The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:
format_quote Originally Posted by Argamemnon
That depends on your definition of modernization of course. Islam has the ability to adapt to all ages and changes because it's the truth revealed by Allah. If modernization means changing the fundamentals of Islam (to please others or for whatever reason), then no. If modernization means correcting wrong beliefs and traditions, which were actually never part of Islam in the first place, but added later (which most Muslims are unaware of), then yes. But that's a seperate topic altogether.
</p>
What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?
Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.
One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.
Islam is perfect. However, you and I are not. So Islam has to be explained and interpreted for us. Just because you and I are not perfect has absolutely no bearing on the perfection of Islam. As a very rough analogy, just because, say, nuclear physics, is incomprehensible, perhaps, to you does not prove that nuclear physics is just a bunch of baloney.
That’s the kind of explanation I would expect someone to give to a child to fob them off. God knows what man is capable of understanding and everything else there is to know. It cannot be beyond the powers of God to deliver a message that is unequivocal and unambiguous. To say that the Qur’an is perfect as God’s message to mankind on how they should live their lives but mankind isn’t capable of understanding is ridiculous. If I were God, knowing all the confusion that would follow, I would have delivered a simpler set of instructions – something like the 10 commandments.
And, nuclear physics is not incomprehensible it is perfectly clear study of a phenomina. Also - see answer on Maths above
Maths, like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems. Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned. If I was your maths teacher and used confusing and contradictory language in teaching you maths it is likely that you would not understand and I would be described as a bad teacher. The Qur’an is a message, it is supposed to be the teacher telling us what we should do / how we should do it (if you like telling us how to solve the problem). The Qur’an isn’t supposed to be the problem it is supposed to be the solution. If you can’t understand the solution because it is so ambiguous it needs explaining it is not a good solution and consequenty the person delivering that solution could be described as bad teacher.
Islam; " like many things, is a tool or methodology used to solve problems.""Any methodology or skill needs to be explained / taught and learned."
The Quran is a methodology, which solves problems in different times and contexts, it needs to be taught by those who are qualified and understand it well, so that the laypeople can learn it and implement it.
The truth never needs modernising; so as a Catholic I can understand the Muslim position of we don't need modernising but the world needs to accept the truth and change. Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.
Really? Do you mean to say that there is no such thing as a person failing a course in nuclear physics? Perhaps you think that would be the fault of a bad nuclear physics teacher? If so, how would a bad nuclear physics teacher make nuclear physics itself bad or ambiguous or confusing?
As a very rough analogy, the law states that you are to drive on the left side or the right side of the road, as the case might be. Just because someone insists that the wrong side is the right side (and creates a lot of nasty accidents in the process) does not make the law wrong.
Good question. I, too, am seeking the answer to that. I try to find out by living Islam according to the Quran and the Ahadith, as closely as I can. So far so good. I am fully convinced that Islam is the right way to live. Islam must be practiced in toto. We cannot pick and choose to practice only the parts which we like.
As an example, there are people who practice polygamy and justify their action by quoting a Quranic verse.
Surah 4 Verse 3, translates roughly as:
And if you fear that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice (between them), then (marry) only one or what your right hands possess; this is more proper, that you may not deviate from the right course.
What they conveniently overlooked is that at the end of the very verse they quoted, Allah says that if one is unable to be fair to all the wives, it is better to marry only one.
Good question. I, too, am seeking the answer to that. I try to find out by living Islam according to the Quran and the Ahadith, as closely as I can. Islam must be practiced in toto. We cannot pick and choose to practice only the parts which we like.
We agree on something One of the missing members of this forum was a chap who used the name Dawuduk. I disagreed with him on almost everything he said except that point - 'you can't pick and choose which bits of Islam you choose to adhere to' and 'you can't search for a scholar who tells gives you an interpretation you like but which is contrary to the written word' He is now living somewhere in dar al Islam having accepted the requirments of Qur'an verse 4:97 - what about you?
The truth never needs modernising; so as a Catholic I can understand the Muslim position of we don't need modernising but the world needs to accept the truth and change. Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.
Love and Respect
The true face of Islam will come when there is a proper shariah in the Muslim world and not just a village or two adopting shariah practices without a shariah set up. Once there is a proper shariah system then all will see thre true face of Islam and that is when Islam will once again lead the world like it did before. Gods law is the ONLY true law because man made law is flawed and everyone is out for themselves.
Islamic Law is complete and perfect and covers all aspects of human life.
The Shari'ah is permanent for all people all the time. It does not change with time and conditions. For example, drinking alcohol and gambling are not allowed under Islamic law. No-one can change this for it is a law that is valid for all time and for all places.
Allah is All-knowing and All-powerful; He is the most Wise and His laws are the best and are complete for he is the Creator and His laws are for the whole of creation and all nations, all countries and for all time for they are universal.
Surely Allah is above all needs. He is not dependent on anything, so His laws are for the good of all people and not for a few, selfish people in "so called democracys" which is clearly just a front for it has no substance in the real world and will perish like all man made laws.
