I have often wondered if the so-called 'Arab Spring' that has thus far progressed from Tunisia>Egypt>Libya>Syria was not as it seemed to be in the best interest of the Muslim populations of those countries. I thought that it was all just the machinations of the West to destabilize and defang each of these countries by removing their established governments however unjust they may have been. The article in the link provided and the brief quote below makes one wonder who, if anyone, can be trusted today. My opinion is that Iran stands alone in opposition to complete global hegemony and the establishment of the New World Order. It goes counter to what most Muslims believe, but could there be truth in the article that presumes that the Saudi, Israeli and American governments and ruling elite all have the same agenda?
"The Muslim Brotherhood is a Tool of US-Israeli-Saudi Machinations.
The Muslim Brotherhood is often portrayed as being anti-Israeli, anti-US, and anti-West in general. In reality they are a creation of and have been ever since servants of expanding Wall Street and London's corporate-financier hegemony across the Islamic World. In Hersh's 2007 report, it is made clear that the Brotherhood was the tool of choice of the US, Israeli, and Saudi elite - with the US and Saudis reported as even then directly funding and backing them - backing that continues to this day, not only in Syria, but in Egypt as well.
The Muslim Brotherhood's rank and file surely believe in what they are being told by their leaders, but their leaders are professional demagogues peddling anti-Israeli and anti-American rhetoric solely for public consumption while being fully complicit in the West's designs against the Arab World." http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/20...r-prequel.html
The article in the link provided and the brief quote below makes one wonder who, if anyone, can be trusted today
This conspiracy theory flatly contradicts the one currently running in the thread on Egypt, where the Muslim Brothers are still the heroes.
What's the point of this? You can draw wholly different conclusions from the same set of events. You can reverse your theory completely, if events don't turn out the way you expect.
The issue of the NWO is global domination by only a few 'elite' people to exploit the natural resources of the world in an accelerating manner of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. One can speculate where this development is headed, but for the masses of humanity I venture to say that it will be less than good. The point of my post is for people to consider the possibility that things may in actuality be quite different from how they appear. Did you read the article "Syrian War: The Prequel"?
I disagree with your first post akhi- I wouldn't pay much attention to the subsequent two either none of them are embroiled in this to have a clue!
I'll expand on the topic tomorrow but in fact the counter revolutions that are going on now in Egypt and Tunisia are indeed western/ Safavid (Persian) related and I'll support that for you tomorrow the only problem is many of my sources are written in Arabic!
Let's put it this way even if the 'Arab springs' were western initiated they weren't western perpetuated I. E the folks on the streets were genuine - what happened later ergo Lieberman/ suwaris/ McCain and funded by money from emirates and manifests in the oh so concerned 'opposition' quite a different story - the Persians indeed have been working and according to my readings as far back as 1973 where sheikh Qaradwi wanted to bridge the gap so he enabled many Shiites to come in foster their agenda write books in fact all the nonsens in Egypt which I have often wondered where it manifest from in an Islamic country who came 300 yrs under Shiites rule unfazed and believe me when I say they still want that dream but Egypt's identity has always been Sunni and Islamic!
Now, mursi has to work with what he inherited and for a country under military rule for so long he hasn't made himself charming to either the army or police force least of which after removing many of them as well he should any new president has a right to his own cabinet members!
There was going to be a coup last week but it was foiled - I assure you the west and especially now after mursi's position with Khalid mishaal in Gaza they're looking to have him dead, removed couped against the same style as Chavez - but they don't want an Islamic Egypt even though the current conditional model is quite secular and 72 model with a few tweaks the trouble on the ground should give you a clue to the depth of their fear and hatred!
In closure I apologize for any iPhone funnies my computer is down - tomorrow ill try to link you with done reading
Assalamu alaikum, ukhti. I have a contrarian way of thinking and often try to look at things from a point of view opposite that of the majority of people. My goal is to arrive at deeper understanding of what is truly going on in the world. I look forward to reading what you have to write as I know you are knowledgeable and not shy to point out where you disagree.
At the end if the day it's indeed an ideological war!
And since the fall of communism Islam is the only ideology left to dismantle and unfortunately the most brilliant tool of satan is media!
