The demand that more Muslims ‘must condemn ISIS’ is racist and ridiculous

**Hulk** · 08-22-2014

"Let’s get two caveats out of the way first: I’m neither a Muslim and nor am I religious in any sense (I come from a Sikh family). Secondly, anyone who’s read my work knows I have zero sympathy for religiously motivated terrorists. In fact I even supported the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 to take out the Taliban.

Yesterday the Evening Standard said in its Editorial Comment: “Muslim communities must be far more outspoken about this: we look to them, for instance, to organise protests against the Islamic State.”

I’ve also seen various tweets by people asking why more Muslims aren’t speaking out against ISIS, or condemning it.."

Full article

**syed_z** · 08-26-2014

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I was of the impression that sectarian conflict always existed in Iraq, but was subdued by the brutal iron fist of Sadam Hussein. Is that true or is that western propaganda?

Greetings Pygoscelis,

The sectarian violence never existed, rather Saddam's (A Sunni Ruler) armed forces had a large number of Shias serving and they even fought against Iran, a Shia country during the Iran-Iraq 8 year war, so you can imagine how much nationalist all Muslims in Iraq from different ethnic groups were.

Not after US invaded, these Shia mosques then had bombings, Al Qaeda videos started to surface on the Media in and outside of Iraq claiming those attacks and Al Qaeda members inviting the Iraqi Sunnis in those videos to wage 'Jihad' against Shias, whom US installed in Baghdad as they are majority in Iraq (60%), sectarian minded rulers like Al Maliki who started oppressing other groups such as Sunnis, Kurds etc.

**Jedi_Mindset** · 08-26-2014

Correction, it was the iraq shia government that immediately started to displace sunnis out of baghdad, first ex-army officers of saddam's army were hunted and assasinated.
Neverthless, if we keep pointing fingers at each other these wars wouldnt get solved.

**Muhaba** · 08-29-2014

IS executes 'dozens' of Syria troops in new atrocity

Islamic State jihadists have executed "dozens" of fleeing Syrian soldiers, a monitor said Thursday, the latest in a string of brutal abuses alarming Western powers who fear a global spread of the terror.

News of the killings comes as US President Barack Obama is reportedly weighing air strikes on IS positions in Syria and coming closer to greenlighting a mission to aid Shiite Turkmen trapped in an Iraqi town by the jihadists.

French President Francois Hollande on Thursday added his voice to the disquiet that has been growing since the jihadists marauded through Iraq and beheaded US journalist James Foley.

The latest killings took place during the night in the northern province of Raqa, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said, adding that the victims were soldiers fleeing towards government-held territory to the west after the jihadists overran their air base at Tabqa.

The jihadists boasted on Twitter that they had killed 200 defeated troops and posted video of what they said was the garrison in headlong flight.

"Dozens of Syrian soldiers captured while fleeing... after the IS overran Tabqa airbase were executed by the jihadists during the night," said Rami Abdel Rahman, head of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

The jihadists seized the airport on Sunday after weeks of bitter fighting with loyalist forces, cementing their control over Raqa province, capital of their self-declared Islamic "caliphate".

Abdel Rahman said the defeated garrison comprised 1,400 soldiers, 200 of whom were killed and 700 of whom managed to escape.

The other 500 remain on the run. Dozens were captured on Wednesday night as they attempted to cross the desert to government-held territory in the Orontes Valley to the west.

https://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/ex...125414119.html

Syrian troops are war criminals who have collectively killed, tortured, raped, bombed, burnt, and dismembered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians as well as caused millions to become refugees and caused millions to go into starvation and malnutrition. Syrian people will be happy if someone comes to their rescue and saves them from these horrible war criminals. While I don't agree with the extremist things that ISIL is being accused of, I also don't believe the media 100% and can't say that ISIL is truly the bad guy and doing all the bad things it is being accused of. What is life like in the areas controlled by ISIL? Is there peace there? Are innocent people in constant fear like under Syrian regime and Iraqi regime (bomb blasts going off anywhere, people being kidnapped and murdered, etc.) or is it safe to go about doing one's business? It's true that in any revolution, there will be some insecurity but things like this should let one know whether ISIL is truly committing atrocities or is it trying to save the innocent people from atrocities being committed by the likes of Bashar Al Assad's army.

