By Emily Buchanan BBC world affairs correspondent Saudi women will be served only by female staff in lingerie shops Continue reading the main storyRelated Stories
A law allowing only women to work in lingerie shops in Saudi Arabia is coming into force.
Campaigners hope this will end decades of awkwardness in the Islamic kingdom where women have always been served by male shop assistants.
The heated issue of the total lack of female shop workers in Saudi Arabia has simmered for years.
Many Saudi women say they have felt particularly uncomfortable buying their lingerie from men.
Female campaigners recently increased the pressure for change through a Facebook campaign and a boycott of lingerie stores.
Now King Abdullah's royal decree finally comes into effect, banning male staff from selling female underwear.
"It's about time, it's been a long struggle and the authorities have finally come to their senses," says Radio Jeddah journalist Samar Fatany.
She says she, and any woman who could afford to, would often shop abroad rather than face the embarrassment of giving her underwear size over the counter to a man.
The campaign has gained extra momentum from the increasing number of young women who want to enter the workplace.
The Saudi women who can work are usually the educated elite who do professional jobs in medicine or government.
The new law could potentially create up to 40,000 jobs for ordinary Saudi women who have hitherto had little or no access to employment.
But it also means that male clerks, most of whom are foreign workers, will be out of a job.
It is not far short of a social revolution being pushed through in the teeth of fierce opposition from the kingdom's top clerics.
They do not want to see an increase in the number of women working outside the home.
The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".
"There is already a growing tension between liberals and the religious conservatives in the country and this issue could provoke opposition from the religious police," says Abeer Mishkhas is a columnist for the Saudi paper Asharq al-Awsat.
The Ministry of Labour will be posting observers in shopping centres to make sure the new shop assistants do not get harassed in their first weeks of work.
The ban on male staff in lingerie departments is due to be extended to cosmetics shops from July.
No actually provided proof from Sunnah or Quran about women forbidden to work outside medicine, education blah blah! Zaria! You managed to helped yourself, oh I work in medicine, so I am okay but sisters that work else where are not okay?
You are ALL so bias. I work outside medicine, education etc, and I will continue to do so!
btw there are a lot of women that are begging in the street of Saudi Arabia! IF they allow them to apply these jobs, it may help a lot of family out of poverty!
Urgh I hate this forum so much!
Assalamu-alaikum sister,
Please calm down.
It truly is not my intention to insult or disparage anyone here - so I apologise if it seems that way.
What I have stated is in line with the rulings of many muftis (as has been posted by brother 'Abd-al Latif ) - its not just a personal opinion.
Also, no one has said it is 'haraam' to work in other fields.
It is simply advised that as far as is possible - women should not seek employment in these sorts of fields (and there is wisdom behind this.....)
And I do realise that many women have no option but to work - out of pure necessity......that they are somewhat forced to go out and work alongside men - to put a plate of food on the table each day.
Hence my second post:
^ I just want to add to the above,
that if a woman is working out of necessity (i.e she does not have a husband/ mahram to support her; to feed her kids; etc) - then, Alhamdulillah - this is fine.....that she goes out to work, observing full hijab and doing her best to limit her interaction between the sexes.
I do not wish to generalise to all women, and I realise that everyone faces their own challenges in life.
My point to this is simply, that we should not be ENCOURAGING women to work in these fields - as if she is entitled to do so.
At the end of the day - we should not forget our primary roles and duties in life.
Salaam
However: if employment is not out of necessity (i.e a women has a husband/ mahram that is supporting her) and not out of serving a vital need in the community (where it is preferably performed by a female).......then I ask: why are we leaving the safety of our homes, our roles as full-time wives and mums to go out and work?
So that we feel 'liberated'?
If only we can remember: a womens most important responsibilty is towards her husband and family.
Everything else takes 2nd place to this.
(And this applies to myself as well, (if i find myself in marriage one day, insha Allah) - even though i am in a 'nurturing' field).
Give me proof where Islam says women are banned from owning her own business, becoming a cleaners or becoming a scientists! Btw just like some men are not cut out to teachers, some women are also not cut out to be teachers either!
Some are have the skills and intelligence to scientist, some want to own their extra income and feel they are not capable of being a teacher, doctor etc BUT they are able to work as cleaner! Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell them they shouldn’t?
My point is women are already banned to have certain jobs like military, judges and leader of a country in Islam! BUT they are not banned to becoming scientists, business women, cleaners or any other job outside Education and Medicine! Why dont you ask a scholar whether a woman can become a Scientists or cleaner?
