NYC bus ads asking 'Leaving Islam?' cause a stir

format_quote Originally Posted by espada

What do you think of this story?

Are these bus ads offensive or a non-issue? I personally think it's in bad taste but no worse, i guess then many of the other things that are happening (cartoons). But still, it just seems like things like this would be better off not done because, IMO, if forces people to have to think about something they may be better not having to think about. More divisions and all in the name of this "free speech".

It's like free speech is becoming an idol of appeasement or something. People are almost waging their own "holy" wars - in the name of free speech.

I kinda laughed when I read the part: "...if forces people to have to think about something they may be better not having to think about," just wondering, how can it be good not to think about something ? Thinking is good.
And I wouldn't say that these kind of things are done in the name of free speech, they're done for various different reasons, freedom of speech just protects such actions.

Mash'Allah the ayahs you have quoted befits this situation perfectly; sub7anAllah, really the Qu'ran is perfected.

As for the buses, I do find it offending, for the simple reason that it indirectly sends the message that Islam is something one must "escape" from, as though we are threatened into it, and all Muslims are obliged to follow it . Absolutely ridiculous. Islam is perfect; it's the followers which are imperfect, which is only natural because we all make mistakes. Some actions committed by its followers are derived from culture and have nothing to do with religion, but then these negative aspects are associated with Islam. Anyway I won't go further into it since this point as been discussed numerous time here and many examples have already been given. I'd encourage Muslims to learn about their religion before thinking of "leaving"..and insh'Allah they'd see it is the most beautiful way of life, truly.

As for Pamela Geller, I checked out her blog real quick and read what she wrote about the flotillas being attacked; that was enough to prove to me that her claim of having "nothing against Muslims" would be more credible if she had said it as a joke.

AinEstonia - at the surface my statement seems odd but i stand by it. If you are programmed to think a certain negative way, then how is it beneficial? Maybe it causes/inspires someone to seek the truth (whatever it may be), and look at things from an angle they wouldn't normally. Allah knows best.

And as far as freedom of speech. Here in the U.S. people, people are rabid about it. Freedom of speech should not give a license to offend. And what about some hadith on the tongue?:

1511. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (PBUH) said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day must either speak good or remain silent.''
[Muslim].


1514. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard the Prophet (PBUH) saying, "A person utters a word thoughtlessly (i.e., without thinking about its being good or not) and, as a result of this, he will fall down into the fire of Hell deeper than the distance between the east and the west.''
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].


There are other examples.


Muslim Woman, sorry i wanted to remove the link but i can't get into to edit my own posts.


houda~, i agree.

I'd support it if it was done out of genuine concern for those leaving the really radical sects, that may actually face family turning their backs on them or threats of violence from their community etc, but I don't think this lady has these peoples' best interests at heart. She strikes me like somebody with a whole other nefarious plot she wishes to thrust these people into. "Save" them from one unfortunate situation just to pull them into something worse, or just as bad.

BTW - they are going to build a mosque near ground zero? lol Not hard to see how that one will go over.

format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**

I wouldn't call them offensive, but it's disgusting to see such anti-Islamic on public buses. Moreover, their dumb help is totally unneeded al-hamdulillah.

"Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse." [9:32]


You'd support putting such ads on public buses? About the threats of violence, a thing called police can handle that much better than a single obnoxious anti-Islamic organization.

WEIRD there isn't any help available for other religion's followers Christians/Hindus!...

It is because those who choose to leave Christianity, Hinduism etc are less likely to be killed then someone who chooses to leave Islam. In fact, you are executed in some countries for converting to other religions by the state.

I don’t agree with this ad, because I don’t see what it going to achieve? And this nut job does not have best interest at heart. This ad would cause more trouble and hatred towards Muslim community as it reinforces the belief that Muslims community are extreme and would hurt other people.

format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**

WEIRD there isn't any help available for other religion's followers Christians/Hindus!...

Yes there is. I have seen such groups for recovering mormons, recovering scientologists, recovering jehova's witnesses, and recovering fundamentalist christians. All of these people have faced hostility when leaving their former faiths, from family members turning them to losing their jobs to threats of violence (and actual violence sometimes too). They also have to face the stigma of formerly being associated with these radical groups which can in itself be hard. Plus they still often carry the baggage from their former belief systems, which can often be a problem for them in itself.

And yes if this add was done with the interests of those recovering at heart, I gladly would support it. These people need all the help they can get.

