said anything about 'destroying Israel'? Are you deliberately tryin to pis us off?

haha Nope. If I was, you'd be pissed already sir.

Well, what exactly do you think should happen to Israel if its not going to be destroyed? Evict those that want to spread it? I mean, I do not see why they should stop cause a country threatens them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Clover

Well, what exactly do you think should happen to Israel if its not going to be destroyed? Evict those that want to spread it? I mean, I do not see why they should stop cause a country threatens them.

How is Israel going to be destroyed exactly? What threatens them?

actually if you know a bit about Abrahamic faiths in general, they are to be gathered there fro all corners of the earth for a promise to be fulfilled. The righteous Jews will follow the true religion, the rest will go with their awaited messiah and it will be the end of them.. Read chapter 17 in the Quran:

[Pickthal 17:4] And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.

[Pickthal 17:5] So when the time for the first of the two came, We roused against you slaves of Ours of great might who ravaged (your) country, and it was a threat performed. (this has already happened) In Jeremiah 52: 4 to 27 the annihilation of the Jews alongwith their king Zedekiah and his sons and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian Nebuchadrezzar in 586 B.C. is mentioned in detail. The Babylonians penetrated through their lands, their temple, and their homes, and carried away the Jews, men and women, into captivity.

[Pickthal 17:6] Then we gave you once again your turn against them, and We aided you with wealth and children and made you more in soldiery.

[Pickthal 17:104] And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.


so in fact, it isn't a big surprise, and as many Muslims and Arabs as they are displacing and kill and maim and annihilate send into refugee camp whatever is left, while excavating beneath al Aqsa to build their alleged third temple, it will in fact backfire on them as such is the promise of God, who has fulfilled three quarters of the prophecy thus far!

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow

How is Israel going to be destroyed exactly? What threatens them?

"In 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea. "


"On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel."

That is 2 fights they have been in, and I don't know for sure if they started it or not, but that is not really meaning anything when they are attacked by multiple nations.

Honestly, I am not going to say they are in the right or wrong, but to say no one threatens them really sounds more like a joke.

format_quote Originally Posted by Clover

"In 1967, Egypt, Syria, and Jordan massed troops close to Israeli borders, expelled UN peacekeepers and blocked Israel's access to the Red Sea. "


"On October 6, 1973, Yom Kippur, the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Egyptian and Syrian armies launched a surprise attack against Israel."

That is 2 fights they have been in, and I don't know for sure if they started it or not, but that is not really meaning anything when they are attacked by multiple nations.

Honestly, I am not going to say they are in the right or wrong, but to say no one threatens them really sounds more like a joke.

Can I have the source of this please? Thanx :P

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow

Can I have the source of this please? Thanx :P

lol take a guess, it's the easiest source of crappy information on the Internet! I really want to leave it there so you can guess, but crap that'd be spam. Wiki. I can't wait for you to get sources too, I prefer looking them up, but I am going to go eat lunch, bbl.

Myth and realities about Israel is addressed on previous page by Dr. Medhat creedi whom as I already stated is an arab christian.
can people who have never been to israel to see first hand account be equated to those who have? I have had two civilian friends killed there, if I am to ignore all else, one should at least believe first hand eye witness.

I don't recognize the colonial settler state of Israel, and don't care to be politically correct about it. Their existence seems contingent on the annihilation of the aborigines, and in such a case the choice is clear as to where our liege and loyalties should be!

format_quote Originally Posted by Clover

lol take a guess, it's the easiest source of crappy information on the Internet! I really want to leave it there so you can guess, but crap that'd be spam. Wiki. I can't wait for you to get sources too, I prefer looking them up, but I am going to go eat lunch, bbl.

Hahaha I guess I should have realised it was wiki. Wikipedia is not that bad, it can give good infor and it does state its sources.

format_quote Originally Posted by Guestfellow

Hahaha I guess I should have realised it was wiki. Wikipedia is not that bad, it can give good infor and it does state its sources.

I don't trust it a lot. Especially when it comes to religions.

Maybe the Jews there want to live under Jewish Rule.

Obviously it does. I don't think destroying Israel is good for anyone, sorry that I don't support it? I feel so awful cause I don't support driving them into the water.

You know, this makes me really angry. Where the hell did I say that they should be driven into the water? What a load of rubbish. Dismantle the state and share the land as they did together before. Give the homes back tot heir original owners and build new houses for the immigrant Zionists.

If they want to leave, let them, if not, then I guess the Arab countries can fight them till one wins. Either way I am not going to be on either side unless the US Army, decides to intervene, and I don't really care which side then, cause then I am going to be focused on living, not on helping one side win over the other.

Of course! Who really wants to fight for justice as long as the army gives you a hot meal and a bed right?

Honestly, either way, it doesn't matter, the only way this is ever going to be settled is when one side or the other finally says "mercy" and quits. I don't really care which, cause I don't know anyone in any of them that I care about a lot, if they both want to slaughter each other, then I'd advise the neutrals to move, and let them decimate each other.

Decimate each other? Last I checked they were fine until the state was created and now people just want their homes back. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't give a **** about justice.

If God forbid, someone invades your house and kicks you and your family out, possibly killing your child, I sincerely hope that you don't encounter another person like yourself who'd rather stay back and watch you struggle helplessly.