The hatred that folks have in Egypt for the so called Islamists be they 'salafis' or brotherhood is staggering and the agenda to down with Islam is so deeply rooted in these so called Muslim majority nations money is being poured into Egypt from Iran Israel emirates and the U.S to make this counter revolutions successful its their swan song basically and after the Israeli humiliation in Gaza and especially after Gaza received recognition in the Y.N they're really out with vengeance against Muslims - Muslim brotherhood especially has spent most of its existence behind bars as political prisoners - the fact that they're out of prison to a presidency really doesn't appeal to anyone - last week there was going to be a coup meant to have el baradi America's man in the ME solely responsible for the death of 1.5 million Iraqis take power I'll tell you how that was foiled but it cost 6 Muslim brotherhood members their lives - Iran's man is saba7i very heavily funded by them and they too wanna exact their revenge as they're fast losing Syria but they're working on Bahrain and Kuwait bit sure if you know what's going on there- all the tribulations mentioned in ahadiths well they're happening now one by one
I think we're headed toward a WWIII - today British & American fleets are ready to enter Syria under the guise of saving the syrians from chemical weapons.. that is of course after they watched gayly the death of 40,000, 250,000 political prisoners can also be presumed dead, and the rest refugees.. they were sad and concerned then but now that the Sunni army is about to get Bashar they're oh so concerned that he'll use chemical weapons- any excuse to make sure an Islamic sunni majority don't take rule. This won't bode well though without having Turkey enter which is allied with NATO and on Bashar's side Iran and Russian involvement possibly Korea..
With American all time war fatigue and where they can barely get out of Afghanistan and Iraq (although they did manage to divide it to three groups put a puppet shiite in charge) they hadn't counted on the Kurdish problem against their boy al malki.. so much greed and lust for blood it is disgusting
Did you read the article "Syrian War: The Prequel"?
I did read the article. I find it difficult to understand how anyone could find it convincing. Any article that quotes the ludicrous Webster Tarpley as a source immediately sets the alarm bells ringing.
Why do we need these wild theories at all? The world is completely intelligble without them. If we are to disbelieve the declared motives of practically all the participants in world affairs, then surely we need something better than mere conjecture?
The problem with the idea of a mysterious elite is not they explain too little, but they explain far, far too much. Anything and anyone can be made to fit. Any prediction can be made – and quietly reinvented if it turns out to be inaccurate.
The Syrian rebels are the good guys - or are they really the bad guys? Bin Laden is a Muslim hero - or is he a CIA agent? Morsi is a devout freedom fighter - but then again, maybe he’s a western stooge? If the same theory can be used to make such wildly different analyses, what value does it have?
Your fellow conspiracist (who has made yet more of her customary deranged contributions to this thread) is using the same ‘secret elite’ theory to come up with totally opposite conclusions. In her case, everything must support her favourite Sunni imperialism viewpoint, so everything must fit that prejudice. In your case, I don’t see an agenda, but it’s still wild thinking.
Of course this is an anonymous forum but you do get an impression of people from what they write. When talking about genetics/evolution you come across as a fair-minded, moderate, reasonable guy. We may disagree, but I understand where you’re coming from and you’re never aggressive. That’s why it’s so disappointing that you give this fantasy the time of day.
If it were just speculation maybe it wouldn’t matter. But the ‘secret elite’ theory has a very nasty side to it. In following it, you’re keeping company with a profoundly unattractive range of Neo Nazis and other extreme right wing groups. This theory comes straight out of Nazi anti-semitism, as well as other racist/genocidal polemicists who laid the ground for them. Is that the place you really want to be?
more of her customary deranged contributions to this thread) is
isthat the place you really want to be?
Between adhoms/ smarmy ingratiation to his rational mind and the usual pseudo intellect style bullying what choice have we but to subscribe to your bury your head in the sand approach to the world? Just for the record I don't disagree with him in his alleged conspiracy FACT save to highlight Iran's very heavy involvement!
I don't think the world of the brotherhood but I promise that the alternative will not bode well for the west in a region seething!
In fact the brotherhood really is the middle road whether I agree or not I'd rather them than a western sponsored governance which differs not from the old save for a change of face but what they don't understand is that there's no going back to what was and it's indeed in their best interest to work with the cards they're dealt as the alternative is going to bite hard!
Lucky while we conjecture Whichever style to your dislike it's the folks on the ground making the decisions and defining the terms rendering you as irrelevant as ever!
You can sit and watch more of your turds returning in body bags more of your tax money to zionists your country in economic ruins and write memoirs on the colorful folks you encountered on an Islamic board and how anti Semitic and deranged they're while consulting Webster on the meaning of the term Semite!
question: has Morsi given any of you a reason not to trust him yet?