Do not judge the shariah by what you have heard of practices by a few backward villages. It is nothing like that for it is the fairest system on earth which caters for all no matter which creed or religion or faith. It protects all and is not just for the elite like in democracys.
O mankind! There has come to you a direction from your Lord and a prescription for the minds,- a guidance and a beneficence for those who believe. [10:57]
That’s the kind of explanation I would expect someone to give to a child to fob them off. God knows what man is capable of understanding and everything else there is to know. It cannot be beyond the powers of God to deliver a message that is unequivocal and unambiguous. To say that the Qur’an is perfect as God’s message to mankind on how they should live their lives but mankind isn’t capable of understanding is ridiculous. If I were God, knowing all the confusion that would follow, I would have delivered a simpler set of instructions – something like the 10 commandments.
And, nuclear physics is not incomprehensible it is perfectly clear study of a phenomina. Also - see answer on Maths above
We have been given 5 commandments to follow, isnt that less than 10? Then 5 commandments is easier to follow than 10.
I don't think that Islam needs to be modernised because I don't think it is old fashioned! People always consider religion to be an old fashioned thing that can't keep up with the age of technology and our so called modern lives. Just because our way of life has changed and the world has become more globalised does not mean Islam is not modern and can't deal with the new problems that arise in society today.
Maybe the question needs to be rephrased as who should be leading the way on how Islam is interpreted to deal with the issues raised in this time that would be completely alien to desert dwelling medieval tribes. How do muslims ensure that cultural and traditional practices don't slip into Muslim practices as certainties. Im sure that some will shoot me down in flames in this but there seems a massive gulf between my western muslim friends and those I see dancing around in celebration in videos of unfortunate people being stoned in eastern countries. Where is the true face of Islam. I ask this in honesty and not to just cause trouble as some would try to label me.
As I said on the first page of this thread (which you should have read) this is what we need our scholars to be doing...
Where exactly is dar el Islam? Myself I have been doing hijrah ever since I reverted to Islam. Next month I will be going on the road, by foot, for four months to do da'wah work. Insha Allah. Is that what you are asking me about?
Where exactly is dar el Islam? Myself I have been doing hijrah ever since I reverted to Islam. Next month I will be going on the road, by foot, for four months to do da'wah work. Insha Allah. Is that what you are asking me about?
Dar al Islam tradtionally was the abode where Islam was being practiced so it was seen as a refuge for the believers, the weak, widow etc etc - Today however things a lot complicated
Furthermore The Quran as muslims believe it to be is a revelation of God and the main points are clear as Ice even the disbeliver can understand the main messege of the Quran.
The Quran has a worldview and way of looking at life which is God centric, being selfless, helping the weak and the poor consistently, focusing more on good character all in the name of the Divine - The modern world on the other hand is different agendas (consumer society, reducing man to material worth, rejecting the sacred etc).
Last edited by Zafran; 03-26-2011 at 02:41 AM.
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
Dar al Islam tradtionally was the abode where Islam was being practiced so it was seen as a refuge for the believers, the weak, widow etc etc - Today however things a lot complicated
JazakuLLah for the information. I think I know which Dar al Islam you are talking about.
When I was learning about Islam from a friend before, he told me that Muslims do not live in isolation from society in general. He said that Muslims should live like fish in the sea. Even though the fish is immersed in salt water 24/7, the fish does not become salty. Since then I have been learning from various ustaz and the message is generally the same. The real hijrah today is internal. Everyday we are encouraged to hijrah from non-Muslim practices to Muslim practices. The Holy Prophet spent a decade preparing the Sahabah for the hijrah to Medina. So we are encouraged spend the rest of our lives following the example of the Holy Prophet and the Sahabah to prepare ourselves for the final hijrah to jana. Said preparation entails practicing more and more of the teachings of Islam with each passing day that takes us closer and closer to the grave. Insha Allah.
JazakuLLah for the information. I think I know which Dar al Islam you are talking about.
When I was learning about Islam from a friend before, he told me that Muslims do not live in isolation from society in general. He said that Muslims should live like fish in the sea. Even though the fish is immersed in salt water 24/7, the fish does not become salty. Since then I have been learning from various ustaz and the message is generally the same. The real hijrah today is internal. Everyday we are encouraged to hijrah from non-Muslim practices to Muslim practices. The Holy Prophet spent a decade preparing the Sahabah for the hijrah to Medina. So we are encouraged spend the rest of our lives following the example of the Holy Prophet and the Sahabah to prepare ourselves for the final hijrah to jana. Said preparation entails practicing more and more of the teachings of Islam with each passing day that takes us closer and closer to the grave. Insha Allah.
Salaam
True there are no places that can be called dar al Islam expect the Muslims that are practcing the deen and they are all over the place.
peace
Do you think the pious don't sin?
