Homosexuals and homosexuality are natural and created by God, thus permissible within Islam, a discussion concluded here Thursday.
Moderate Muslim scholars said there were no reasons to reject homosexuals under Islam, and that the condemnation of homosexuals and homosexuality by mainstream ulema and many other Muslims was based on narrow-minded interpretations of Islamic teachings.
Siti Musdah Mulia of the Indonesia Conference of Religions and Peace cited the Koran's al-Hujurat (49:3) that one of the blessings for human beings was that all men and women are equal, regardless of ethnicity, wealth, social positions or even sexual orientation.
"There is no difference between lesbians and nonlesbians. In the eyes of God, people are valued based on their piety," she told the discussion organized by nongovernmental organization Arus Pelangi.
"And talking about piety is God's prerogative to judge," she added.
"The essence of the religion (Islam) is to humanize humans, respect and dignify them."
Musdah said homosexuality was from God and should be considered natural, adding it was not pushed only by passion. Mata Air magazine managing editor Soffa Ihsan said Islam's acknowledgement of heterogeneity should also include homosexuality.
He said Muslims needed to continue to embrace ijtihad (the process of making a legal decision by independent interpretation of the Koran and the Sunnah) to avoid being stuck in the old paradigm without developing open-minded interpretations.
Another speaker at the discussion, Nurofiah of the Nahdlatul Ulama (NU), said the dominant notion of heterogeneity was a social construction, leading to the banning of homosexuality by the majority.
"Like gender bias or patriarchy, heterogeneity bias is socially constructed. It would be totally different if the ruling group was homosexuals," she said.
Other speakers said the magnificence of Islam was that it could be blended and integrated into local culture.
"In fact, Indonesia's culture has accepted homosexuality. The homosexual group in Bugis-Makassar tradition called Bissu is respected and given a high position in the kingdom.
"Also, we know that in Ponorogo (East Java) there has been acknowledgement of homosexuality," Arus Pelangi head Rido Triawan said.
Condemnation of homosexuality was voiced by two conservative Muslim groups, the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) and Hizbut Thahir Indonesia (HTI).
"It's a sin. We will not consider homosexuals an enemy, but we will make them aware that what they are doing is wrong," MUI deputy chairman Amir Syarifuddin said.
Rokhmat, of the hardline HTI, several times asked homosexual participants in attendance to repent and force themselves to gradually return to the right path.
WHO ARE THESE IDIOTS???
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
It was in rhetoric .. I find all the above appalling and off putting except for their governmental issues if they're recognized by a secular govt. it is fine so long as it isn't imposed on all other establishments religious or educational & especially not family units..
No one is under pressure to reveal anything, this is an unusual conjectural scenario ..
Salaam,
There is always going to be some form of pressure. Many students experience these forms of pressure. If they don't reveal it, they will be seen as being strange and some people will make fun of them. This usually takes place at school/college/university. Not everyone is emotionally strong and cope with taunts from other people.
People now a days are only too happy to reveal their sexual orientation it is en vogue..
That is a broad generalisation. Not all people are comfortable in revealing their sexual orientation, especially if they are homosexual or even asexual.
I doubt most gay Muslims will tell their parents that they gay, unless if they are looking for a death wish.
they're not the poor sods everyone is making them out to be, it is even a common reoccurring theme in media I keep waiting for them to integrate it into kids programming the way they promote pre marital sex and runaway hooker clothing to 8 year olds...
I don't think people are making homosexuals to be the victims. Of course, homosexuals have been victims of beatings and verbal abuse. So yes, they can be victims but not all of them.
Not all homosexuals attend gay pride and flaunt their sexuality. Some keep it a secret.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Since you asked me....
I don't think it should be a problem for people to walk down the street holding the hand of their wife or husband. I think they should be allowed to have romantic diners in restaurants. I don't think they should be excluded from tax breaks or insurance benefits or other spousal benefits (though I'm actually not sure such things should exist either). I don't think they should have to hide that somebody is their significant other, their husband, their soul mate, whatever. I'm not to keen on watching them kiss in public, though I don't feel they should be killed, jailed, or fined for it. I feel the same way about all of this with homosexuals as with heterosexuals.
Some Arab men hold hands in Arab countries, though culturally that is not considered bizarre. Public display of affection is completely forbidden in Islam. Find a room, please. Then again, I have never seen homosexuals kiss in public. It is mostly straight people, even Muslims.
As for restaurants, who cares. Just go there to eat. You don't have to have a table specifically made for homosexuals and a table specifically made for heterosexuals.
As for financial benefits, they should only be available to men and women that are married, since they have children and will need all the support that they can get. You may argue, gay people can adopt children (allowing them access to financial benefits), but I'm against this.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
It was in rhetoric .. I find all the above appalling and off putting except for their governmental issues if they're recognized by a secular govt. it is fine so long as it isn't imposed on all other establishments religious or educational & especially not family units..
