CANBERRA, Australia (AP) — Muslim women would have to remove veils and show their faces to police on request or risk a prison sentence under proposed new laws in Australia's most populous state that have drawn criticism as culturally insensitive.
A vigorous debate that the proposal has triggered reflects the cultural clashes being ignited by the growing influx of Muslim immigrants and the unease that visible symbols of Islam are causing in predominantly white Christian Australia since 1973 when the government relaxed its immigration policy.
Under the law proposed by the government of New South Wales, which includes Sydney, a woman who defies police by refusing to remove her face veil could be sentenced to a year in prison and fined 5,500 Australian dollars ($5,900).
The bill — to be voted on by the state parliament in August — has been condemned by civil libertarians and many Muslims as an overreaction to a traffic offense case involving a Muslim woman driver in a "niqab," or a veil that reveals only the eyes.
The government says the law would require motorists and criminal suspects to remove any head coverings so that police can identify them.
Critics say the bill smacks of anti-Muslim bias given how few women in Australia wear burqas. In a population of 23 million, only about 400,000 Australians are Muslim.
Community advocates estimate that fewer than 2,000 women wear face veils, and it is likely that even a smaller percentage drives.
"It does seem to be very heavy handed, and there doesn't seem to be a need," said Australian Council for Civil Liberties spokesman David Bernie. "It shows some cultural insensitivity."
The controversy over the veils is similar to the debate in other Western countries over whether Muslim women should be allowed to wear garments that hide their faces in public. France and Belgium have banned face-covering veils in public. Typical arguments are that there is a need to prevent women from being forced into wearing veils by their families or that public security requires people to be identifiable.
Bernie noted that while a bandit disguised with a veil and sunglasses robbed a Sydney convenience store last year, there were no Australian crime trends involving Muslim women's clothing.
"It is a religious issue here," said Mouna Unnjinal, a mother of five who has been driving in Sydney in a niqab for 18 years and has never been booked for a traffic offense.
"We're going to feel very intimidated and our privacy is being invaded," she added.
Unnjinal said she would not hesitate to show her face to a policewoman. But she fears male police officers might misuse the law to deliberately intimidate Muslim women.
"If I'm pulled over by a policeman, I might say I want to see a female police lady and he says, 'No, I want to see your face,'" Unnjinal said. "Where does that leave me? Do I get penalized 5,000 dollars and sent to jail for 12 months because I wouldn't?"
Sydney's best-selling The Daily Telegraph newspaper declared the proposal "the world's toughest burqa laws." In France, wearing a burqa — the all-covering garment that hides the entire body except eyes and hands — in public is punishable by a 150 euro ($217) fine only.
The New South Wales state Cabinet decided to create the law on July 4 in response to Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione's call for greater police powers. Other states including Victoria and Western Australia are considering similar legislation.
"I don't care whether a person is wearing a motorcycle helmet, a burqa, niqab, face veil or anything else — the police should be allowed to require those people to make their identification clear," State Premier Barry O'Farrell said in a statement.
The laws were motivated by the bungled prosecution of Carnita Matthews, a 47-year-old Muslim mother of seven who was booked by a highway patrolman for a minor traffic violation in Sydney in June last year.
An official complaint was made in Matthews' name against Senior Constable Paul Fogarty, the policeman who gave her the ticket. The complaint accused Fogarty of racism and of attempting to tear off her veil during their roadside encounter.
Unknown to Matthews, the encounter was recorded by a camera inside Fogarty's squad car. The video footage showed her aggressively berating a restrained Fogarty and did not support her claim that he tried to grab her veil before she reluctantly and angrily lifted it to show her face.
Matthews was sentenced in November to six months in jail for making a deliberately false statement to police.
But that conviction and sentence were quashed on appeal last month without her serving any time in jail because a judge was not convinced that it was Matthews who signed the false statutory declaration. The woman who signed the document had worn a burqa and a justice of the peace who witnessed the signing had not looked beneath the veil to confirm her identity.
Bernie, the civil libertarian, said the proposed law panders to public anger against Muslims that the case generated on talk radio and in tabloid newspapers, which itself is a symptom of the suspicion with which immigrants are viewed.
Muslims are among the fastest-growing minorities in Australia and mostly live in the two largest cities, Sydney and Melbourne. There are many examples to suggest they are not entirely welcome.
Muslim and non-Muslim youths rioted for days at Sydney's Cronulla beach in 2005, drawing international attention to surging ethnic tensions. Proposals to build Islamic schools are resisted by local protest groups. The convictions of a Sydney gang of Lebanese Muslims who raped several non-Muslim women were likened by a judge to war atrocities and condemned in the media.
In 2006, then-Prime Minister John Howard published a book in which he said Muslims were Australia's first wave of immigrants to fail to assimilate with the mainstream.
