Can Islam be modernized? Should it be?

**Grace Seeker** · 03-08-2011

The following post in another thread spurs the question around which I hope we can focus discussion in this thread:

Originally Posted by Argamemnon

That depends on your definition of modernization of course. Islam has the ability to adapt to all ages and changes because it's the truth revealed by Allah. If modernization means changing the fundamentals of Islam (to please others or for whatever reason), then no. If modernization means correcting wrong beliefs and traditions, which were actually never part of Islam in the first place, but added later (which most Muslims are unaware of), then yes. But that's a seperate topic altogether.

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What do you think? Can Islam be modernized? Should it be? Is it wrong, and based on a false assumption, to suggest that it isn't already modernized?

Now to be clear, I'm not talking about technology or the difference between 1st and 3rd worlds. Nor am I focusing on politics nor any country's foreign policy, though I suspect some will see these things as tying in to the discussion. Rather, I am thinking in terms of ideas, especially those that emerged from what was known as the Age of Englightenment in Europe, such as: the rights of people to redress their government; the recognition of a public sphere in which discourse could take place, and the toleration of opposing views so as to allow for that discourse; democracy as a model for the adminstration of government.

One could expand this to include ideas that followed in what is less well-known as the Age of Modernity. Ideas such as the rights of workers to form together in unions; the equal status before the law of men and women; the equality of races; redistribution of both national wealth and political power to those who are without; education for the masses; that opportunity to advance one's self, to breathe clean air and drink clean water are also rights; that the natural world itself needs protecting from human exploitation.

**OmAbdullah** · 11-09-2014

Originally Posted by syed_z

Asalaam O Alaikum Drkashif,

No Muslim can disagree over Verses of Jihad i.e. Battles which Rasul Allah (saw) fought and the Ghazwas and later battles during rule of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. By rejecting or hiding these Verses Muslim would be committing Kufr Or Disbelief. But there is a difference between the Jihad of ISIS and real Mujahideen. The Jihad of ISIS which you've referred to in other threads as well is a deviant form against which Prophet Muhammad (Saw) warned us.

We have to keep in mind that, we should keep 1st what Allah (swt) and his Prophet (saw) kept 1st and keep last what Allah (swt) and His Prophet (saw) kept last. We should not keep 1st what they kept last.

The Prophet (saw) himself while doing Dawah in Makkah, never picked up the sword, which tells us that initial stage is to always do Dawah and spread the message of Islam through kindness and beautiful character. If you are persecuted then, you leave and do Hijrah (emigration in the way of Allah to protect oneself from persecution) and if your safe in a new land then continue preaching there and leave them who persecuted you. But if those persecutors come after you and still chose not to leave you, and kill you, then you pickup a sword and defend yourself till either they say La Ilaha ilAllah or they drop their sword and decide to make peace.

If during your Dawah, in the initial stages of Dawah, you talk about Jihad, then it doesn't make any sense because obviously when dong Dawah you need to talk about Real Jihad or Greater Jihad as the Prophet (saw) said himself and gave preference to before the Jihad of Sword, i.e. The Greater Jihad is to Struggle against one's own self. So we cannot give preference to something over the preference of Muhammad (Saw).

(Al Hujurat 49:02) O you who have believed, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet or be loud to him in speech like the loudness of some of you to others, lest your deeds become worthless while you perceive not.

That is why I believe there is a saying of Hazrat Isa (a.s) that Kingdom of Heaven 1st needs to be formed inside your heart before it can be formed on earth. If the hope of The Mercy of Allah (swt) and the Fear of Separation from Him (swt) has not entered One's heart then Iman (Belief) hasn't entered and therefore it is futile for such hearts devoid of True Iman to pickup a sword and establish a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

The Khawarij were the 1st one's to raise their voice over the Voice of the Prophet (Saw).....

