Child Unwell But Parents Did Not Seek Medical Attention

**Hulk** · 04-24-2013

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — A couple serving probation for the 2009 death of their toddler after they turned to prayer instead of a doctor could face new charges now that another son has died.

Herbert and Catherine Schaible belong to a fundamentalist Christian church that believes in faith healing. They lost their 8-month-old son, Brandon, last week after he suffered from diarrhea and breathing problems for at least a week, and stopped eating. Four years ago, another son died from bacterial pneumonia.

Prosecutors said Tuesday that a decision on charges will be made after they get the results of an autopsy.

Catherine Schaible's attorney, Mythri Jayaraman, cautioned against a rush to judgment, and said the couple are good parents deeply distraught over the loss of another child.

"There are way more questions than answers at this point. We haven't seen the autopsy report. We don't know the cause of death of this child," Jayaraman told The Associated Press. "What we do know is Mr. and Mrs. Schaible are distraught, they are grieving, they are tremendously sad about the loss of their most recent baby."

A man who answered the phone at a listing for Herbert Schaible declined to comment and hung up.

A jury convicted the Schaibles of involuntary manslaughter in the January 2009 death of their 2-year-old son, Kent. The boy's symptoms had included coughing, congestion, crankiness and a loss of appetite. His parents said he was eating and drinking until the last day, and they had thought he was getting better.

The Schaibles were sentenced to 10 years' probation.

At a hearing Monday, a judge told the couple they had violated the terms of their probation, noting the Schaibles had told investigators that they prayed to God to make Brandon well instead of seeking medical attention.

"You did that once, and the consequences were tragic," Philadelphia Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said, according to the Philadelphia Daily News.

Prosecutors on Monday sought to have the couple jailed, but Lerner permitted them to remain free because their seven other children had been placed in foster care.

"He feels they are a danger to their children — not to the community, but to their own children," Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore, who prosecuted the couple in 2010, said Tuesday.

Herbert Schaible, 44, and his 43-year-old wife grew up in the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia and have served as teachers there. The church's website has a sermon titled "Healing — From God or Medicine?" that quotes Bible verses purportedly forbidding Christians from visiting doctors or taking medicine.

"It is a definite sin to trust in medical help and pills; and it is real faith to trust on the Name of Jesus for healing," says the message, from last May.

A phone message left with the church on Tuesday was not immediately returned.

The church's pastor said in 2010 that the couple had never received medical care themselves beyond the help of a lay midwife who attends home births.

The Schaibles did take their children for medical checkups as required by their probation, according to Jayaraman, the defense attorney. Jayaraman said that Brandon was checked by a doctor when he was 10 days old, but she did not know whether the child had seen a doctor since.

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."
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**Berries'forest** · 05-01-2013

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

To be fair to Karl and Cosmic, neither of them are saying it is good to kill their children, or that they would do so, or that they should not be punished if they did.

They were implying that it is a-okay for anyone to just do anything and everything they want with their children. Since they are their property and even killing them wouldn't be good enough for parents to be dubbed as murderers. And maybe you missed the post but CosmicPathos made it quite clear that parents should not be punished if they were ever to kill their children deliberitly.

They could've expressed their desire to raise their children however they wish with out those uncalled for hyper induced arguments they've made. What on earth, does someone have to go through all these great lengths of porfessing their unique sentiments regading such topics just to finish off with saying despite all the outlandish comments and remarks they've made about children they still love them?. There will be one day that comes when children denounce and run away from their parents and a wife casts her husband away. Fear God before you publish whatever you write because we are not the only ones who see this but God above all is well aware of what you do. Bottomline is Your children will never be your property. Simply because you are only the mere intermediate for their existance but their tru owner is God. There is no court that can give you victory in their custody over God because it is God whose created them and not you.

**Pygoscelis** · 05-01-2013

Originally Posted by Berries'forest

And maybe you missed the post but CosmicPathos made it quite clear that parents should not be punished if they were ever to kill their children deliberitly.

I didn't miss it. I am the one that drew it out of him. I wanted to clarify his view and gave an example that both he and I realize is extreme to test its limits. That he feels he has the right to kill his kids, doesn't mean he would actually do so. I find his position scary, because as the OP demonstrates there are parents who would do so, and he feels we have no right to stop them.

Fear God before you publish whatever you write because we are not the only ones who see this but God above all is well aware of what you do.

I find this pretty disturbing as well. Treat people well and be good towards your fellow humans because you Fear God? No. Way too authoritarian for my comfort. Treat people well and be good towards your fellow humans because you have empathy and compassion.