**Jedi_Mindset** · 08-30-2014

There is so much deception out here...i rather stay away from politics.
Btw, if one caliphate is to be declared the ummah needs to be consulted right? if so, then this is the first point that this caliphate is invalid.

But on the other hand, i know that the hanbali fiqh allows the muslims to estabilish a caliphate with force (this is what ISIS is doing now).

I need to be more aware of this, and maybe u can answer me bro dreamin:

Who funds ISIS?
What is its goals?
If the lies about ISIS are untrue, where are the rebuttals?

**Pygoscelis** · 08-30-2014

Isis shares a name with a pagan Egyptian God. I'd think Allah would not approve.

When Isis is no more, will we call them Waswas?

**ardianto** · 08-31-2014

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Isis shares a name with a pagan Egyptian God. I'd think Allah would not approve.

When Isis is no more, will we call them Waswas?

Actually ISIS was not the original name which in Arabic. In the beginning they just operated in Iraq. Later they cross the border to Syria with purpose to include Syria in their Islamic state. This was the time when they began to called ISIS or Islamic State Iraqi Sham (Syria) which was translation of their group name in Arabic.

But now they have changed their name into just Daulah Islamiyah (Islamic State) after they proclaimed their leader as the leader (caliph) of the whole Muslims in the world which all Muslims are obligated to pledge allegiance to him. It caused controversy because actually they don't have a right to order Muslims to obey their caliph. But they respond other Muslims protest with statement that, any Muslim who does not pledge allegiance to their caliph is apostate (murtadin).

Do you know Pygo, they challenge Muslims with "If you do not accept Ibrahim as caliph, then you are obligated to behead him". I found this statement in their supporter website which I often observe. Clearly, they declare war to Muslims who do not support them.

About their brutality which they kill not only non-Muslims but also Muslims, they respond with "It's justified and does not make Ibrahim position as caliph becomes illegitimate". They also say that what the caliph Yazid had done with ordered his men to kill Husein (grandson of prophet Muhammad) did not make Yazid position as caliph became illegitimate.

**daveyats** · 08-31-2014

Originally Posted by Dreamin

Syrian troops are war criminals who have collectively killed, tortured, raped, bombed, burnt, and dismembered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians as well as caused millions to become refugees and caused millions to go into starvation and malnutrition. Syrian people will be happy if someone comes to their rescue and saves them from these horrible war criminals. While I don't agree with the extremist things that ISIL is being accused of, I also don't believe the media 100% and can't say that ISIL is truly the bad guy and doing all the bad things it is being accused of. What is life like in the areas controlled by ISIL? Is there peace there? Are innocent people in constant fear like under Syrian regime and Iraqi regime (bomb blasts going off anywhere, people being kidnapped and murdered, etc.) or is it safe to go about doing one's business? It's true that in any revolution, there will be some insecurity but things like this should let one know whether ISIL is truly committing atrocities or is it trying to save the innocent people from atrocities being committed by the likes of Bashar Al Assad's army.

read the news my friend. Mosul has been emptied of christians and other minority sects. if ISIS is so kind and peaceful why are people risking their lives to escape through mountains and other hazardous conditions. its on al jezreel news so no way you can accuse that media outlet of any bias against muslims

**ardianto** · 08-31-2014

If Crusaders came to my city and told me that I should convert to Christianity or die, would I convert to Christianity?. I prefer to die or escape before they arrest me. And if they gave me second choice that I still could practice my Islamic belief and even they would protect me if I pay a tax that not much and only if I have sufficient income, would I accept this offer?.

It's depend on those Crusaders reputation. If they had reputation as fighter who treat those who surrender respectfully, I would choose to surrender and pay tax. But if those Crusaders had reputation as fighters who behead the defeated enemies, how could I trust them?.

This is why Christians and Yezidis prefer to risk their life with escape to mountain than surrender and pay jizyah which actually only in small amount.

Originally Posted by daveyats

read the news my friend. Mosul has been emptied of christians and other minority sects. if ISIS is so kind and peaceful why are people risking their lives to escape through mountains and other hazardous conditions. its on al jezreel news so no way you can accuse that media outlet of any bias against muslims

ISIS treat Sunni Muslims who live in their area very well and respectfully. But it cause bias that ISIS created to defend Sunni. It's not true, they protect Sunni only if these Sunni pledge allegiance to 'caliph' Ibrahim (abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi). ISIS have killed many Sunni who refuse to accept Ibrahim as their caliph.