You're stilling missing my point.
Is there a need for them there?
The discussing of leaders in Islam has already preceded once before. It is Islamically forbidden for women to be leaders in such a position.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
What Sis zaria means is that women shouldn't be out of their home without protector, a women can indeed start a own clinic or company, but best is not far from home. And she needs to OBEY yes OBEY her husband. For a wife- jannah lays under your husbands feet. If her husband is right, she needs to obey him.
And now regarding to jobs, women aren't supposed to work in areas with mixed genders. this is simply to prevent fitnah as shaytaan is always the one who can ruin it. for a women its best to start her business at home or atleast close by. to prevent going out alone, or mixing with other genders.
http://www.youtube.com/user/robinb4life?feature=mhee
I will not calm down until I will put one cheek of a tyrant on the ground and the other under my feet, and for the poor and weak, I will put my cheek on the ground. - Umar ibn khattab(Ra)
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
I hope everybody had a kit-kat, a well deserved break and is now ready to turn over a new leaf and start fresh. The thread has been re-opened upon the thread starter's request.
In case any sisters feel a rush of excitement upon seeing this thread re-opened, they should prick themselves with the pins from their hijab to keep calm and brothers should borrow the hijab pins from their (blood) sisters if they feel the same. I've got an impatient finger hovering over the big, scary red button for anyone who turns sour.
Keep calm people and behave yourselves!
Last edited by 'Abd-al Latif; 01-08-2012 at 07:53 PM.
And verily for everything that a slave loses there is a substitute, but the one who loses Allah will never find anything to replace Him.” [Related by Ibn al-Qayyim in ad-Dâ' wad-Dawâ Fasl 49]
What Sis zaria means is that women shouldn't be out of their home without protector, a women can indeed start a own clinic or company, but best is not far from home. And she needs to OBEY yes OBEY her husband. For a wife- jannah lays under your husbands feet. If her husband is right, she needs to obey him.
And now regarding to jobs, women aren't supposed to work in areas with mixed genders. this is simply to prevent fitnah as shaytaan is always the one who can ruin it. for a women its best to start her business at home or atleast close by. to prevent going out alone, or mixing with other genders.
The workplace has gone safer, depending on where you live. So a women can open her own business without worrying about being in danger. It is not about how far you have to travel. It is about the method of transport. Using a car is much safer than using public transport which is used by men and women (of course, this is debatable). Besides, both men and women can be in danger and this risk will always exist.
All jobs, in some ways require to communicate with the opposite gender. I have female clients calling me and I simply have to address their concerns. As long as you get the job done and do not have any sort of relationship with the opposite gender, then your fine.
Overall, what your suggesting is not practicable now. What we need is practicable solutions.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Yes, we need female business leaders to deal with female customers.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
The workplace has gone safer, depending on where you live. So a women can open her own business without worrying about being in danger. It is not about how far you have to travel. It is about the method of transport. Using a car is much safer than using public transport which is used by men and women (of course, this is debatable). Besides, both men and women can be in danger and this risk will always exist.
All jobs, in some ways require to communicate with the opposite gender. I have female clients calling me and I simply have to address their concerns. As long as you get the job done and do not have any sort of relationship with the opposite gender, then your fine.
Overall, what your suggesting is not practicable now. What we need is practicable solutions.
I dont think its only about female's safety. Even though work environemnts are safer, is shaytan safer and less devilish too? The point is you cant work in mixed environment as a female or as a male. So one should back out, and that is females, since males are by nature made to work and earn in society.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
Give me proof where Islam says women are banned from owning her own business, becoming a cleaners or becoming a scientists! Btw just like some men are not cut out to teachers, some women are also not cut out to be teachers either!
Some are have the skills and intelligence to scientist, some want to own their extra income and feel they are not capable of being a teacher, doctor etc BUT they are able to work as cleaner! Who the hell are you or anyone else to tell them they shouldn’t?
I agree.
We need female business leaders to deal with female customers and even boost the economy.
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
It is simply advised that as far as is possible - women should not seek employment in these sorts of fields (and there is wisdom behind this.....)
What wisdom are we speaking of here? Which fields are you referring to?
However: if employment is not out of necessity (i.e a women has a husband/ mahram that is supporting her) and not out of serving a vital need in the community (where it is preferably performed by a female).......then I ask: why are we leaving the safety of our homes, our roles as full-time wives and mums to go out and work?