Along the Indian road

INDIA: GUJARAT AND ORISSA PREFIGURE INDIAN CRISIS

A violent anti-Christian Hindu pogrom erupted in Orissa (northeast India) on 23 August that has claimed dozens of lives, including that of a 20-year-old nun burned to death in an orphanage. Numerous others have been injured, many seriously, including another young nun who was pack raped. Casualties are mounting daily in the wake of ethnic-religious cleansing.


Compass Direct (CD) reports (1 Sept): "While many parts of Orissa remained under curfew today, over 13,000 people were reportedly living in relief centers set up by the state government in seven places in Kandhamal." Dr. Abraham Mathai, vice chairman of the Maharashtra State Minorities Commission told reporters, "More than 50,000 Christians are living as refugees following the violence in Orissa. All the political parties are sitting as mute spectators."



In Kandhamal district alone, around 1,000 Christian houses, hundreds of churches and numerous Christian institutions and businesses have been demolished by rampaging Hindus.
While this anti-Christian violence is shocking, it is not surprising. Hindutva (Hindu nationalist) elements acting with legal impunity and state government support have for decades been stoking the flames of hatred, cultivating an incendiary environment in Orissa. Now Orissa, like Gujarat, is primed for genocide. And hot on the heels of Gujarat and Orissa are numerous other Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-ruled states.

GUJARAT AND ORISSA PREFIGURE INDIAN CRISIS

Thousands of Hindus then rioted crying, "Stop Christianity. Kill Christians!" Across Kandhamal district alone, more than 700 Christian homes and around 100 churches and 95 Christian institutions were vandalised, looted, destroyed and torched. Leading the incitement was the state's principal Hindutva ideologue and proselytiser, Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati. After falsely claiming to have been wounded in a violent attack by a vicious Christian mob, he told his followers via a mobile phone message (in the presence of police and journalists) to burn Christian homes and churches and repeat the kranti (revolution) that brought "shanti" (peace) to Gujarat (i.e. the 2002 Hindu pogrom in which some 2000 Muslims were brutally massacred).

STRATEGY OF SANGH PARAVAR

In her sworn affidavit, Dr Angana Chatterji comments likewise on the strategy and methodology of the Sangh Parivar, noting that instead of pursuing its earlier strategy of conversions by means of forced re-conversion ceremonies, "The Sangh Parivar has instead increased its emphasis on the Hinduisation of Adivasis [indigenous tribals, traditionally animists] by making them a part of Hindu rituals and ceremonies (as during the Sammelan), which, in effect, 'converts' Adivasis into Hinduism by assuming that they are Hindu. Such 'conversion' tactics are diffused and no longer have to negotiate certain legalities, which public and stated conversion ceremonies did. On converting/'reconverting' to Hinduism, Adivasis are expected to join Hindu caste society as Sudras, a 'higher' placement than Dalits in the caste hierarchy, Sangh activists say.
"Dalit Christians are doubly discriminated against, as Dalits and as Christians. Post-Hinduisation, Adivasis are being mobilised against Christian groups. Adivasis are incited into targeting Dalit Christians, both fomenting Adivasi-Dalit divides and vitiating the historical solidarities between them. This is crucial to Hinduisation. It also acts to warn non-Christian Dalits against conversion to Christianity.

PLIGHT OF CHRISTIANS IN INDIA

he riots are meant to teach a lesson to the Christians who have abandoned Hindu religion to convert to Christianity. The state's legislature has even passed an anti-Christian bill to stop Hindus to change their religions. Instead of killing Christians, the Hindus should ask themselves: 'Why are the downtrodden people in India, particularly those in Orissa, converting to Christianity?' The answer is that it is because of the ill treatment by high-caste Hindus who do no even allow them to offer prayer in Hindu temples. According to religious tables in India's Census Report, 24 million Christians constitute 2.3 percent of India's total population of 1,028 million. The Christian population includes 14 million Christian Dalits. Dalits are Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist members of "untouchable" castes who convert to Christianity. The untouchable Christians are the most neglected community in India.
India is, constitutionally, a secular country. There are iron-clad guarantees in the Constitution for religious freedom. Yet, not only the born Christians but also Hindus who become Christians complain of persecution. It is not only Orissa, but also several other Indian states that have passed anti-conversion bills forbidding Hindus to convert to other religions. Such legislation violates the UN Charter of Human Rights which gives a person right to change his or her religion.

Totally relevant. Tell me a “Christian country” or another other countries that are not Islamic, that have a LAW to kill those that leave their religion. If so compare that to Muslims countries that have actual LAW that says those that leave Islam should be killed.