Salaam,
I take a serious issue with allowing gay people to adopt. At a minimum, gay people should not allowed to suffer physical or verbal abuse. That is all. They don't need financial benefits. Religious establishments are forced to accept homosexual practices and this is ought not to be tolerated.
I was looking at myself talking to myself and I realized this conversation...I was having with myself looking at myself was a conversation with myself that I needed to have with myself.
Someone said to the Prophet, "Pray to God against the idolaters and curse them." The Prophet replied, "I have been sent to show mercy and have not been sent to curse." (Muslim)
I doubt most gay Muslims will tell their parents that they gay, unless if they are looking for a death wish.
If God forbid I had a kid who was under that impression I think I'd be more heartbroken than going psycho on him although I can see where others might totally flip and lose it..
As for financial benefits, they should only be available to men and women that are married, since they have children and will need all the support that they can get.
Should this be restricted to heterosexual couples with children then? Would you exclude unmarried couples with children? If your issue is supporting children, then why look at this as hetero vs homosexual and not child rearing and non child rearing couples?
Do you think homosexual couples should get the same access heterosexual couples get with insurance and government benefits, in alimony proceedings following separation, in visitation rights in hospitals, in the default rules for wills and estates, in other matters where spouses have rights? Benefits and rights having nothing to do with children I mean.
Last edited by Pygoscelis; 03-13-2012 at 07:44 PM.
To be fair, Ahmadinejad was joking. He was not treated with respect when a university invited him for a talk. He was joking when he said Iran has no homosexuals, I don't think he took some of the questions seriously. In another interview, he said acknowledged gay people exist in Iran.
I think most hate comes from men. Most heterosexual men find it gross to have sex with another man. Some guys get paranoid and start to think everyone gay man will fall for them and will try to have sex with them. Sounds like a case of narcissism. They also assume most gay men will engage in anal sex, but this is not true.
Salaam,
There is a presumption that everyone is straight. This presumption is rebutted when someone admits that they are homosexual.
Sometimes, people suspect other people are homosexual, probably due to the way they behave. In this circumstances, should they lie about their sexual orientation or tell the truth when confronted?
Of course, well all know, homosexuality is not the sin unless if people were to put it into practice.
there is a reason why many females make good friends with gays.
i know "hijabi sisters" who hang out with openly gay guys cuz well "they are soo nice and soo cute." And it is people like this who put me off away from Islam as organized religion. Hypocrite ppl.
Help me to escape from this existence
I yearn for an answer... can you help me?
I'm drowning in a sea of abused visions and shattered dreams
In somnolent illusion... I'm paralyzed
isnt it one among the signs of qiyamah that homosexual imams will lead prayers and homosexual muslims will pray behind him and it will be considered normal... ?
the more and more am I becoming convinced that the of reckoning is close!
So desperate to be accepted by the West that they'll make anything halal.
Absolutely and they make halal haram too e.g. they impose state enforced age restrictions in marriage to conform with the cultural Marxist West. I do not know why South and South East Asia is so sycophantic and worshipping of the West. Why do they have no self respect?
Absolutely and they make halal haram too e.g. they impose state enforced age restrictions in marriage to conform with the cultural Marxist West. I do not know why South and South East Asia is so sycophantic and worshipping of the West. Why do they have no self respect?
Maybe, for example that Indonesia, had in the past, colonized for 350 years by the dutch?
And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?
Maybe, for example that Indonesia, had in the past, colonized for 350 years by the dutch?
And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?
Been brainwashed until now...
You have a point but if the Dutch had so much influence why are the Indonesians not Christians? I believe the manipulation is quite modern and has to do with "aid" (bribes) and pressure from the West.
The West is advanced because they are warmongers following the dark path. Why would the Indonesians want to follow when they live in a tropical paradise? I suppose money and materialism is the reason they are destroying their country.
The South Asians have been brainwashed by the British Raj and independence was in name only I suspect.
And most of the modern curriculum in schools giving the image that the west are symbol of advanced society and technology?
Math and science are not "western" methods and their resulting technology is not a "western" endeavour.
Concerning math, the Kitab Al-Jabr which introduces algebra -- next to what the Greek already mastered, i.e. arithmetic and geometry -- has an Islamic origin. Same for the Kitab fi isti'mal al-adad al-hindi ("About the hindu numerals"). Concerning science, i.e. statements that are backed by repeatedly and experimentally verifying a claim for counterexamples, they just harness the laws of nature, which are obviously not tied to one particular culture.
Progress came more often from particular areas during past time periods, but I wonder why that would be an issue, since the laws of nature are the same everywhere on earth? Furthermore, we don't know from what area progress will come next, especially because people tend to collaborate nowadays over the internet. So, the next area will probably be the internet! ;-)
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