In the UK, it is generally safe to leave your house.
[/QUOTE]
So that we feel 'liberated'?[/QUOTE]
This has nothing to do with being liberated. For some women, sitting at home all day is boring. If they have useful skills, then why not use it? Many Muslim women are using their talents to help their community.
Overall, yes married women should look after their husband and children. If they have the time, if it is safe to travel and the husband grants permission, then they should be allowed to work.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
I dont think its only about female's safety. Even though work environemnts are safer, is shaytan safer and less devilish too? The point is you cant work in mixed environment as a female or as a male. So one should back out, and that is females, since males are by nature made to work and earn in society.
Salaam,
Again what you are suggesting is impracticable. There are going to be instances when men and women will mix, like in hospitals. For example, I was working at a law firm and we needed a specialist to help our client. The only specialist that was available happened to be a women. My firm needed her services and so we asked her to write a report. There was no male specialist available that would be able to help our firm. We cannot abandon our client, otherwise...we'll get sued.
Islam has a dress code. As long as men and women cover up, that's fine. If they are not covered up, lower your gaze.
I'm aware the Shaytan is finding ways to make people commit sins. He will find new ways to achieve this. This will always be the case, even in an Islamic state. That does not mean women are not allowed to work. Who is going to serve female customers?
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Again what you are suggesting is impracticable. There are going to be instances when men and women will mix, like in hospitals. For example, I was working at a law firm and we needed a specialist to help our client. The only specialist that was available happened to be a women. My firm needed her services and so we asked her to write a report. There was no male specialist available that would be able to help our firm. We cannot abandon our client, otherwise...we'll get sued.
Well that is valid and I understand that but such cases are exactly the reason why we should make it more practical and have more male specialists so that such mixing can be prevented in the future by providing specialist services of same gender. :S
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
Well that is valid and I understand that but such cases are exactly the reason why we should make it more practical and have more male specialists so that such mixing can be prevented in the future by providing specialist services of same gender. :S
How? Are you going to launch a campaign to persuade for men to specialise in particular areas? What if this does not work?
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
How? Are you going to launch a campaign to persuade for men to specialise in particular areas? What if this does not work?
Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
In Islam the burden of providing falls upon the man so I think when there's not enough jobs to go round for everyone, men should be given priority over women for jobs, unless the woman is happy to forfeit her right to be provided for
Because the man requires the job/salary in order to get married so he can provide for his family, but what would the woman require the salary for? is she required to support a family financially? that's the logic behind it.
And give all the jobs that involve interacting with females on a regular basis to women specifically. Make those jobs not even available to men.
Also there could be an entire sector for female jobs such as nurse, beautician, and other sectors that were specifically for men. But this would involve separating jobs into two categories, male jobs and female jobs, and someone would have to define which is which lol.
there's my whacky theory
Last edited by Salahudeen; 01-08-2012 at 11:04 PM.
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.
Why wont it work? Financial incentives, economy is down, everyone is willing to do anything as long there is $ in it. Are there any jobs in the world that men dont do? Except pregnancy. ooh, even that was done by a man.
Salaam,
Do you think most men will be eager to work as a midwife?
I never said it will not work. I said, what if it does not work. For example, you can launch a campaign persuading men to work in health care. However, this may not work because some men would rather work in engineering or accounts. There is no guarantee this will work for several reasons such as failing to pass medical exams, not having enough experience, to expensive or other areas may be seen as more profitable and stable.
I'm just saying, you have no alternative plan. If it does work, great. Now you got to make men specialise in other areas to like law, accounts, actuarial, insurance, financial advise, fashion, marketing, administration, education and I can go on forever.
The point is there will always be some areas dominated by a particular gender. As long as this exists, free mixing at the workplace will exist. Some areas, free mixing will be required more than others.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Taking care of the husband and kids is all well and good but what if the woman is not married and her parents are in perfect health? Both working and the daughter has finished her education.
Yeah, my theory could only apply to married individuals i.e a married woman applies for a job, and a non married man applies for the job, priority is given to the man.
Or a complete segregation of jobs based on gender, i.e only women can apply to be nurses and other female jobs, and only men can apply to join the army and other male jobs. That could work maybe
“Who said that guidance requires there to be someone accompanying you"
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Saudi women will be served only by female staff in lingerie shops
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i.e a married woman applies for a job, and a non married man applies for the job, priority is given to the man. 
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