Abu Sa'eed al-Khudree, said,"'Ali ibn Abi Taalib sent some gold ore wrapped in dyed leather from Yemen to Allaah's Messenger, and he divided it up between four people: Zaid al-Khail, al-Aqra' ibn Haabis, 'Uyainah ibn Hisn and 'Alqamah ibn 'Ulaathah. A person among the companions remarked that they had a better claim to the wealth than these people.34When this remark reached the Prophet (a), he said, "Will you not trust me whom the One above the heavens has trusted? Information comes to me from the heavens morning and evening." Then a man with sunken eyes, high cheekbones, a protruding forehead, thick beard and a shaven head stood up and said,"Muhammad! Fear Allaah". The Prophet(pbuh) turned to him and replied, "Woe be to you. Am I not the person who fears Allaah the most?" The man then walked away and Khaalid ibn al-Waleed jumped up and said "O Messenger of Allaah, shall I not cut off his head?" But the Prophet(pbuh) said, "Perhaps he observes prayer." Khaalid then said, "Perhaps one who observes prayers says with his tongue what is not in his heart." The Prophet(pbuh) replied, "I was not commanded to pierce the hearts of people or slit open their bellies." Then he glanced at the man who was walking away and said. "There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man who will recite the Qur'aan, but it will not go beyond their throats; they will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target." ( Reported by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim )

Allah (Swt) says in the Following Verse of Surah Al Kahf Verses 18:103 - 104:

Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall We inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?
[They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work."

Imam Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir of these Verses mentions that Ali (r.a) pointed these Verses to refer to Khawarij, and Ali (r.a) also defeated them in the Battle of Nahrwan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nahrawan

ISIS and their likeminded Muslims are modern day Khawarij and believe that their deeds are great in the sight of Allah (swt) and what they do is give three choices to all Non Muslims in the world:

1. Say La Ilaha IlAllah and live under our rule
2. Pay Jizyah
3 or The Sword.

This is unacceptable way to do Dawah, rather this is against Dawah. How can you tell some people living in a land of their own for centuries to either accept Islam or be killed even though they haven't fought against you, not even a word they've said against you, and this is in reference to the Yazidis of Iraq whose women are being taken prisoners by ISIS fighters and men are being slaughtered.

That is why it important to read the Story of Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) and learn guidance from this story in the Quran, who left the people living in their own traditional way of life and did not force the Law of Allah (swt) down their throat:

(Al Kahf 18:90) “. . until when he (eventually) came to the rising sun; he found it rising on a people for whom We had provided no covering (for protection from sunshine, weather, environment) other than (the natural) covering.

(18:91) “Thus (did he meet them and thus did he wisely and compassionately leave them undisturbed in their natural way of life); and We (i.e. Allah Most High) did encompass with Our knowledge his grasp of the situation (and his response to it).

Dhul Qarnayn (a.s) whom Allah (swt) Himself has praised did not do what ISIS is doing in Iraq and Syria against Christians and Yazidis living peacefully with Muslims for centuries.

May be ISIS and likeminded Muslims should ponder over these Verses of Dhul Qarnayn.

Assalaamo alaikum.

Please revise your translation of the verses, especially, the last two verses from Surah Al Kahf.

If the Prophet sallah Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive in these days then, according to you, what would be his attitude to the present situation?

Would he try to protect the innocent Muslims or would he let them killed and tortured as it is happening?

Allah knows best what had happened to the Christians and Yazidis in Iraq, but what we knew was that many non Muslim countries became active to protect them and provide them food from the airplanes. Surely the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam would provide them shelter and food etc. if he was alive but he would also take care of the innocent Muslim men, women and children in the most suitable way, and he would not discriminate against the Muslims as you are doing. For Yazidis and Christians there are many non-Mualim and Muslim countries to protect them from hunger and all trouble, but who is there to hear the voice of those helpless Muslims about whom the media gave news that they were eating cats, and that most of them will die due to cold in the coming days of winter? Who would respond to protect them from burning with petrol bombs when the media gave news that the smell of burning flesh of those helpless Muslims was smelled from that much number of kms? Where were you at that time to raise your voice in their favor? Or is their blood and life so cheap now in the absence of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam that no one on the earth of Allah has the right to raise his voice for their protection?