Bottomline is Your children will never be your property. Simply because you are only the mere intermediate for their existance but their tru owner is God. There is no court that can give you victory in their custody over God because it is God whose created them and not you.

They own themselves. I disapprove of ownership of human beings. Slavery is wrong. Hence my sig below.

**Karl** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Karl, thank you for your responses.

One more question. Do you extend your claimed parental sovereignty past adolescence and into adulthood for your children? So long as you live are you the owner of your children, even once they have children of your own? Are you the owner of your grand children and great grand children and all of your descendents downwards?

I don't believe in adolescence. Adulthood at twelve is my ancestors custom. I am not concerned with age but if they have the maturity to be independant of me. I will bestow independence on them. And to the rest of your questions the answer is no and btw I would have to be immortal to own my descendants anyway.

**sister herb** · 05-02-2013

Salam alaykum

12 is adult? He can marry at that age and start to take care about his own family alone?

Does 12 year old is real mature to understand to how to rise his children? Isn´t 12 year old is still in mind as child?

**CosmicPathos** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I do appreciate the other muslims writing in the thread, and I am convinced that this view Karl and CosmicPathos hold has little to do with Islam. There is something else going on here.

Islam's reason d'etre is to make us recognize one God who has created us and to follow His last Prophet. That is it.

Islam has given me the freedom to create my own views in all other aspects of life.

**sister herb** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by CosmicPathos

Islam has given me the freedom to create my own views in all other aspects of life.

Islam Cosmic as like Islam Karl? Be carefull little brother that you don´t create own views what aren´t islamic at all. Fear Allah.

**CosmicPathos** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by sister harb

Islam Cosmic as like Islam Karl? Be carefull little brother that you don´t create own views what aren´t islamic at all. Fear Allah.

Half of what you (or any human being really from sister insaanah to bro hulk) write on these forums are your views with your biases, not Islam's views or Prophet's views. So why do you not fear Allah and only want me or Karl to fear Allah?

I do fear Allah swt and I do think most humans only pay lip service to Allah swt. So I am baagi/rebel/contrarian to most human values/societies.

@Psygo: If we interfered in a person who was about to commit sin, he would never commit the sin and then would never be punished by God for something he did not do. Is not it then better to let him commit that sin and then let God distribute justice in the perfect way? Just an interesting question, not that I believe in that.

**sister herb** · 05-02-2013

It is great that you fear Allah, my brother Cosmic. May Allah guide you to see your biases too as well us all to understand basics of Islam.

I am more interesting to talk about matters of original post, not about personal matters of singural members here.

**Karl** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by sister harb

Salam alaykum

12 is adult? He can marry at that age and start to take care about his own family alone?

Does 12 year old is real mature to understand to how to rise his children? Isn´t 12 year old is still in mind as child?

It all depends on the individual growth hormone levels and genetics.

**sister herb** · 05-02-2013

It also depends how mature someone is, not only hormones or genetics.

With animals we could talk about them only.

**titus** · 05-02-2013

If we interfered in a person who was about to commit sin, he would never commit the sin and then would never be punished by God for something he did not do. Is not it then better to let him commit that sin and then let God distribute justice in the perfect way?

That can be taken as arguing against hijab, since isn't part of the reason for hijab to keep others from sinning? It could actually be taken as an argument that there should be absolutely no rules or laws on Earth since God would be giving out perfect justice.

I think that it is the role of mankind to help and protect each other, and I don't see not helping someone who is being abused or attacked or killed by their parents as an exception. That is just taking an opinion to an absurd extreme.

**Karl** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by Berries'forest

Well perhaps it's because you went against your own conscience this is why it seems so rare to you. You admitted it yourself you are driven by passion. I think the equivalent arabic word for that (I read on a translated note) was Himya or Hamiya it is an ignorant trait. I also noticed that you've missed the whole chapter in the Quran that condemed arab men who burried their daughters alive because they were considered to be a disgrace to the household or clan. No I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you are not as remarkably outstanding as you seem to think you are and yet ironically it is you who denotes that he is not as arrogant and conceited so as to 'interfere' and save a child from a wrteched infliction caused by their own 'caring' parents. You know many of your likes still exist today and have existed throughout history and for your dismay they weren't prophets nor were they truly believing people either. We can't help it if you don't feel compassionate enough to care about the well-being of your own children. I suppose you'd still stand firmly on your stance if your parents have claimed this right to parental soveregeinty as well?. Or perhaps they already did and it was just a trait that you've inherited from them. But since we 'do' "create "our children then for all we care we can burn them alive now can't we?. Kudos to the merciless empire of parental soveregeinty launching one of the most significant and remotely disasterous revolutions in all history. More power to abusive parents and downplaying to 'evil wicked nosey wretches' who dare to interfere. Funny though you seem to be placing burning down someone's house or abducting his wife on the same footing as 'interfering' with the way they treat their children. *Note: This whole thread by the way is about specifically that; How they treat their children and not how they raise them;big difference*. But hey, why should anyone concern themselves with burning down or abducting the wife of such a man I mean he would eventaully have done it himself anyway; no need to be concerned over that.