They merely:
Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
Took ownership of it and don't justify it
And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim
In a nutshell, what I see (a bit of a pre qualifier here) is very much like the old and the new, if you are based on the old media platform like books, magazines, news papers and radio/tv, you will be left out and can never get into the modern communication platforms. You cannot be halfway. You are either in the new multi media network or not.
In Islam, we can accept certain 'decrees' as it is based on the faith, whereas those who are not muslims, will have a tough time dealing with them. Hence the subjects cannot come to a close as there is a gap that seems unbridgeable.
Taking this thought a bit further, we have to ask why were the laws made by man different from the scriptural ones? In my understanding it is as a result of the intentions of the people in the past.
Let us take the laws governing commerce according to the Quran. It says something very simple,
Do not over charge (making excessive profits)
Do not hoard (make goods scarce and therefore charge exorbitant prices)
Do not short change (cheat)
Do not be wasteful (and extravagant)
Be charitable (with the profits you earned)
(I think there are one or two more items but I cannot remember off hand) But what it really deals with here are on the individual basis where trading etc was done person to person before. However, how does a person circumnavigate these 'laws'?
Easy, they established a new way to do business. They incorporated laws to accept the establishment of companies and then the "recognize" these companies as being an 'entity' that can transact as though they are people. Now, the platform is there where they can 'do' as they like and put the 'blame' on the company. It is the company that charges excessively, it is the company that does all the things that was banned by the scriptures etc.
Fast forward many generations, we now have money and interests and laws done to reduce the impact of religious doctrines on everyday life.
So, in brief, the laws that were made was to facilitate the break up of religious hold on people coupled with the education system that teaches only secularist beliefs. Hence, in my humble opinion, it not the Quran and the Hadiths cannot be modernized, but it looks like the intention of the modernization is to eliminate religion altogether.
The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:</p>
What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?
Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.
One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.
[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;1418172]The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:</p>
Are you a "modern Christian" that believes in "Cultural Marxism", the United Nations "human rights" dogmas or a Christian that follows Jesus Christ and the tenets of the New Testament? Have you modernised yourself right out of your religion? Think about it, does the Bible talk about the things you say? Did Jesus preach the things you said? Or are those things you have said just modern secularist socialist catch cries? If Islam adopts these modernisms you speak of, it wont be Islam anymore but global socialism for the poor and Zionist plutocratic hegemony for the rest. NWO
Are you a "modern Christian" that believes in "Cultural Marxism", the United Nations "human rights" dogmas or a Christian that follows Jesus Christ and the tenets of the New Testament? Have you modernised yourself right out of your religion? Think about it, does the Bible talk about the things you say? Did Jesus preach the things you said? Or are those things you have said just modern secularist socialist catch cries? If Islam adopts these modernisms you speak of, it wont be Islam anymore but global socialism for the poor and Zionist plutocratic hegemony for the rest. NWO
So, Karl, contrary to your implication I don't think there is anything in Christianity about these things. But, I don't need a Muslim to explain Christianity to me; I need Muslims to help me to better understand Islam. Are you saying that the recognition of unions would be mean that a person was not practicing Islam?
Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.
Personally, I do not believe in "rights." I think if you are incapable of digging a well to obtain clean water, then you do not have the right to drink clean water (unless you find yourself in the good graces of those who show you mercy).
I believe there always exists the opportunity to advance yourself. You must be willing to take the opportunity. It is not the opportunity that is lacking; it is the willingness that is lacking. I think too many people expect things to be given to them, and feel entitled to "rights" which they have not earned by advancing themselves sufficiently to take those rights for themselves. If they truly deserved it, they would have it already because they would have done the work to achieve it. Like clean water. Those who do not understand how clean water is achieved take for granted having it, and are unaware of the effort required to dig the well. Perhaps they think it magically appears, and so perhaps they become confused as to why some people do not have clean water.
Why would any group of people wait to be "given the right" to form a union?
Concerning the redistribution of wealth: in school, if you make an A and the student sitting next to do makes an F, are you able to give him some of your points?
So, Karl, contrary to your implication I don't think there is anything in Christianity about these things. But, I don't need a Muslim to explain Christianity to me; I need Muslims to help me to better understand Islam. Are you saying that the recognition of unions would be mean that a person was not practicing Islam?
What is modern about unions, they were called guilds in the old days and had many other names. Even the fellas building a pyramid thousands of years ago went on strike because their garlic ration was reduced. Mediation about working conditions have been around for ages.
Islam cannot be made modern just like a Gothic Castle can't be modern. You would have to tear it down and replace it with something modern. Basically, if Muslims and Christians want to live like "modern" Westerners they would have to abandon their religion and worship the State.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Quote
One of the missing members of this forum was a chap who used the name Dawuduk. I disagreed with him on almost everything he said except that point - 'you can't pick and choose which bits of Islam you choose to adhere to' and 'you can't search for a scholar who tells gives you an interpretation you like but which is contrary to the written word' He is now living somewhere in dar al Islam having accepted the requirments of Qur'an verse 4:97 - what about you?
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks