from a few days ago in Egypt-- enjoy

format_quote Originally Posted by جوري

I can't verify that? truly you're a hoot..
I'd think you'd be embarrassed to point out your ignorance so openly again in lieu of hoping it would simply dissipate into some crevice of the web..
<span style="font-family: Courier New"><font color="DarkSlateGray"><font size="3">
if you're not happy with the results try to set up your own survey and get back to us with something other than search results that agree with your agenda, as I can easily produce evidence to the contrary!

I like big dog me too thing you've going here- It is just unfortunate you always assume the role of a gadfly with such success

best,

So a video from Youtube is proof? Is there a dataset to back up an assertion that the Sunni are the majority? What was the methodology used? Not that actual scientific study would mean anything to you. No amount of evidence would ever change your mind because of the chains you have constructed for your intellect. You accuse me of having an agenda, but your anti-Shia agenda has been quite clear with your labeling of the Shia in Iraq as "psychopaths." I'm not sure what your source of hostility towards the Shia is. I would assume it is simply because their version of Islam is different from your version of Islam. What a narrow minded and sad reason to hate people who are different from you.

format_quote Originally Posted by shahadainmaine

I understand what you have written. Certainly a Masjid should do more than potlucks and social events. From my own personal experience though I tend to get a little uncomfortable when the Imam [edited] of the mosque I've started attending (I'm not a Muslim...yet at least, but am very interested) talks about politics. He does not really talk about it during Friday prayers but on Sundays he does a Quran study and every week he talks about Syria. Please, do not misunderstand! I do think people should be engaged and concerned about what happens in the world, bu during Quran study I was to learn about the Quran. Also, I think my Imam [edited] is a Shia (I am not sure, I am still learning about Islam so it is difficult for me to know for sure) and this informs his worldview. Whenever he talks about Syria he always likes to describe it as an attempt to attack Islam being carried out by Israel and Saudi Arabia & the Muslim Brotherhood (though, since the military has taken over in Egypt he doesn't mention them so much anymore) and he usually likes to frame the fighting there as some sort of end times event with a descendant of Ishmael and Isaac being on the good side (the Mahdi and Jesus) and descendants of Ishmael and Isaac being on the evil side (Saudi Arabia/Muslim Brotherhood and Israel).

Glad to hear you are interested in Islam. Please feel free to ask any questions and insha'Allah (God willing) we will do our best to help you. Also, I believe you meant "Imam" in your post which is a leader found in a masjid. "Iman" (or "eman") refers to faith or belief in Islam.

Politics can be a touchy subject but a very important one. I do not feel that politics should be injected into discussions where it takes things off-topic so if you were attending a Qur'an class then obviously he should focus on the Qur'an and not get off on tangents. However, if he is quoting various ayat (verses) in the Qur'an that have very important lessons for today that are relevant to certain current events (i.e. Syria or Egypt) then it would make sense for him to reference them. People living in the West and elsewhere are often accustomed to the idea of religion and politics (i.e. voting, candidates, laws, etc.), or religion and secular endeavors (i.e. shopping, banking, working, studying, etc.) as being separate. This is not the case in Islam. Everything from what is in one's heart to one's every action and even the direction of an entire society is considered religious and is inseparable from Islam for those who are Muslims which means that we are required to interpret everything from an Islamic perspective where applicable.

In the masjids I have attended (which have been very few), there tends to be political discussion that is injected into discussions and discourses where it is off-topic, irrelevant, and containing viewpoints that are either not backed up in Islam (i.e. Qur'an and Sunnah are not cited) or they are actually contradictory to Islam. Then when political discussion is extremely relevant, such topics are often completely absent or if mentioned are barely touched upon and then quickly glossed over. We need to hear politics in our masjids but we need to hear the right kind of politics, meaning "What does Islam say about a particular issue and how should Muslims address the issue?" This is my humble opinion based on my understanding of Islam and as always Allah (swt) knows best.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~

Assalamu-alaikum

The above reply is the complete response - which, as you have correctly indicated - have 'no sources quoted from Quran and Hadith'.

^ And this is a completely fine, mashaAllah.
The reason why this is an acceptable response from a mufti stems from the following:

If, for example, a person suffers from a serious heart condition. What does he do?
-> He will obviously look for the best, and most qualified cardiologist in his area and consult him for appropriate advise and treatment.
Which means, that from the outset - before even walking into the cardiologists room - he is indirectly saying that: I accept this specialists knowledge, experience and good recommendations in the community, and this is the reason why I have chosen to consult him for this problem.

So, the cardiologist examines the person, and then gives him advice to take certain medications and that he will need a certain operation.
It will be good for the cardiologist to explain the persons medical condition to him, in the best and simplest way possible (for a lay-person to understand).....but if the patient were to ask for 'evidence' behind each and every medication or advice - will this be correct?

Of course not.
Why? Because, firstly the cardiologist will not have the time to do so.
And secondly: His advice is not based on information that he read from one/ two journals. Instead his conclusions are the result of years.....sometimes, decades of learning and experience.
Which means, that if the patient is asking for 'evidence' for each recommendation that is made by the cardiologist - he is actually saying that he does not trust this cardiologists decision (and he wants to verify it himself). It would be understandable if the cardiologist were to say: if you are not happy with my judgement, then you can go elsewhere....

For worldly matters, we may chose to get a 'second opinion'.

But when it comes to matters of deen, the teaching from our elders is that: Once you have chosen to contact a certain aalim (scholar) - it means that you already trust his knowledge and reliability (if not, then why would you contact him?).....and so, once a fatwa is provided, then we accept it, and practice upon it.
(if not, it results in 'shopping for fatwas', and following our desire for an answer that suits our limited understanding).
In this case, I trust the experience and the many, many years of study that this particular mufti has - and while it is possible for me to ask him to explain in more detail (for my own understanding) - it will be incorrect for me to doubt whether or not this fatwa is based on quraan and hadith.

(I realise that this is a long-winded reply, but in shaa Allah, it explains that we hold the knowledge that our elders have with respect and regard in shaa Allah.
Unfortunately, the current trend is for people to read a few articles on a topic, and then think that they are 'experts' in it.
Whereas, the advice of our ulema is based on many years of knowledge and from authentic sources in shaa Allah).

Jazakallah khair for clarifying the above points. I agree we should not "fatwa shop" nor assume ourselves as experts after a minimal amount of reading or studying as such can lead to arrogance and incorrect understanding. May Allah (swt) protect us from these problems. At the same time, I feel we do have to be on guard constantly against fitna and anyone or anything that could lead us astray (whether intentionally or unintentionally). Just because a particular masjid or Islamic organization has an office with a desk and nameplate that says "Shikh" or "Imam" does not of course mean that this person is to automatically be considered a reliable source of information for all Islamic matters although he may be reliable on some things. I do believe we should try to seek out scholars that are trustworthy but then the question is how do we know who is reliable? We therefore have to rely on our sources (Qur'an and Sunnah) and our intelligence that Allah (swt) has given us. If it had not been for our intelligence and ability to consult our sources and Allah's (swt) will then we would never have accepted Islam or maintained our iman or taqwa in the first place. That is great to hear that you have found ulema that you are comfortable consulting. Perhaps I am just not there yet. I do know that if something does not fit right with me meaning it does not make logical sense in my mind and does not seem to be in line with anything I have read in Qur'an or Hadith then it warrants a demand for clarification. May Allah (swt) forgive me if I am wrong here.

The point that was being made (and in the muftis reply) is that the civil wars that are currently occurring in many parts of the world, are not regarded as jihad by very many traditional scholars.

And this is what I dispute. Just because "very many traditional scholars" disagree on something does not mean they are per se correct considering that we are in times of serious fitna. Even if political issues are not necessarily related to Islam itself, as Muslims we must interpret everything according to Islam where applicable. In Egypt as many have cited here in various links, videos, and examples, Imams are being banned from giving khutbas, masjids are being closed or having hours of operation restricted, visibly-observant Muslims (i.e. bearded men, niqabi women) are being specifically targeted for oppression and violence, Muslims who oppose secular government and support Islamic governance are being flat out killed, etc. That is not just "civil war" but is indeed a situation that makes jihad obligatory because they are being prohibited from practicing Islam. What I do not know is to what extent jihad is obligatory for Muslims outside of these conflict zones (i.e. here in the U.S.) and what kinds of jihad are obligatory). Jazakallah khair for posting the opinion of your ulema. To my knowledge, though, the ulema in my local Muslim community have been so silent on the issue that I have yet to even hear the word "jihad" referenced outside of a joke someone has told or within the context of some statement along the lines of "American Muslims condemn terrorism."

The description of the sisters hijab (or lack thereof) at your masjid, is a good example of how much emphasis needs to be placed on reforming peoples hearts and matters of day-to-day ibaadat.

Unfortunately, very often, the ones who want to take to the streets in protest of, for example, insults to the prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) and other matters - themselves, bear very little resemblance to his blessed manner.
Which is why, it seems acceptable to become passionate in 'defending islam' - by burning down property and other ways that are in complete contradiction to the teachings of islam......but there is little passion in following the sunnah of the beard, the prophet (saw) dress, men reading their daily salaah in jamaat, etc.
^ This stems from lack of knowledge and true love for the commands of Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam)......but more knowledge and love for worldly affairs.

Taqwa and iman are both extremely important, no doubt about that as are the daily habits of the Muslim such as dress and behavior. Jazakallah khair for the good examples you have provided. This tells me that it is crucial as Muslims to "pick our battles" and utilize the proper response for the situation. While someone slandering the Prophet (saw) is something that should deeply disturb us, there may be other issues that are more pressing and imminent, and the response should be appropriate and applicable to the situation and a response of moderation rather than extremism and of course grounded in Islamic principles.

One of the masjids I attend I have not heard hijab referenced as obligatory for women even so much as once (not even in the "intro" talks given to reverts). When hijab is referenced, it is referenced in the context of a joke. Needless to say I have mostly moved on from that masjid. Yet I have also frequented Muslim-owned businesses where the Muslimahs who work at or run the place are not wearing hijab and not breaking away from the operations of the business at salat time. Many Muslims do not have the privilege of running a business where we can choose our schedule and dress code much easier than when working for a non-Muslim business where our Islam is tolerated at best. So it really baffles me that people in positions where following important obligatory aspects of Islam are rather easy choose to abandon them and then turn around and tell those of us who are struggling to follow the same things that these acts are optional and not required. I have yet to hear of any lecture on riba and how to avoid it and its importance. Simple questions about various aspects of the deen are essentially considered to be "not a big deal" and no effort on the leaders is made at all to research the answer and get back to me. So in essence, at least from what I have been exposed to, we have people calling themselves as scholars who do not appear to measure up to the title. I am not doing takfeer on them or considering them to be munafiqueen but I feel we as Muslims have a continuous duty to improve in every aspect of Islam and demand that those who lead us do the same.

The fiqh of jihad is a topic for itself (which is best held by those who possess true knowledge in this field)....
However, as mentioned above, many imaams and scholars do not view the current wars as a form of jihad.

It is best that we take our cues in these matters from our ulema (and not small factions within the community), and in shaa Allah, we will safe-guard ourselves from falling into error (remember, we are living in a time when there will be much division within our ummah. Many people will be saying many different things.
For us, as simple muslims to ensure that we remain on the straight path in shaa Allah, it is best to stick close to those knowledgeable and trustworthy in our communities).

I dont think it would be easy to extrapolate what is happening at your masjid to everywhere else (even within your region)....

In my area, our imaams and other muslim leaders do speak of the calamities in other parts of the world, by means of:
- Duaa that is made in congregation.
- Some time ago, our local masjid held a night of prayer and zikr for the victims of egypt and syria
- Our local jamiat does discuss global affairs on their website. This is their link: http://jamiat.org.za/blog/category/news/
- Our local islamic radio stations holds many discussions about what is going on in many parts of the world.
- I constantly receive emails and sms alerts requesting donations for various relief projects: e.g. Gift of the Givers, Al Imdaad Foundation, etc (we just need to look out for reputable organisations and in shaa Allah, we can do our part - even if it is very small).

In other words, we may not find our imaams directly calling for support towards one group or another (as it is becoming increasingly difficult to identify who are the actual enemies to islam and who are not).
They hold positions of great responsibility in their respective communities, and so, there does need to be caution before passing any verdicts - that is often based on incomplete information, and for which, they will be held accountable for in the aakhirah.
(e.g. while Bassad is indeed a tyrant, there are also problems within the rebel groups as well......it really is not as clear as we would hope it to be).