Allah is the Greatest and truly Allah is the Owner and Holder of All power. I pray to Allah to bring Heavenly Help to all of the suffering and oppressed Muslims as Allah had helped the Bani Isra'el in the past and as Allah had killed the killers of the Muslims by the same Fire which the killers had lit to burn the innocent Muslims. Everyone must read the Surah Al Burooj to know the story of the killers , those who couldn't control the Fire after burning the Muslims and right there, were burnt with the same Fire. The Killers must take lesson that death came to both of the parties. But the Muslims went to the Mercy of Allah in the Paradise while the killers went to face the Anger of Allah in the Everlasting Hell!!!

**syed_z** · 11-09-2014

Originally Posted by nbegam

If the Prophet sallah Allaho alaihi wa sallam was alive in these days then, according to you, what would be his attitude to the present situation?

Would he try to protect the innocent Muslims or would he let them killed and tortured as it is happening?

Allah knows best what had happened to the Christians and Yazidis in Iraq, but what we knew was that many non Muslim countries became active to protect them and provide them food from the airplanes. Surely the Prophet salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam would provide them shelter and food etc. if he was alive but he would also take care of the innocent Muslim men, women and children in the most suitable way, and he would not discriminate against the Muslims as you are doing. For Yazidis and Christians there are many non-Mualim and Muslim countries to protect them from hunger and all trouble, but who is there to hear the voice of those helpless Muslims about whom the media gave news that they were eating cats, and that most of them will die due to cold in the coming days of winter? Who would respond to protect them from burning with petrol bombs when the media gave news that the smell of burning flesh of those helpless Muslims was smelled from that much number of kms? Where were you at that time to raise your voice in their favor? Or is their blood and life so cheap now in the absence of Muhammad salla Allaho alaihi wa sallam that no one on the earth of Allah has the right to raise his voice for their protection?

Wa Alaikum Salaam

Did I say all of that?

Bro I wasn't ignoring the plight of the Muslims, I didn't even discuss them, I was just pointing out the Deviant groups amongst the Muslims who put us to shame. Hope your having a good day there?

**Ali Mujahidin** · 11-10-2014

Originally Posted by nbegam

From your statements it is very clear that you didn't read the Holy Quraan. If a non-Muslim read (in the past) the Holy Quraan only for the purpose of criticism, he was so much impressed that he became Muslim. This is due to the unique Truth 0f the Holy Quraan. I advise you very sincerely to read it with a clear heart. This will be good for you. If you don't then death is surely coming to all of us including you. the Regret at the time of death shall be very painful and everlasting. Then there will be no chance to come to life again and make up the loss. then you will surely remember this sincere advice and will regret saying, "alas! Would that I had accepted the advice and had read the Quraan with clear heart without any enmity!"

Once again, please read it yourself and then decide with fairness and justice.

Much as I like your attitude towards the Holy Quran, I am afraid that the harsh reality of life is that there are actually people who can read the Holy Quran, and understand what they are reading, yet do not believe in Allah or practice Islam. Allah tells us about such people in Surah 7:179.

http://i.imgur.com/TTKYljO.png

**Eshai** · 11-10-2014

Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin

Wait, Eshai, you are confusing this old man. So which is it? Do you believe that a right is something you take or something that you give? Yes, in the end you said you do not believe that a right is something that is taken, which is why you do not believe in rights. So if you believe that a right is not something that is taken, it would mean that you believe that a right is something which is given. In which case, why wouldn't you believe in rights?

Look at it this way.

Children are given rights. They have a right to, say, education. This right is obviously given because children, obviously, do not have the might to take this right to education. So do you not believe that children have a right to education even though it is a right which is given? Do you not believe that we, adults, who have the might, have a responsibility to make sure that children, who do not have the might, are given the right to education?

Please enlighten me.

I believe that no one is truly entitled to anything. That is the basis of my belief in this matter.

When I use the word "right," I am making an effort to appeal to how other people tend to view what a "right" is. So I truly do not believe in rights at all, according to the practical definition of the word "right:" "a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way" - Google. I believe this whole idea of what is "right" was put into place by those strong enough to make it so.

What I believe in are privileges. People are given privileges. Some children are given the privilege of an education. Some adults are given "rights," and though they are called rights I believe they are actually privileges. And if there is truly a difference between rights and privileges, can one of these not be taken away? Ideally, a "right" implies something which cannot be removed. In a civil society, we can have "rights" which cannot be removed, but only as long as the society has the strength to stand and maintain such rights. If there is chaos, the "rights" which we thought we were entitled to as human beings suddenly disappear.

There is a certain mindset which comes along with the concept of having "rights." In my view, it is a mindset which creates in a person the belief that they inherently deserve something, when no one really deserves anything they're incapable of seizing on their own. Strength is required. There are many forms of strength, including the strength one gets by allying one's self with a civil society and choosing to obey its laws in order to gain its privileges/rights while relying on the assumption that other people within that society will also obey its laws, the typical predictability of such enabling one to manipulate the society and other people to further one's desires--be they selfish desires or God's.

Now, if the strong on this Earth are charged by God to maintain God's rights, then yes I believe those people are indeed obligated to fulfill their duty. But even if this is true, God will not intercede to make the strong do so if the strong decide to go against their duty. Thus, our so-called "rights" aren't things which are guaranteed, nor are we inherently entitled to them; having the privilege of having rights is still dependent upon those strong enough to give them, or to take them away. God may want everyone to have these rights, but God cannot enforce them on this proving ground. It is man's game to play.

So are we not, in fact, obligated to become strong to take the "rights" which God wishes for us?
And if these "rights" are things which are taken, not given, are they really rights at all? I personally do not think so. I think they are things which have been made to be right through some kind of force (be it vulgar, brute force or manipulative force).

If our "rights" were truly rights, and we are entitled to them, wouldn't every human being always have them? How can the rights bestowed upon us by God ever be taken away? In the next life, perhaps they can't be. But they surely can in this one. This is what indicates to me that there really are no human rights. There is only what you can take, and what you cannot take.

So do the people who drink polluted water have the right to drink clean water? Evidently not, since they haven't taken that right and no one has helped them to get that right. Why haven't the believers of these rights gone to their aid and solved the problem? Apparently even they think the people drinking the polluted water deserve their fate, since they haven't done anything about it except say that someone should do something about it.

If I sincerely believed that it was my duty to help others out of pure altruism, or that it is commanded of me by God, then that is what I would be doing. I believe that people say such things because it makes them appear more pious, and they do it to build up their earthly reputation with no sincere desire to do God's work. Because if they truly cared, they'd be right along side the people who need them most. They'd be actively enforcing God's word with all of their might. But because they do not, this tells me that a part of them believes that other people should do for themselves, individually and collectively.

So why the outcry to get clean water to people who are drinking polluted water, followed by...? Nothing. Do you truly feel you've "done your part" by taking a side and sharing a picture on YouFace? Is this the extent of your aid, and deep down inside you really believe that they need to organize themselves and fight for their own clean water themselves? If you don't believe this, then why aren't you getting them clean water and fulfilling your obligation?

**Eshai** · 11-10-2014

PS: In my previous post, I was not speaking exclusively to user Ali Mujahidin. I was mostly speaking in general when I use the word "you." My apologizes for not clarifying that ahead of time.

**Ali Mujahidin** · 11-10-2014

So, Eshai, you do not believe that anyone is entitled to anything. Does that include you and yourself? Do you mean to say you yourself are not entitled to anything? Like when you were just born, when you were just a helpless baby, do you believe that you do not have the right to life? Do you believe that you are not entitled to live?

**Eshai** · 11-10-2014

Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin

So, Eshai, you do not believe that anyone is entitled to anything. Does that include you and yourself? Do you mean to say you yourself are not entitled to anything? Like when you were just born, when you were just a helpless baby, do you believe that you do not have the right to life? Do you believe that you are not entitled to live?

Yes I believe this. I believe I am not entitled to anything, including my own life.

**Abz2000** · 11-12-2014

And do you also believe you are not entitled to leave the house without being robbed or spat at?
Or maybe to lock your door at night?
What if someone told you you didn't, would you accept such an absurdity?

Allah gave to every person their mutual rights, and for the wrongs done He has told us that He will re-allocate with perfect balance on the D.O.J.
Where He decides to forgive a usurper, He will recompense the victim from His endless bounty - we have also been told that if a person runs out of positive balance on that Day, the same will have to accept sins of the usurped until the balance is even - unless He sees fit to recompense personally.
And Allah knows best.
Even the prick of a thorn is reimbursed with expiation of sins (and logically with reward if the balance of sins is cleared at the stage of accounting).
It's called compensation in "the modern world" (lol for the term used coz the world is still the same size and time is still constant).

I would recommend that we skim through the first verses of surah nisaa (ch 4) which focuses mainly on rights before even bothering to dispute such baseless ideas from hawaa.
For verily the most noble speech is the speech of Allah and the best guidance is that exemplified through Muhammad (pbuh and upon his family and nation).

**Eshai** · 11-13-2014

Originally Posted by Abz2000

And do you also believe you are not entitled to leave the house without being robbed or spat at?
Or maybe to lock your door at night?

Yes. I believe that I am not entitled to these things. But be mindful of what the word "entitled" means.

Originally Posted by Abz2000

What if someone told you you didn't, would you accept such an absurdity?

Whether or not it is absurd is a matter of context, which I would naturally take into consideration. If I disagreed with it, I would not accept it by choice. But there is always the chance that I would be made to accept it, whether or not I agreed.

In the US state of Florida during the aftermath of hurricane Andrew, there was no law for many weeks. Many people did not have doors to lock, and looters were everywhere. What few police were available finally told people to do what they were doing already: shoot and kill the looters on sight.

The citizens of Florida, according to the rights of their country and state, had the right to walk around freely and in safety. They had the right, according to the law, to not be assaulted and have their property stolen. But the law alone could not enforce these rights. The good will of their protectors, however strong, was inefficient to uphold them. The only thing that enforced these rights was that those people were willing to fight and kill to protect those rights. They had to have the might to uphold what we call "basic rights," for if they did not have the might they would not have had the right.

**Abz2000** · 11-13-2014

In Islam there are many clearly defined rights and according to Sahih Muslim The bare minimum unconditional right given by Allah to be expected in terms of possessions is the mouthful that sustains and the loincloth,
the rest is a matter of jurisprudence faith in Allah and seeking of His face and fairness and justice.
Umar ibn al Khattab is reported to have suspended the punishment of theft during the drought/famine, it was accepted that the starving would take their mouthful.

The good will of their protectors, however strong, was inefficient to uphold them.

They have taken besides Allah [false] "gods" that perhaps they may help them
They are not able to help them, but they are for them a present army
So let not their speech grieve you. Indeed, We know what they conceal and what they declare.

Quran- Yaseen (36:74-76)

*for if they did not have the might they would not have had the right.

They already have the right, they take that right with might if they are oppressed and a zuaalim oppressor/incompetent or incapable leader refuses to or is unable to establish the Law of God themself. And might itself is granted by Allah.