Another bias is there are media that accuse ISIS as perpetrator for action that done by other group. Like in case which Fijian troop from UN peace keeping force in Golan detained. There are few medias that accuse ISIS as perpetrator although the perpetrator is Jabah Nushra (JN), a Sunni militia group that in war against ISIS and Bashar Al-Asad force at once. ISIS fight JN because JN refuse to pledge allegiance to Ibrahim, although JN are Sunni and even affiliate of Al-Qaeda.

**daveyats** · 09-01-2014

Originally Posted by ardianto

If Crusaders came to my city and told me that I should convert to Christianity or die, would I convert to Christianity?. I prefer to die or escape before they arrest me. And if they gave me second choice that I still could practice my Islamic belief and even they would protect me if I pay a tax that not much and only if I have sufficient income, would I accept this offer?.

It's depend on those Crusaders reputation. If they had reputation as fighter who treat those who surrender respectfully, I would choose to surrender and pay tax. But if those Crusaders had reputation as fighters who behead the defeated enemies, how could I trust them?.

This is why Christians and Yezidis prefer to risk their life with escape to mountain than surrender and pay jizyah which actually only in small amount.

ISIS treat Sunni Muslims who live in their area very well and respectfully. But it cause bias that ISIS created to defend Sunni. It's not true, they protect Sunni only if these Sunni pledge allegiance to 'caliph' Ibrahim (abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi). ISIS have killed many Sunni who refuse to accept Ibrahim as their caliph.

Another bias is there are media that accuse ISIS as perpetrator for action that done by other group. Like in case which Fijian troop from UN peace keeping force in Golan detained. There are few medias that accuse ISIS as perpetrator although the perpetrator is Jabah Nushra (JN), a Sunni militia group that in war against ISIS and Bashar Al-Asad force at once. ISIS fight JN because JN refuse to pledge allegiance to Ibrahim, although JN are Sunni and even affiliate of Al-Qaeda.

Ardi all i can say is, christians are being killed and forced out of iraq. the jizya is not a small amount and there are reports that christian properties are forcibly confiscated by ISIS. you don't have to believe me. the information is all on the internet. I believe most of these reports are true.

**cogito ergo sum** · 09-01-2014

Originally Posted by hedron

I was raised Catholic and having a Pope is convenient. While he doesn't speak for individual Catholics, he speaks for Catholics as a whole. It seems Islam is lacking in such a figure. The Pope has the power to excommunicate those who do not follow Church doctrine, which means they are condemned to hell if they do not make amends. I know that I am nobody to tell Muslims what they should or shouldn't do, but it seems that in situations like this it would be convenient to have an Islamic "Pope" to excommunicate those who stray, as it seems is the case with ISIL.

The thing is, the global Muslim community is a mess. Bunch of corrupt rulers, various dictators and oligarchs who are loyal only to their interests, making Islamic scholars silent and invisible.

(I am a Muslim)...

**ardianto** · 09-01-2014

Originally Posted by daveyats

Ardi all i can say is, christians are being killed and forced out of iraq. the jizya is not a small amount and there are reports that christian properties are forcibly confiscated by ISIS. you don't have to believe me. the information is all on the internet. I believe most of these reports are true.

There's no minimum or maximum amount of jizya, and actually it should not burdensome, and in amount that not different than zakat to make a fairness between non-Muslims and Muslims. But if ISIS demanding high amount, I am not surprised. They commit many action that against Islamic teaching itself like execute prisoners.

I know that Christians are being killed and forced out from their cities and villages. Yes, Christian and other minority sects forced out from Mosul too. Now Mosul is under ISIS. I think you know that Al-Baghdadi appeared in a Sunni mosque in Mosul. But do you know what happened to the previous mosque imam?. He was executed because refuse to pledge allegiance to Al-Baghdadi. ISIS kill not only non-Muslims and Shia Muslims, but also Sunni Muslims who against them.

I follow news from Iraq and Syria from various sources. And yes, I found many bias which one source and another source can contradict each other.

In Indonesia ISIS issue has become serious issue. Now ministry of religion and Muslims scholars are trying to prevent people influenced by ISIS propaganda. In few place Muslims people securing mosques that identified as place for spreading ISIS propaganda. But, do people in the West know it?.