No?
Good, then trust him... until he slips up - and that, only if Allah exposes him to be a fraud. If Allah doesn't - then trust the man. He's the closest thing to an Emir for the Muslim world at the moment.
The problem with Dr. Musi is that he inherited corruption so deeply rooted that despite his best efforts he's met with so much opposion - any president has the right to choose his own cabinet members with him any association with the brotherhood is met with such vile resistance and yes outside conspiracies to overthrow him every which way you should read about the American ambassador to Egypt Anna Patterson her previous work in Columbia and Pakistan her meeting with el Baradi on dec 2nd and again today and el Baradi admission to using old regime thugs to prevent the Islamists whose agenda is unknown as he put it before you decide if our western pal above has any valid political insights outside the crap he's fed on his evening news which is aimed at audience with a certain intellect as is!
Of course Mursi has our full support and I appreciate that the transition is difficult considering the loyalties of the armed and police forces and foreign tentacles everywhere in the country! We don't expect him o go from 0 to 60 in three seconds question is can he get anywhere at all with all the concession he's making?
Last edited by جوري; 12-09-2012 at 09:50 PM.
Reason: Using iPhone since my computer is down so pls don't complain to me of syntax grammar or punctuations
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The Muslim Brotherhood is often portrayed as being anti-Israeli, anti-US, and anti-West in general. In reality they are a creation of and have been ever since servants of expanding Wall Street and London's corporate-financier hegemony across the Islamic World.
Whilst I disagree with the ‘secret elite’ version of events, I can see why you might question Morsi’s progress so far.
Mubarak was a big ally of the US and had also been an influence for stability in his region. However, to their credit the US administration seemed to recognise fairly early on that it would be so ridiculously ‘undemocratic’ to try and sustain him that even to try would be detrimental. So, they publicly let him go. (Unlike Russia with Assad.) This almost certainly saved the country from the type of civil war that nows engulfs Syria.
The strength of the Muslim Brotherhood was well known beforehand. It was understood that they were well-funded from abroad, well organised, and although not designed to be an electoral machine, they were best placed to benefit from a situation in which all other possible democratic parties had not been allowed to develop freely.
The victory of the Brotherhood in the elections was not a surprise, although it was narrow enough and could easily have gone the other way. If the US wanted to keep the Brotherhood out, their best chance was surely when they had Mubarak and the army on their side. It makes no sense for the US to let him win, see him follow a moderate path, yet then risk all and conspire to remove him again.
In office, Morsi began by being clearly much less radical than the US might have feared. In particular he was astonishingly restrained over the Gaza war. Surely, this was a moment when he should have intervened more strongly. But in practice it’s hard to see he did anything that Mubarak wouldn’t have done.
The US and Israel must have been delighted with him.
Maybe it was because he felt he could now get away with anything in US eyes, that he then made his sudden power grab. But by grabbing all of Mubarak’s power, he has now made himself look like Mubarak.
At the very least, this move was a terrific political blunder. (Which he has more or less admitted by revoking his own power today.) To what extent it was his blunder, or whether he is too much in the pocket of other hardline Brotherhood leaders behind the scenes, he has now reignited all the fires in society.
Personally I think this was, simply, a blunder. But if you wanted to go conspiracy theory on it you could ask, is he destabilising things deliberately? Does he want the excuse to crush all opposition violently right at the start? Or you could go as far as this Paths to Persia theory, and play him as a double agent looking to bring down his own side.
Again incorrect!
The U.S had no choice but to save what they could in a situation that was getting out of hand and there was no putting the wheels in reverse and they tried with such things as pushing their right hand man and CIA agent Omar suliman for vice presidency th ailing old goat already well in his 80's was too slow in bequeathing his kingdom to his much despised son and who had no ties to the army which is the saving grace of most o the predecessors no matter how remote their role- Mubarak himself was a dense cargo plane pilot chosen or his stupidity by Sadat!
So there was nothing the U. S could do at that stage save the little mind games they often play and there's a laundry list oo expansive for me to delve in.
Unlike Syria Egypt has a patriotic army that pointed its tanks at the palace when given h command by Mubarak to aim it at the people also the army is conscript of the people not o in Syria at least as far as the air force is concerned it's composed in its entirety of Alawites!