Government leaders have also condemned some Muslim clerics who said husbands are entitled to smack disobedient wives, force them to have sex and for suggesting that women who don't hide their faces behind veils invite rape.
"I wouldn't like to go and say this is Muslim bashing," said Ikebal Patel, president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, of the proposed New South Wales laws.
"But I think that the timing of this was really bad for Muslims," he said.
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
"I don't care whether a person is wearing a motorcycle helmet, a burqa, niqab, face veil or anything else — the police should be allowed to require those people to make their identification clear," State Premier Barry O'Farrell said in a statement.
This.
And as for the muslim woman in the article who doesn't want to show her face to a male police officer....... maybe she shouldn't be driving then? Why should she have the right to not identify herself (assuming she's been pulled over for a valid reason) or to hold things up and cause the extra expense in time and money of waiting for a female officer to come to the scene?
Just because her religion calls for it should not give her any more right to hide her face than the rest of us have. Anywhere I am not allowed to wear a ski mask (for legitimate security or identity reaons), she should not be allowed to wear a face veil.
And as for the muslim woman in the article who doesn't want to show her face to a male police officer....... maybe she shouldn't be driving then? Why should she have the right to not identify herself (assuming she's been pulled over for a valid reason) or to hold things up and cause the extra expense in time and money of waiting for a female officer to come to the scene?
Just because her religion calls for it should not give her any more right to hide her face than the rest of us have. Anywhere I am not allowed to wear a ski mask (for legitimate security or identity reaons), she should not be allowed to wear a face veil.
Peace be to you:
Pygoscelis:
you have provided your view on intolerance and it is noted. A religious observance shouldn't be outlawed. The remedy is when a person is in a country that doesn't respect their values and morals and make laws that infringe upon religious freedoms they should move. A woman uncovering the niqib doesn't violate any tenets when not done to allure a man.
__________________________________________________ _ Ta-Ha 20:53
Allathee jaAAala lakumu alarda mahdan wasalaka lakum feeha subulan waanzala mina alssamai maan faakhrajna bihi azwajan min nabatin shatta
20:53 (Y. Ali) "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
And as for the muslim woman in the article who doesn't want to show her face to a male police officer....... maybe she shouldn't be driving then? Why should she have the right to not identify herself (assuming she's been pulled over for a valid reason) or to hold things up and cause the extra expense in time and money of waiting for a female officer to come to the scene?
Just because her religion calls for it should not give her any more right to hide her face than the rest of us have. Anywhere I am not allowed to wear a ski mask (for legitimate security or identity reaons), she should not be allowed to wear a face veil.
what law disables you from wearing a ski mask? Let's face it, the only legitimate reason to pull a niqabi off the road is for none other than racial profiling. I just came from the middle east, lots of niqabis drive there with no problems whatsoever, in fact I'd venture to say they're some of the safest drivers on the road. They spend loads of money on useless machines to make people naked at the airport, they can have equally portable machines to check for fingerprints when they're stop you to check license and registration!
Are you too good to be true or have you no imaginative bones in your body? Resources wasted on less than 1% of any given population? Try to show the same concerns when trillions are spent on useless wars!
are these not considered masks or must they come in cloth form for you to object to them?
best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
what law disables you from wearing a ski mask? Let's face it, the only legitimate reason to pull a niqabi off the road is for none other than racial profiling. I just came from the middle east, lots of niqabis drive there with no problems whatsoever, in fact I'd venture to say they're some of the safest drivers on the road. They spend loads of money on useless machines to make people naked at the airport, they can have equally portable machines to check for fingerprints when they're stop you to check license and registration!
Are you too good to be true or have you no imaginative bones in your body? Resources wasted on less than 1% of any given population? Try to show the same concerns when trillions are spent on useless wars!
are these not considered masks or must they come in cloth form for you to object to them?
best
I am a motorcyclist and I am required to remove my helmet when entering a bank or similar fiancial institution(Including the one where I had worked for nearly ten years and was on Christian name terms with the security guards), passing through immigration/customs and at any time when an official needs to validate my identity,crikey do you think this is anti-agnostic motorcyclist?
And that is the reason why they are putting forward this law, or did you not read the bit in the article where the muslim lady (who was proved guilty and a liar by filmed evidence) escaped punishment by having her identity concealed during one stage of the legal process.
I don't think it's unreasonable to have to reveal your face to the police if asked, as long as this law is not abused.
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
I am a motorcyclist and I am required to remove my helmet when entering a bank or similar fiancial institution(Including the one where I had worked for nearly ten years and was on Christian name terms with the security guards), passing through immigration/customs and at any time when an official needs to validate my identity,crikey do you think this is anti-agnostic motorcyclist?
