Women who wear the burka in public will be fined £700 under laws being considered in France.
MPs will vote on the proposal this month after a long impassioned debate over the merits of outlawing the burka and niqab.
Jean-François Copé, parliamentary leader of President Nicolas Sarkozy's UMP group, said the 750 euro fine would apply to anyone whose face is "fully covered in public".
Wearing either would be tolerated only in exceptional circumstances, such as "cultural events or carnivals," he added.
The bill proposes introducing an even heavier penalty for anyone who forces a woman to wear the full veil, Mr Copé said in an interview with the Le Figaro magazine.
The burka is a full-body covering with a mesh screen over the eyes while the niqab is a full-body veil with eye slits.
Mr Copé insists the law is based on public safety and sexual equality considerations and does not restrict religious practices.
"We spoke to religious and secular figures who all confirmed [the burka] was not a religious prescription. Wearing the full body veil is about extremists who want to test the republic," he said.
President Sarkozy last year declared the burka a "sign of subservience and debasement that imprison women" and said it was "not welcome on French soil".
But he is said to be undecided as to whether to back the law or a non-binding "resolution" that would make wearing the garments contrary to French values but not a punishable offence.
Mr Copé has left both options on the table by drawing up a resolution regarding women's rights and a law on security in tandem.
The burka discussion has intensified amid a heated debate on French identity organised by Mr Sarkozy's immigration minister, Eric Besson. The debate has focused heavily on immigration and Islam in a country with five million Muslims.
Fadela Amara, the urban affairs minister, a women's rights activist and a Muslim, recently labelled the burka a "walking coffin".
Michelle Alliot-Marie, the justice minister, said last week that Muslim men seeking French citizenship and whose wives wore the garment were not welcome. She said they would "not appear to be sharing the values of our country." The opposition Socialists this week came out against a law banning the burka – even though they remain firmly opposed to the garment.
"The burka is a prison for women and has no place in the French Republic. But an ad hoc law would not have the anticipated effect," said their spokesman, Benoît Hamon.
Jean-Marie Le Pen, the veteran leader of the far-Right National Front, said a ban was unnecessary as it is already "forbidden to walk the streets and public spaces with a mask on".
Interior ministry figures suggest that around 2,000 women in France wear full Muslim dress in public.
France passed a law in 2004 banning students and staff from wearing "conspicuous" religious symbols in schools – including veils – to defend secularism.
In September a French mother was banned from wearing a full-body "burkini" bathing suit at her local swimming pool. She was told it contravened hygiene regulations but pledged to take her local council to court, saying the decision was political.
In July, al-Qaeda leaders in north African issued a call to arms against France on an Islamic extremist website.
"We will seek dreadful revenge on France by all means at our disposal, for the honour of our daughters and sisters," they warned.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
Perhaps when muslim countries start giving non-muslim's right in their countries, they will get the same in return, or even appear reasonable asking for them?
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
format_quote Originally Posted by Scents of Jannah
Perhaps when muslim countries start giving non-muslim's right in their countries, they will get the same in return, or even appear reasonable asking for them?
What an apologetic tone? Non-Muslim countries are supposed to give equal rights to all of its citizens. These Muslims are its citizens. France follows a secular law and by virtue of that no citizen has to be discriminated.
In Muslim countries, a discrimination must be maintained between Muslims and dhimmis. Not a moral one but a physical one. A dhimmi or a kaafir cannot be a general in Muslim army in a Muslim country for example. You want to revoke laws such as these which you of course find discriminatory?
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Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
format_quote Originally Posted by Uthman
Mr Copé insists the law is based on public safety and sexual equality considerations and does not restrict religious practices.
"We spoke to religious and secular figures who all confirmed [the burka] was not a religious prescription. Wearing the full body veil is about extremists who want to test the republic," he said.
I don't care, and neither should anyone else for that matter what French secular and religius figures consider the burkha to be. (Not that something being religious ought to exclude it from public law). The government, or figures within should not decide what something is and whether it should be used.
Also what is he talking about "testing the republic?" this sounds like shades of some totalitarian dystopia. How does one 'test the republic'? By showing how free they ought to be in choice of clothing? Why does also he think trying to fine them for it will actually convince them of their errors and not enflame them?
Disgraceful.
France passed a law in 2004 banning students and staff from wearing "conspicuous" religious symbols in schools – including veils – to defend secularism.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
format_quote Originally Posted by Wa7abiScientist
What an apologetic tone? Non-Muslim countries are supposed to give equal rights to all of its citizens. These Muslims are its citizens. France follows a secular law and by virtue of that no citizen has to be discriminated. In Muslim countries, a discrimination must be maintained between Muslims and dhimmis. Not a moral one but a physical one. A dhimmi or a kaafir cannot be a general in Muslim army in a Muslim country for example. You want to revoke laws such as these which you of course find discriminatory?
Is their law set in stone? We cannot force them to abide by their own laws. And they aren't. Perhaps you think we should just protest and make a big hoo-haa about it. Perhaps you're even right. But shouldn't we as muslims take a long hard look at ourselves and be the kind of people who seem justified in asking for those rights? And probably even attaining them because we are considered worthy of them? So far we, the Ummah as a whole have done nothing to strengthen ties with non muslims of the lands we reside in. We have taken and given nothing back.