But, at least in my part of the world, and I hope in many others, there are some attempts being made (no doubt, there is always room for improvement), to call the community to remember, make duaa for and support our brothers and sisters in all parts of the globe.

I may just have to keep looking locally until I find what is needed. But I believe there is clear evidence that much of Islam in America is being transformed into "Americanized Islam" in a similar manner as to the creation of "Reform Judaism" out of Judaism. Unlike Judaism and Christianity where many adherents believe that those paths need to "change with the times" Islam is not changeable or reformable yet the imam at the masjid I was referencing earlier in this post publically stated that some reform is needed in Islam and basically stated he wanted "to open the gates of ijtihad." So we obviously have some serious problems.

I am no expert on Islam but I have learned enough to understand some very simple politics to follow as Muslims.

1. The first is that we are Muslims first and anything else second. We are not American Muslims or British Muslims or Pakistani Muslims. We are Muslims who live in the United States or the United Kingdom or Pakistan. It is one thing for Muslims to follow the law of the land in which we live, pay our taxes, and participate positively in our nation. It is another thing to adopt state-based nationalism in which our country is first and Islam is second. And I clearly see a significant attempt by regular Muslims and Muslim leadership at essentially defining us as "American Muslims" rather than just Muslims in America. Our nationalism is the ummah. Therefore we should be more connected in our hearts, minds, and applicable actions to Muslims in Egypt and Syria than connected to kaffirs in our own states just because our passports or visas happen to say U.S. on them. If a Muslim is more patriotic and loyal to a nation of kufr and shirk than to our brothers and sisters this raises some serious questions and concerns. As to Egypt, it appears the same issue is underway there and that is to turn Muslims in Egypt into Egyptian Muslims where Islam becomes secondary and "Egyptianism" becomes primary. Tribalism, nationalism, ethno-centrism have no place in Islam as we are one ummah--brotherhood and sisterhood.

2. We need tarbiya. We need good PR. We need strong communication. Two of the halaqas I go to aren't even listed on the masjid website and the other masjid that has a class I used to go often did not update the information on their website. It is understandable if our leaders don't know every detail about what is going on in Egypt or Syria but they should be informing us of the things they do know and using technology to our advantage by putting links and videos on websites, handing out brochures, etc. Capitalist corporations and government agencies often make strong use of communications and technologies. Why don't we? Since the topic is Egypt, why then is the Ikhwan/MB website full of blank pages and areas of the site that don't seem finished? The website states that there are members outside of Egypt so someone somewhere should have the login to keep us updated yet many aspects don't even look like they are finished. I have even offered to help improve things at a local masjid and so have other much more learned sisters and the requests are ignored and stagnation is preferred over striving as is indicated by the lack of action or motivation.

3. We need to get non-Islamic culture out of Islam. Hijra is obligatory for those of us in danger of fitna or in areas where iman is weak. Yet most Muslims who are running the local community here (and likely throughout the U.S.) have arrived here by leaving Muslim lands in favor of a kaffir nation. I have heard more talk about the greatness of America by these leaders than I have about the greatness of living in the khalifa or under sharia. In fact, the word "khalifa" has not been mentioned yet that I have heard.

Astagfirullah for making this long and for being a bit off-topic myself. I hope the mods don't delete this as insha'Allah I will try to keep this more on-topic going forward. I feel that the points in this post are very applicable to what is going on in Egypt (the title of this thread) and how we as Muslims should interpret the situation and respond even if they aren't all addressing the situation there specifically. May Allah (swt) forgive me for anything I have said incorrect and guide us all to the truth. Ameen.

format_quote Originally Posted by جوري

I have given database on the previous threads from Iraqi sources and they should be the best to assess their own demographics- we can't help it if you're not from the region, don't know how to read and don't know how to process information!

Are you referring to the block of text you copy and pasted without a citation? Or was this in another thread? If you could be so kind as to share a link to the database, or let me know where this thread is.

format_quote Originally Posted by جوري

unresolved residual psychological issues

Wow, you really slammed me. I sure don't know how I'll ever recover from that insightful barb.

format_quote Originally Posted by جوري

This thread is about Egypt

Yes, a shame about what happened to the Brotherhood. I suppose the only silver lining is that Allah wished for it to happen.