If you're going to rely on might alone, then submit to and rely on Allah alone, for All might belongs to Him - no matter what vain imaginings or untrue constructs we may have conjured in our minds about ourselves or other people like us.

Does man not consider that We created him from a [mere] sperm-drop - then at once he is a clear adversary?

Quran - Yaseen 36:77

I would advise you to have a little flick through the Quran and history and you'll hopefully come to know that God has destroyed gangs like the people of Sodom and the forces of Pharaoh and Thamud despite not giving His Messengers the physical might in their own hands.
When one is true to God and does his best within his means and good judgement, the rest is down to God.
When Lut (as)'s rights were violated, and he was judged by Allah as the wronged, he wished for a strong support and received it.
When Moses obeyed God, commanded the right and forbade the wrong, and refused to be cowed by the "might" of Pharaoh, and when he and his peoples' rights were judged to have been violated by God, the oppressers were just dealt with.

Has there reached you the story of the forces?
Of Pharaoh and Thamud?
But the kuffar are in denial,
While Allah encompasses them from behind.

Quran Al Buruj 85:17-20

Please read the Quran before making a fool of urself on an Islamic forum dude, examples of the mentality you project have been set:

Qarun (Korah) was doubtless, of the people of Moses; but he acted insolently towards them: such were the treasures We had bestowed on him that their very keys would have been a burden to a body of strong men,
behold, his people said to him:
"Exult not, for God loveth not those who exult (in riches). "But seek, with that which God has bestowed on thee, the Home of*the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: but do thou good, as God has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land: for God loves not those who do mischief.

"He said: "This has been given to me because of a certain knowledge which I have."
Did he not know that God had destroyed, before him, (whole) generations,- which were superior to him in strength and greater in the amount (of riches) they had collected? but the wicked are not called (immediately) to account for their sins.
So he went forth among his people in the (pride of his wordly) glitter.
Said those whose aim is the Life of this World:
"Oh! that we had the like of what Qarun has got! for he is truly a lord of mighty good fortune!"
But those who had been granted (true) knowledge said:
"Alas for you! The reward of God is best for those who believe and work*righteousness: but this none shall attain, save those who steadfastly persevere (in*good)."

Then We caused the earth to swallow up him and his house; and he had not (the least little) party to help him against God, nor could he defend himself.
And those who had envied his position the day before began to say on the morrow:
"Ah! it is indeed God Who enlarges the provision or restricts it, to any of His servants*He pleases! had it not been that God was gracious to us, He could have caused the earth to swallow us up! Ah! those who reject God will assuredly never prosper."

That Home of the Hereafter We shall give to those who intend not high-handedness or mischief on earth: and the end is (best) for the righteous.

If any does good, the reward to him is better than his deed; but if any does evil, the doers of evil are only punished (to the extent) of their deeds.

(The Holy Quran, 28:76-84)

**Eshai** · 11-13-2014

Originally Posted by Abz2000

Please read the Quran before making a fool of urself on an Islamic forum dude

Please do not assume that my intention is to show that any facet of Islam is incorrect. I am strictly speaking to the ability to maintain what has been decreed as God's will. My argument is based on the simple fact that might is required to do so, regardless of where anyone thinks the might comes from.

As for making a fool... if asking questions and conversing from a perspective that differs from your own is foolish, then why have a forum at all? I am here to learn, as are you. You need not insult me to make your point, which was never my aim to reject in the first place.

Originally Posted by Abz2000

They already have the right, they take that right with might if they are oppressed

I can see what you are saying here. If no one oppresses, then God's rights are never removed to begin with. If everyone were good and peaceful, no might would ever be required.

But this would mean that all humans should be able to live without harming other human beings. I wonder if this is possible.

**Abz2000** · 11-13-2014

Apologies if i unduly made you feel insulted, was just surprised by the coldness i perceived.

But this would mean that all humans should be able to live without harming other human beings. I wonder if this is possible.