Is there any service set up by muslim that benefits muslims and the natives in non muslim lands. Please excuse my ignorance if there is, but in the decades of living in a non muslim land I've not heard of one. In the recent years when UK suffered severed flooding, what did muslims in UK to do help? Nothing because the areas flooded were predominantly non muslim. There have been and are many problems which muslims and non muslim face socially as a society, yet there is never a service/solution initiated by muslims living here. I’d rather not get into the damage caused by muslims living in non muslim lands.
Allah did not prohibit us from being kind to non muslims who are neither fighting us or driving us from our homes. Nor are we prohibited from spending a part of our wealth on them. Yet have we? Society has many needs. But muslims have segregated themselves and done the opposite to what Islam required of us. We mustn’t forget that all non muslim are potential muslims, and it is by strengthening social ties as part of a community that we can give non muslims a real insight into what Islam is all about. Our purpose is to invite people to Islam, not push them away. But if we only take, take and take from anyone and we will never prosper.
I didn’t in any way suggest non muslims be granted permission to participate in Islamic affairs. What I was saying is that non muslims don't even have basic rights in Pakistan muslim ruled country. Did Islam prohibited non muslims from practicing their religion inside their own home in muslim lands? In theory they are allowed, yet some Christians in Arab have even been jailed for doing just that.
But back to Pakistan. The only jobs most Christians can get are working as maids/servants in muslim households. The worst of which I have witnessed with my own eyes, was the Christian woman who used to go door to door in a muslim area with an industrial sized empty old (ghee) container tied on her back so that she could scoop **** from the old-fashioned toilets which did not flush and remove it from the houses. I don't recall Islam encouraging muslims to treat non muslim in their lands like this.
If we are suffering as an Ummah it is because of our own failings. We should not expect any good unless we strive to do good; not only for muslims but for the people whose lands we live in.
The prophet (saw) supported the pagan Makkan Hilf ul Fudul because it was created to establish fairness and justice in commercial dealings. His support for it was such that he would mention the event to the companions in the future.
We can shout all we want about ‘our rights’. But let’s not forget Islam the very religion we follow has given rights to all human beings regardless of their beliefs. We have to give and take. That is what the meaning behind my previous post was.
Allah gives us what we earn.
“For Allah will never change the grace which He has bestowed on a people until they change what is in themselves: and verily Allah is He Who hears and knows (all things).” [Sûrah al-Anfâl: 53]
Let’s not only look at the injustices done to muslims, but also at what muslims are doing by their own hands. So I do feel apologetic for muslims not being the nation Allah and His Messenger (Pbuh) commanded us to be and thus depriving them from seeing true beauty of Islam.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
What about wearing masks??? it seems so unfair.
That's exactly how it should be looked at becasue thats exactly what it is. Anywhere you can wear a mask you should be allowed to wear one of these. That said, there ARE public safety reasons why people are not allowed to wear masks everywhere and they should apply to this too.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
hmmm they go on about freedom of speech, what about freedom of clothing? I think freedom of clothing and being able to wear what you want is just as important as freedom as speech. hypo's.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
i just want to say that there's other modest clothing out there other then burkas and they said nothing about the hijab so far. its seems that i am hearing different fatwas all the time what is expected of a muslimah for example that its not compulsory to cover the face and that you can expose your face and your hands.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
so many muslims have said muslims who wear the niqaab are extreme muslims and i hate hearing this i dont want to be labelled an extreme muslim i dont want people to be afraid of me. when a person is not being called extreme then they say that your trying to dress like an arab by wearing black. i am hearing this crap from the mouths of muslims and not from non muslims. they verbally attacked my friend once for wearing the niqaab and the gloves also.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
Even though I think the Burka is utterly ridiculous, I see this new proposal as equally ridiculous. It's an irrational response to a rational concern, and even though France clearly isn't very happy about giving equal rights to Muslims- they've made this perfectly clear in the past- I do think this is an extreme measure. Muslims are 8% of France, surely the French government must acknowledge some Muslims may try and fight this?
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
If French politicians thinks to "liberate" muslim sisters by this they are wrong. Those whose can´t pay it will stay at home - what is opposite of idelialism of European feminists whose want all women out of they homes.
From Occupied Palestine:
We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
we should start fining western women who arent properly covered up in the Muslim world. if their in skirts, shorts, arms out, fine them.
According to me there is no such thing as the 'Muslim world' or a 'Muslim Country'. All these so called Muslim countries are just puppets of Europe and America. They would never implement such a law as it would mean that this would ruin their relations with these western countries. It doesn't matter to them how the west is reacting to Islam and treating their Muslim brothers and sisters.
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
I don't see what the big deal is about wearing a niqaab/burkah in public. If a sister wants to wear it and she is wearing it for Allah, then she should be free to do so without wearing about if she is going to have to pay.. Adhubillah.
I do understand some concerns though as far as banking. I know of banks where it is required for your face not to be covered (in any way even ski masks) when making a transaction. That is for the individuals protection so that they can be identified. Of course a sister wearing niqaab or burkah could avoid this by having a joint account with husband or another family member and just send them to do the transactions.
"And hold fast unto Allah, He is your protector, the best to protect and the best to help"
Re: Women who wear burkas in France face £700 fine
In secular society people acting on their religions should not be given special treatment or mistreatment. If you do X, it shouldn't matter why you did it, it should be treated the same as others doing X. Not better and not worse. There's no excuse for banning muslims from covering their faces for religious reasons if others can cover their faces for other reasons.
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it seems so unfair.
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