**Frazer** · 09-05-2014

I don't totally disagree with the original post but I thought it was worth pointing out that the original post mentions a number of times the racism aimed at Muslims receive, even stating that is 'by far the most extensive level of racism in Europe'.

It's worth pointing out that Islam/Muslim by definition is not a race, it's a religion, religion and race are two different things.
I understand that many Muslims may see themselves as a collective people but it is not a race.
You can choose to become a Muslim and choose to leave, you can't choose to become a different race.
Many Muslims are victimised based on their religion and/or race but the two are not to be confused.

**Pygoscelis** · 09-09-2014

I can only imagine what it would be like to try to survive as an atheist in Isis controlled territory. If they slaughter not only Christians, but the "wrong" sort of Muslims, imagine if you told them you didn't believe any gods exist.

**h-n** · 09-09-2014

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Indeed. Intelligent people will go look into it themselves, such as speaking with some Muslims (if they know any) or coming to places like this one. That's how I wound up here in the first place, following 9/11 in the wake of all the islamophibia it evoked.

I can't say I agree with Islam on much at all whatsoever, but I can say that I am less myopic than many in the west who don't bother to investigate, and realize that just like with Christians, Jews, Atheists, or any other group, you've got individual Muslims who vary widely in views, and will use/stretch their religion or ideology to fit them.

I know you folks here like to say that there is "only one Islam", just like the Christians I talk to tell me they are the "only true Christians", but I have met people calling themselves muslims who vary from those who want to hunt down and kill homosexuals to those who are ok with gay marriage, and from those who hate non-muslims to those who have intermarried with them, and from those who won't listen to any sort of music to those who go to dance clubs, and from those who celebrate the deaths of kafirs to those who are pacifists, and from those who wear niqab to those who wear bathing suits in public, and so on and so on.

Seeing a group like Isis and assuming that this is representative of all the billions of muslims on the planet it just ridiculous. But humans are tribal, and we are prone to doing this. The same can be seen in regard to other groups. Just look at how Jews or Black people are depicted in some circles.

I suppose Islam may be a bit of a special case, since Muslims have a notable tendency to prefer other muslims over non-muslims (I see it in pretty much all discussions here from charitable giving to who to have as friends), but people fail to realize that Muslims need only see Isis as not following Islam to get by that issue.

What is ridiculous here on this forum, is that your you think your going to teach people how to think, and that from you Muslims don't seem to understand the basic understandings of how human beings behave.

You complain that Muslims don't care, when ie Muslim men spend time taking care of their parents more, looking after their sisters, and other extended families. Not only that buy by also looking after neighbours who are non-Muslim. If your society is so intelligent, then why does it not take care of the elderly more???

So as above the idea that your going to talk to Muslims as if they know nothing of the ways of people is pathetic.

You and no one else, are more intelligent then;-

Prophet Jesus peace be upon him,
Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him,
Prophet Moses peace be upon him,
Prophet Job peace be upon him,
Prophet Noah peace be upon him.

You listen to what you wish to follow of your own desires for the life of this world, and even go as so far to quote being "liberal" as if its an intelligent thing to do.

A recent survey was taken in the UK, it stated that atheist give less to charity then anyone else.
You use pathetic examples which are so far apart, ie to accept homosexuality or not.

God punishes people in the fire, as they refused to repent, and rejected the truth-not because they didn't know. For example when the Prophets ie like Prophet Noah peace be upon him came and told people to repent, he didn't say the truth was far from them to understand, it was something beyond them. The Prophets didn't set out tables and chairs and have seminars, they told people to repent on as soon as they were giving the message of God. I will wait and see you on the Day of Judgement, and it is no hard thing for God to make you stand with homosexuals etc.

Allah Akbar!

**h-n** · 09-09-2014

Originally Posted by daveyats

Ardi all i can say is, christians are being killed and forced out of iraq. the jizya is not a small amount and there are reports that christian properties are forcibly confiscated by ISIS. you don't have to believe me. the information is all on the internet. I believe most of these reports are true.

Do you think that non-Muslims are going to benefit for free when Muslims, God's servants fight and when they do, they protect the non-Muslims, as no one is going to think of attacking the Christians etc when they go to a Muslim majority land. It is not the money that was wanted, obviously why bother when they are only a minority? It is an obvious thing that a believer, a servant of God does not fight and willing to die to benefit idol worshippers.