Karl, I said this to you before and I'll say it again. It's hightime you get a load of yourself. Seriously.

This behavior in earth language and substracting all those fancy and sophisticated words like 'anarchist' and 'non-conformist' it's simply called being possessive a trait that is driven by the ego. The need to control someone and exhibit absolute power over them even if that someone was your poor helpless child.

All I get is attacked for my beliefs from all except one. All believe they are overlords of my family and children except one. It was written that the world will be filled with hypocrites and sychophants and the truly faithful will be few, how true this is.

**sister herb** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by Karl

All I get is attacked for my beliefs from all except one. All believe they are overlords of my family and children except one. It was written that the world will be filled with hypocrites and sychophants and the truly faithful will be few, how true this is.

Salam alaykum

Do you represent similar way of thinking than in original post (I think they are christians in that family who left they child without medical care but instead of it decided to pray than go to doctor)? What if we could go back to topic? Your personal way to behave must be important and interesting to you but it isn´t thread in here.

**CosmicPathos** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by Karl

All I get is attacked for my beliefs from all except one. All believe they are overlords of my family and children except one. It was written that the world will be filled with hypocrites and sychophants and the truly faithful will be few, how true this is.

These people do not realize that Prophet Muhamamd pbuh was the most influential person and thinker of his time. He went against societal customs. He challenged all notions prevalent in his society. From concept of God to relations between men and women, to children.

We can never be like the Prophet, but I am thankful to Allah for bestowing us with this unique ability to see things the way they are.

It makes me wonder if these people were present during Prophet's time when he started his call, would these people have supported him or criticized him? Wallahu aalim, but humans are the most scary creatures.

**Karl** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by sister harb

It also depends how mature someone is, not only hormones or genetics.

With animals we could talk about them only.

My spiezes is fully grown and mentally mature by 12 years old. Hindu used to get married at 5 years old. It's only marriage not trying to rule the world.
Btw people are animals. What else can they be?

**CosmicPathos** · 05-02-2013

Originally Posted by titus

I think that it is the role of mankind to help and protect each other, and I don't see not helping someone who is being abused or attacked or killed by their parents as an exception. That is just taking an opinion to an absurd extreme.

All revolutionary ideas start as absurdities. Islam was an absurdity to Arabs when Prophet started his call. Now not for a moment think that I believe what I am saying is anyway closer to the call of Prophet, but that is the basic difference in those who follow the crowd and those who travel the uncharted territory.

"Not all those who wander are lost." J.R.R Tolkien

**CosmicPathos** · 05-03-2013

Originally Posted by Karl

My spiezes is fully grown and mentally mature by 12 years old. Hindu used to get married at 5 years old. It's only marriage not trying to rule the world.
Btw people are animals. What else can they be?

Any ideas why all Prophets at one time were sheep-herders? Because humanity is like sheep. And Prophets need that patience and that tenderness to lead the humanity to success, just like the sheep need it.

**sister herb** · 05-03-2013

Originally Posted by Karl

Btw people are animals. What else can they be?

What about being as humans? Mature people whose understand also what means humanity and being responsible adult? If Hindus, some of them marry at 5 years old, have muslims make same mistake that marry when they still are as children?

What if 12 year old child doesn´t want to marry but stay at home and play with dolls?

**sister herb** · 05-03-2013

********************

**Karl** · 05-03-2013

Originally Posted by sister harb

Salam alaykum

Do you represent similar way of thinking than in original post (I think they are christians in that family who left they child without medical care but instead of it decided to pray than go to doctor)? What if we could go back to topic? Your personal way to behave must be important and interesting to you but it isn´t thread in here.

I am just replying to people here. People just like to badger me for my beliefs. They are pulling this thread off topic not me. Also let's look at it from another angle, these Christians might want to have strong children so if they are weak they die and go to God. People today do everything they can to preserve the sickly and weak. Is this the right path? Would it be better to let them die so their genetic line gets stronger? So many babies are born premature and have to be kept in intensive care in incubators, is this right and natural? Will the people in the future become so weak that they will have to rely on machines to live?