And that is the reason why they are putting forward this law, or did you not read the bit in the article where the muslim lady (who was proved guilty and a liar by filmed evidence) escaped punishment by having her identity concealed during one stage of the legal process.
format_quote Originally Posted by sabr*
The government says the law would require motorists and criminal suspects to remove any head coverings so that police can identify them.
We're not talking about banks or airports both have ample female employees to check the all too frequent turds posing as niqabis or even the legitimate ones, do you have a reading impediment otherwise? I have already presented a perfectly legitimate solution for when said motorists are stopped for whatever reason 'minor' or 'major' or concocted by bigots!
format_quote Originally Posted by Santoku
crikey do you think this is anti-agnostic motorcyclist?
I have an anti dolts laws which would beg the question of why you continue to write on an Islamic board?
Last edited by جوري; 07-13-2011 at 01:40 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
If a police officer pulls me over for speeding or whatever and asks for my license and registration, and I'm wearing a ski mask, she's quite likely to demand I remove the mask so she can check my face against the photo on the license. This is a perfectly legitimate request and I would not object to taking the mask off, even if it was really cold.
Let's face it, the only legitimate reason to pull a niqabi off the road is for none other than racial profiling.
People who wear niqab are perfect drivers who never need to be pulled over for any legitimate reason?
they can have equally portable machines to check for fingerprints when they're stop you to check license and registration!
I don't know about your country, but mine does not keep a nation wide database of everybody's fingerprints to check against their names and it would cost quite a bit to impliment such a system. How would you justify the expense of doing that? Just because of a tiny percentage as you put it.
Try to show the same concerns when trillions are spent on useless wars!
False implied accusation. I do show more concern for time, money, and lives spent on pointless wars. I opposed the war in Afghanistan from the start (we were never in Iraq).
are these not considered masks or must they come in cloth form for you to object to them?
As has been pointed out, helmets must be taken off when an officer requests it. Ski mask, motorcycle helmet, muslim face covering, whatever. All should be treated equally. No special treatment based on religion.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 07-13-2011 at 06:22 PM.
If a police officer pulls me over for speeding or whatever and asks for my license and registration, and I'm wearing a ski mask, she's quite likely to demand I remove the mask so she can check my face against the photo on the license. This is a perfectly legitimate request and I would not object to taking the mask off, even if it was really cold.
They could also be thumb printed if not a female officer, when I sat for my license exams they finger printed us every time we took a break of an allotted 40 min break for a 9 hour exam surely the same people who come up with stupid laws like that and other stupid laws of sorts can come up with similar laws for traffic!
People who wear niqab are perfect drivers who never need to be pulled over for any legitimate reason?
When you run your double blind trial let me know of the results, I don't enjoy your brand of rhetoric otherwise!
I don't know about your country, but mine does not keep a nation wide database of everybody's fingerprints to check against their names and it would cost quite a bit to impliment such a system. How would you justify the expense of doing that? Just because of a tiny percentage as you put it.
It wouldn't cost nearly as much as you're making it out to be to have officers have that kind of very cheap technology. They already scan everything else into their portable computer, this would be a small app to implement and it would make things alot safer against actual criminals who have far serious violations than not yielding at a stop sign or just simply looking the wrong way to a beer chugging pork skin binging red necker!
False implied accusation. I do show more concern for time, money, and lives spent on pointless wars. I opposed the war in Afghanistan from the start (we were never in Iraq).
Your opposition is taken into serious considerations as are your objections here!
As has been pointed out, helmets must be taken off when an officer requests it. Ski mask, motorcycle helmet, muslim face covering, whatever. All should be treated equally. No special treatment based on religion.
Muslims indeed receive alot of special treatments don't they? It is amazing how slow moving laws are in a country like france yet a face ban to be imposed against less than one percent of the population seems to unite those bigots as a soccer game would!
best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
It doesnt matter what you wear, the niqaab or helmet we would have to show our faces for the sake of security reasons , but also should be done in the appropriate and respectful manner. It is simple men should check the men and women check the women, all rights are then given to every individual hopefully and its more decent. So if a guy in a helmet doesnt care who he is checked by thats his own business and his decision and if a muslim women doesnt want to be checked by a man thats her right and her decision, so if these are put in place all rights are given insha'Allaah and God willingly all are at peace.
"Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), Al-Hayyul-Qayyum (the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists).".."[Al Qur'aan 3:2]
I have already presented a perfectly legitimate solution for when said motorists are stopped for whatever reason 'minor' or 'major' or concocted by bigots!
As I recall you said "Let's face it, the only legitimate reason to pull a niqabi off the road is for none other than racial profiling."
So dangerous driving, no insurance, no road tax, careless driving, stolen car, hit and run ...... none of these is a reason to pull a niqabi off the road.