And there's a famous front page photo of that on most of the already govt. Owned papers. Same ones btw still advocating for Mubarak now!
Lastly because I not wish to labour over frank stupidity - israel has been tooting its own horn for so long with it's incessant threats against Iran and with hopes the U.S would back it up neither of them have the desire to engage in said war and after the hilarious orgasmic moment netyn had at the U.N with his cute far side of the moon toon and where in lieu of the audience being enraptured they had a good laugh both the U.S and the colonial settler wanted someone to hand them the ladder own from the tree so to speak - they'd gone in an area neiher could get out of with some semblance of diplomacy they were extremely vexed by their defeat in Gaza as well Khalid mishaal getting an hour time to speak on Egyptian TV that their defense guy Ehaud resigned and Palestine gained recognition and Hamas more popularity in the west bank while netynyahoo is out licking his wounds so frankly nothing went as they planned but you're welcome to put your own spin to make a miserable defeat more palatable
They had no choice but to save what they could in a situation that was getting out of hand!
They had a choice, the same way Russia had a choice with Syria.
if the destruction of Egypt was a US objective, then sticking with Mubarak was the fastest way to achieve it. Plainly if he had stayed in power the country was heading for civil war - the same war we may yet get now, because of Morsi's unnecessary blunder.
Personally, I would give Morsi time, he has shown great pragmatism in office until this mistake. Nevertheless the crisis he faces now is mostly of his own making (or other Brotherhood leaders behind the scenes).
Yes this is a tricky situation, no easy answers or solutions. I really hope Egypt follows an independent path rather than going back to being a western lapdog.
There’s no doubt that western powers are desperately trying to subvert the revolution. They don’t want another Iran, Russia China Cuba Venezuela etc. By that I mean a country that follows an independent course of development free from outside interference. This is called ‘instability’ in western foreign affairs literature. "Stability" on the other hands means maintenance of specific forms of domination and control, and easy access to resources and profits. Hence Mubarak was a beacon of ‘stability’.
More background on the reasons why the US particularly is so disliked (and that’s being mild) in the Middle East.
On why Mubarak was ‘reluctantly’ dumped by the US. Not a new strategy if you read American history, when there favoured friends and ally’s start to lose control and its quite clear he cant put the people in their 'place', they have a tendency to become ‘expendable’ .
On why America didn’t take a more violent line. Current administration tends to prefer subversion and after the disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan doubt the Americans would have appetite to get directly involved in another war in the Middle East. (Though the ground seems to being prepared for the invasion of Syria).
They had a choice, the same way Russia had a choice with Syria.
They didn't have a choice in Egypt anymore than Russia has a choice in Syria..and I have already covered that - America wouldn't have ground forces in Egypt believe me the common man there is so thirsty for American blood it isn't even a matter of being armed at this stage and secondly I have already stated that all Iran or Russia can do for the Bashar regime is supply with arms to be used by Alwaites against a sunni majority. No such problem exists in Egypt every family has a son or two or three in the army they're conscript of the people that even if the top commanders gave the orders the army wouldn't and in fact they were given the order and their tanks turned the wrong way- draw your own conclusions!
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
if the destruction of Egypt was a US objective, then sticking with Mubarak was the fastest way to achieve it. Plainly if he had stayed in power the country was heading for civil war - the same war we may yet get now, because of Morsi's unnecessary blunder.
The U.S is nothing more than a paper tiger if they had the power they'd have completed their mission in Afghanistan where they don't have an organized army but a bunch of rebels in mountains again put things in their proper size!
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Personally, I would give Morsi time, he has shown great pragmatism in office until this mistake. Nevertheless the crisis he faces now is mostly of his own making (or other Brotherhood leaders behind the scenes).
He hasn't made any mistakes save concessions- Nothing that wasn't used by Bush or Gamal Abdul Nasser or not mentioned in the french constitution - in fact if they liked him he wouldn't be having this much trouble now!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
a comment about Syria and Just to add to the above that now at the 11th hour and because the free army has gained so much ground (the sunni army) that is the same one the U.S has listed on its terrorist organization list, they want to go in under the guise of saving the people from chemical weapons. So I think it is rather obvious how the game is being played!
Question is how their smarmy souls can do it without being on the ground and without dragging the entire world into a war because Turkish involvement means NATO involvement And U.S involvement means Russian, North Korea/Iran involvement..
let the players play-- Victory is to the most persevering and most God fearing!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
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