That's one of the results of creating humans (unlike angels) in God's image, we are given a sort of managerial/caretaker position with the limited ability to run the affairs, and are also given instruction manuals via living examples to guide the process.
when we don't implement God's guidance we totally mess up, and He intervenes with a strong hand when the complaints start going up.
But when we do implenent them, we mess up sometimes, but God doesn't. We oppress sometimes, but God doesn't. We give up sometimes, but God doesn't.
That is why we have the option to accept that He's Boss, repent, submit and make amends.
On the day of judgement all including iblis who challenged His judgment will know that God is not unjust - despite His means and unlimited ability.

The same Iblis challenged God about Job's sincerity and patience, God allowed the devil to put Job to the test, Job won through and vindicated God.
Will mankind win through or fail?
Either way we'll vindicate God's judgement and justice.
A question of evaluating our vulnerable situation and saving ourselves and each other really. Delving into the Big "whys" won't really be answered or help us.
Maybe we'll know those on that mighty day.

And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."

They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is The Knower, The Wise
He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names."
And when he had informed them of their names, He said,
"Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed."

Quran - Al Baqarah 2:30-33

Man is a form of artificial intelligence with a spark of creativity into whom God breathed of His spirit, unlike the angels who are much more limited in their ability of independence.

This can be seen in our ability to just make a name for something - or choose a path based on reasoning and experience despite our difference of language and location. The name which would be programmed as given to angels, who flinch not from executing the commands exactly as given.

Mankind reached the starting point of that reflection based on experience 1,400 years ago as can be seen from the fact that messages to tribes had been overrided by a universal message admonishing and giving glad tidings to everyone who should "read".
The learning of right and wrong in God's sight is no longer just personal experience based.
I hope our reasoning and reading of past examples takes us to the path of acceptance of God's Might, Mercy and Justice - because logical reasoning only shows that path as the best option.

**M.I.A.** · 11-13-2014

i think its not a case of modernisation rather, reinterpretation.

but each to his own really.

as OP said the question ties in with literally everything you could possibly think of..and would take quiet a while to answer fully.

but yes, even if islam does not need modernisation.. it still needs to be interpreted correctly to be successful.

what success is, only allah swt knows.

**Abz2000** · 11-14-2014

Success is meeting Allah as a sincere believer who accepted the truth and submitted to Allah, and judged by His laws.
The rest is kufr, which is oppression.
If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

We are living in the final stage, past examples of dos and don'ts have been set in the most illustrative of ways, and the truth and best path have been shown to us in the most vivid manner, do we need to totally mess up and cause chaos in the insincere and false pretence of learning and adapting while being false to ourselves and to each other before God deems us as no longer useful but rather hindrances to those who choose to accept the truth and follow it when we know that God has explained how and why He dealt with Sodom, Gomorra, 'Ad, Thamud, Pharaoh etc? God was not unjust to them, but they were unjust to themselves and to others.

**M.I.A.** · 11-15-2014

Originally Posted by Abz2000

Success is meeting Allah as a sincere believer who accepted the truth and submitted to Allah, and judged by His laws.
The rest is kufr, which is oppression.
If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

We are living in the final stage, past examples of dos and don'ts have been set in the most illustrative of ways, and the truth and best path have been shown to us in the most vivid manner, do we need to totally mess up and cause chaos in the insincere and false pretence of learning and adapting while being false to ourselves and to each other before God deems us as no longer useful but rather hindrances to those who choose to accept the truth and follow it when we know that God has explained how and why He dealt with Sodom, Gomorra, 'Ad, Thamud, Pharaoh etc? God was not unjust to them, but they were unjust to themselves and to others.

im just generalising here but i would like you to understand something, which you are probably already aware of..

islam was not sent to a perfect people.

when it mentions halal and haram, gambling and alcohol, fornication, desire and so on...

it does so because the people needed to know about it.

they were involved in these things otherwise there would be no need to tell them any different.