According to the belief some Muslims have to kill those that leave Islam. Christians and Hindis may disown their child, wife/husband, brother/sister etc but they would go as far as some Muslim to kill/hurt them. This goes back to the main point, Muslims most likely to kill or hurt those that leave because they see nothing wrong with it since their own countries carry out such laws. Of course this does not mean “many or most” Muslims would kill/hurt them but some would. Muslims are more likely to kill/hurt their relative for leaving their religion then someone who is Hindu or Christian.

I would like to stress I did say some Muslims not all before someone jumps on my throat.

sweet106 - i think you should read my prior post. Or better yet i'll re-post the relevant info:

In Kandhamal district alone, around 1,000 Christian houses, hundreds of churches and numerous Christian institutions and businesses have been demolished by rampaging Hindus.
While this anti-Christian violence is shocking, it is not surprising. Hindutva (Hindu nationalist) elements acting with legal impunity and state government support have for decades been stoking the flames of hatred, cultivating an incendiary environment in Orissa. Now Orissa, like Gujarat, is primed for genocide. And hot on the heels of Gujarat and Orissa are numerous other Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-ruled states. GUJARAT AND ORISSA PREFIGURE

Thousands of Hindus then rioted crying, "Stop Christianity. Kill Christians!" Across Kandhamal district alone, more than 700 Christian homes and around 100 churches and 95 Christian institutions were vandalised, looted, destroyed and torched. Leading the incitement was the state's principal Hindutva ideologue and proselytiser, Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati. After falsely claiming to have been wounded in a violent attack by a vicious Christian mob, he told his followers via a mobile phone message (in the presence of police and journalists) to burn Christian homes and churches and repeat the kranti (revolution) that brought "shanti" (peace) to Gujarat (i.e. the 2002 Hindu pogrom in which some 2000 Muslims were brutally massacred).




In her sworn affidavit, Dr Angana Chatterji comments likewise on the strategy and methodology of the Sangh Parivar, noting that instead of pursuing its earlier strategy of conversions by means of forced re-conversion ceremonies, "The Sangh Parivar has instead increased its emphasis on the Hinduisation of Adivasis [indigenous tribals, traditionally animists] by making them a part of Hindu rituals and ceremonies (as during the Sammelan), which, in effect, 'converts' Adivasis into Hinduism by assuming that they are Hindu. Such 'conversion' tactics are diffused and no longer have to negotiate certain legalities, which public and stated conversion ceremonies did. On converting/'reconverting' to Hinduism, Adivasis are expected to join Hindu caste society as Sudras, a 'higher' placement than Dalits in the caste hierarchy, Sangh activists say.




The riots are meant to teach a lesson to the Christians who have abandoned Hindu religion to convert to Christianity. The state's legislature has even passed an anti-Christian bill to stop Hindus to change their religions.

Yet, not only the born Christians but also Hindus who become Christians complain of persecution. It is not only Orissa, but also several other Indian states that have passed anti-conversion bills forbidding Hindus to convert to other religions. Such legislation violates the UN Charter of Human Rights which gives a person right to change his or her religion.




And in Asia, Christians are using somewhat devious conversion methods - Link:

All Batak are forced to be concentrated in camps, to go to church and to send their children to religious or state schools. There they are taught that the traditional life in the forest, as their parents and all their ancestors lived, has to be seen as bad, uncivilized and underdeveloped. Only a core group of traditional Batak still resists this terror.

Since last year, all the Batak have been under heavy terror from several aggressive missionaries. The adult male Batak and Tabauas (who live in association with the Batak) received a tattoo on their upper arms to show that they belong to a certain Christian sect. The tattoo bearers do not even know the meaning of these registrations on their skin.

Asa and her friends from Emmanuel Gospel Fellowship in Huai Krai of Chiangrai Province are also involved in splitting many villages and paying for conversions of vulnerable villages in order to create community tension and break up.
...
The goal of this organization is to remove as many children as possible, build up a large mission compound to generate more and more backers and more and more wealth. Oversite of the children to prevent sexual abuse is non existent. Sexual abuse of Akha children in these compounds is rife. There is no tracking of where these children go afterwards or what happens to them. The current location of the compound, in a sandy spot in a low area, is also a complete forced change for these children used to mountain views and time with their families.





Satan and his armies are busy world wide. That is the enemy that must be stopped.

While mankind continues to fight each other for their pleasure.