As I recall you said "Let's face it, the only legitimate reason to pull a niqabi off the road is for none other than racial profiling."
So dangerous driving, no insurance, no road tax, careless driving, stolen car, hit and run ...... none of these is a reason to pull a niqabi off the road.
'dangerous driving' and 'careless driving' Really? one case that can't be supported by an independent source is your claim to rage? go find someone who enjoys your brand c USDA! A problem was posed and a solution was offered.. anything else deal with it on your own private time with like minded gits!
best,
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
'dangerous driving' and 'careless driving' Really? one case that can't be supported by an independent source is your claim to rage? go find someone who enjoys your brand c USDA! A problem was posed and a solution was offered.. anything else deal with it on your own private time with like minded gits!
best,
I am not the one who says that niqabi should enjoy immunity from the law -you are.
Perhaps you meant to say "this niqabi" but in that case do not blame me for your imprecision.
And who says the charge was not supported by independent witness. Certainly her lies regarding the officers behaviour were caught on tape. So it was quite probable that the offence was as well since no mention was made of it by her lawyer.
I am not the one who says that niqabi should enjoy immunity from the law -you are.
I have said no such thing, you've a reading and a comprehension impediment!
Perhaps you meant to say "this niqabi" but in that case do not blame me for your imprecision.
lol, are you for real?
d who says the charge was not supported by independent witness. Certainly her lies regarding the officers behaviour were caught on tape. So it was quite probable that the offence was as well since no mention was made of it by her lawyer.
laws aren't amended because of ONE individual, the whole world would fall into chaos. It is clearly obvious the almost rabid drive to single out Niqabis who otherwise make less than 1% of any western and many so-called Islamic countries!~
Lawyers don't make habit of correcting the active creation, shaping, manufacturing, filtering and reinterpretation of your corporate media outlets..
I don't make habit of acquaintance with gits so pretty pls take a hike or must we wait until Ramadan for the forum powers that be to rid us of your ilk?
Last edited by جوري; 07-15-2011 at 12:36 AM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Australia is an Aborigine-oppressed, British convict bigot-ruled zionist country, so what do you expect? Muslims should not live there. The Qaran states that you should not live amongst the enemies of Islam. It's a great country scenery wise and the Aborigines are down to earth and at one with the place. But the colonials are just your typical low class British uptight intolerant bigoted scum.
Australia is an Aborigine-oppressed, British convict bigot-ruled zionist country, so what do you expect? Muslims should not live there. The Qaran states that you should not live amongst the enemies of Islam. It's a great country scenery wise and the Aborigines are down to earth and at one with the place. But the colonials are just your typical low class British uptight intolerant bigoted scum.
There appears to be a difference of opinion regarding the application of applying laws to Muslimah who wear Niqib. There is no reason for this discussion to become personal.
If you have an opinion post it and move on. Don't make this thread an excuse for your dislike of one another. Make a thread that you can argue back and forth about nothing.
It gets old viewing the same empty posts about nothing of substance from thread to thread.
Make an intelligent observation and re-post to clarify your position and move on...
Why in the world does the forum even have moderators.
Lā ilāha illā-llāhu waḥdahu lā sharīka lahu lahu-l-mulku
Wa lahu-l-hamdu yuḥyi Wa yumītu Wa huwa ḥayyu-llā yamūtu abadan abada
ḏū-l-jalāli wa-l-ikrām, biyadihi-l-khayr
wa huwa ‘alā kulli Shay’in qadīr.
I have said no such thing, you've a reading and a comprehension impediment!
Actually you did say that, You used the words "a niqabi", a is what grammarians call an indefinite article and refers to any of a class of things thus "a boy" does not refer to a specfic boy but any boy, and SIMILARLY "a niqabi" refers not to this specific niqabi but to any niqabi.
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
lol, are you for real?
I checked and to the best of the evidence I do exist and can therefore (to the best of my belief) be considered real.
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
]laws aren't amended because of ONE individual, the whole world would fall into chaos. It is clearly obvious the almost rabid drive to single out Niqabis who otherwise make less than 1% of any western and many so-called Islamic countries!~
Lawyers don't make habit of correcting the active creation, shaping, manufacturing, filtering and reinterpretation of your corporate media outlets..
No, but in a case where there is no evidence of wrongdoing they can say "Where is the evidence?" and since the cop was driving a VIDEO car, one where the offenders are filmed committing their offences this would be the first thing he asked as being pulled over for no offence would be clear evidence of malfeasance and an immediate walk for the client, we know the cop was driving a video car because the niqabi was shown to be a liar by the videotape from the car.
format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
I don't make habit of acquaintance with gits so pretty pls take a hike or must we wait until Ramadan for the forum powers that be to rid us of your ilk?
Do not worry, I have neither the intention or desire to make your acquaintance.
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