in fact if men were other than men then there would be no need to tell them to lower there gaze.

you are quick to mention western leaders and yet many muslim countries have problems of corruption or persecution of there own citizens and minorities.

if you have no care about the economy or the place where you live then what can you hope to achieve? what foundations can you set for tomorrow?

and if there was no need to invest in this life.. then what legacy would the muslim people leave behind?

we must not hasten towards any judgement day.

allah swt says mankind was created in toil..

put your hands and minds towards building a better future, not the intention of burning things when you have nothing better to replace them with.

there is a difference between righteousness and self-righteousness... very early on in the quran it says (loosely paraphrased) that it takes absolute humility to achieve success.

i have no idea why.

**Abz2000** · 11-16-2014

Man may not be perfect but Islam has been perfected, so let us try to understand and heed it, and not be obstructed and led astray from heeding it.

Western banking cartels and leaders are propping up tyrants in lands that practice Islam - it wouldn't take an hour to pull down the tyrants in our lands had it not been for the support and fake concern by westwern kafir leaders. It would therefore be a foolish diversion to concentrate on the stringed tin-pot puppets and waste all our ammo on them.

Economy is important, however is NOT the ultimate policy maker in a non-criminal society.
Economy takes poll position only in mafias and cia type drug smuggling organisations where blood of humans is cheap.

Without this life there is no paradise or hell, so let's not forget Allah and forget ourselves.

I unsincerely apologise for having been subjected to bad experiences by kufr systems and having been prevented from implementing Islam when i saw through the falsehoods of demonocracy, communism, capitalism etc - and when falsehoid tries to tell us what Islam should and shouldn't be in the effort of humiliating Muslims and making them feel inadequate, it is commendable when one keeps a high head and throws their falsehood at their faces- read of abu dujanah the man with the strut

Let us repent, submit and walk aright, for the Kingdom of God is here

**Eshai** · 11-17-2014

Originally Posted by Abz2000

If modernization means rejecting God, submitting to obama and cameron, creating a community or nation where people most able to manipulate and lie dictate law based on the highest principle which is faultily perceived as economy, anyone or thing other than God is "a god", God is private and Satan is manifest, truth is perceived as unwise/not pragmatic, and becoming prostitute or gay or lesbian or usurer, getting drunk, walking about like naked prehistoric savages, copulating like pigs and donkeys with no regard for decency or fidelity and forgetting almost everything every week is wonderful -
- Then i say this: it is a deceiver based society run by dajjal's smoke and mirrors deception method, and vile indeed are the behests of such modernization- if indeed you call it modernization.

I am sure that no one is suggesting that modernization of Islam means rejecting God and indulging sin.

Though, such things are rampant. Perhaps it would do well for humanity at large to be disciplined.

**ardianto** · 11-17-2014

People in Arabian peninsula were rejecting God and indulging sins before Islam came. This period called "Jahiliyyah" (age of ignorance).

So, if now Muslims reject Allah and indulge sins, it's not modernization, but back to ancient age.

**Abz2000** · 11-17-2014

Originally Posted by Eshai

I am sure that no one is suggesting that modernization of Islam means rejecting God and indulging sin.

Though, such things are rampant. Perhaps it would do well for humanity at large to be disciplined.

Then i would advise you to check the five attempted points:

(you may hit mute if you disagree with music)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=q73eKuLFnJQ

It would do well for humanity to repent and submit to God.
Because Allah will fulfill His light however much the disbelievers and hypocrites may be averse.

**Eshai** · 11-17-2014

Thanks for the link, Abz. It seems logical that the people who believe in God's law would make it their law. And if the will of those people are in the majority, who would have the right to stop them from implementing such? And for those who are not believers, is God's law not beneficial for all mankind regardless of their faith? For cannot the followers of God live in harmony with those who have different faiths? And does not the Qur'an tell us to befriend those of other faiths?