Of course we wouldn't expect the Christians to understand, as they do not care about following religion, but their own wants, this is why its not surprising that when Christians question Muslims, they ask questions befitting an atheists. Do you think an idol worshipper should have the support of God and all his angels?? It is no different to people.

On another note, you say its all over the internet??? Even I couldn't say what is happening, but we do know from their own admission that the US for example have supported the rebels in Syria, its a complete mess what is going on, I think the only way to know for sure is if the masses went over there instead of relying on media.

**h-n** · 09-09-2014

What you need to worry about is not what is happening in another country-where even we majority Muslims don't get involved in, and carry on our day to day activities. But that when you reject God, there is everlasting punishment in the next world for anyone who rejects God.

**Pygoscelis** · 09-09-2014

That is one hefty strawman there h-n. You seem to see me typing a lot of things I didn't know I typed. And you seem to have a lot of ire. All I can really do is smile and pat you on the head. Have a great night.

**Futuwwa** · 09-11-2014

Originally Posted by daveyats

Again, I'm not saying all muslims support terrorism or are violent people themselves. I googled to try to find out what islamic authorities are doing to combat the jihadist ideology - I found none. I can draw a few logical conclusions:

1. No one is really doing anything beyond saying "ISIS does not represent Islam"
2. No one is able to refute the jihadist theology. The jihadist has a very strong case for their violence in Islam.
3. Alternatively, they are able to refute the jihadist theology but don't think its important enough to make their material available online.

And why should they have to publicly refute ISIS's claim that their actions are righteous? Does ISIS have the benefit of assumption and anyone who disagrees with them the burden of proof? Why does any of it matter to you, or any other non-Muslim. If you don't think Islam is the true religion in the first place, there is no such thing as "true authentic" Islam in the first place, it is for all purposes that actually matter exactly what Muslims make of it.

When was the last time a Christian leader made that kind of academical, theological refutation of abortion clinic bombing, similar to what you're demanding from Muslims?

Also, have you actually tried to search for any material online by any prominent Islamic clerics or clerical institutions of the kind that you are demanding, or are you just assuming it doesn't exist because you personally haven't heard about it? Just curious.

This is why it's so exasperating to try to live up to the incessant, never-ending demands that we "condemn the extremists". When we do (which we pretty much do all the time), those who do the demand either pretend we don't exist, don't bother to find out whether we do, or keep constantly moving the goalposts.

**Taha110** · 09-12-2014

I shouldn't have to justify my faith by constantly condemning everything bad done in it's glorious name. How often do you see Christians being super outspoken about how the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, Timothy McVeigh, etc don't represent authentic Christianity? Hardly ever. Does that mean that those groups/people represent Christianity? Not at all. It is just not an absolute necessity for somebody to go out of their way to condemn others.

That being said, I do wholeheartedly and publicly condemn ISIS. I do this, not out of obligation, but because I want to. I want people to realize that ISIS does not represent Muslims or the interests of Muslims.

I was really disturbed when Anjem Choudary went on Fox News and defended ISIS by saying that they were doing everything for the sake of Muslims. Nonsense. The majority of the victims of ISIS are Muslims.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

**daveyats** · 09-15-2014

Originally Posted by Taha110

I shouldn't have to justify my faith by constantly condemning everything bad done in it's glorious name. How often do you see Christians being super outspoken about how the KKK, Westboro Baptist Church, Timothy McVeigh, etc don't represent authentic Christianity? Hardly ever. Does that mean that those groups/people represent Christianity? Not at all. It is just not an absolute necessity for somebody to go out of their way to condemn others.

That being said, I do wholeheartedly and publicly condemn ISIS. I do this, not out of obligation, but because I want to. I want people to realize that ISIS does not represent Muslims or the interests of Muslims.

I was really disturbed when Anjem Choudary went on Fox News and defended ISIS by saying that they were doing everything for the sake of Muslims. Nonsense. The majority of the victims of ISIS are Muslims.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

exactly my point, you wont merely feel obligated to, you should WANT to condemn them because they are supposedly misrepresenting islam.
the thing about KKK, westboro and timothy veigh... these are truly the minority but all over the world, there are groups of terrorists who claim to be carrying out acts of violence in the name of Islam. their teachings have proliferated in many places. shouldn't someone in authority be concerned enough to counter the teachings of these terrorists?

i learnt something on this forum called a "fatwa". can a fatwa be issued to stop muslims from joining ISIL?