Violence is more prevalent in the Bible than the Quran text analysis proves

Min kum mu-min wa min kum kaafir - that's what i see, you're either with the believers and part of the solution, , or with the likes of george bush and therefore part of the problem.

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

Not just hatred, but bitterness, fury, apathy, and a slowly kindling and growing desire to see justice and retribution.

I am not sure how you can strive for justice with hatred, bitterness, fury and the need for retribution.

Nelson Mandela spent twenty seven unjust years in prison, he had every right to be angry, bitter, hate and call for retribution. He said this before going to prison, and he said it again after, when he was president....

During my lifetime I have dedicated my life to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, My Lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

While I strongly disagree with your religious and likely your political views (my neighbours are a married gay couple raising an adopted son, and he is turning out great, and I would protect them from your preaching )

I have married gay friends, and it is a conflict to me. One of them in her late fifties, knew that I was a Christian, and she asked my thoughts before she got married. I said, although I am not gay, I am not in a position to make judgements, I commit many sins, I cannot say whether my sins are better or worse than yours in the eyes of God. I struggle with the concept of marriage, it seems to have lost it's meaning, even for heterosexual couples.

I believe there is a greatest meaning of marriage, a loving relationship between one man and one woman, for life and before God, many of us fall short of this, including myself growing up in the sixties. Despite all our failings, I believe that we shall never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God

I thank you for being there for people and giving them support and a shoulder to lean on when they are in need. I do the same in my own community.

And thank you for doing likewise.

Blessings

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Aye, "With us or against us"... That's straight out of the mouth of George W. Bush.

short sighted pygo, u made one link but passed by the chain
if you looked a little further, you'd see that he was plagiarizing from yours truly:

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 (New int'l version)

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

He lost a lot of allies for America with that stance.

They'll become allies if and when they accept God's guidance, until then, it's invitation and strictly business, working on common cause where possible within the limits of Islam, other than the natural human pity which sometimes draws us to the task of putting out your hand to pull another human out, like a sort of new chance to walk aright, but it's not hunky dory "everything evil is like everything good" and "believer and infidel is the same" delusion, law abiding citizens of the kingdom of God are never equal to criminals and anarchist radicals.
Repent.

^ By this logic, then all Americans and Canadians are in responsible about acts and words of politicians? It means also all Muslims, just same what is their origin, are in the same boat. And widely, I surely am a supporter of the zionists because my country has sold weapons and other technology to Israel. Also, all Germans are nazists because some are, all Russians are communists because some are, all British are war criminals because the UK has took part to wars with the USA etc.

We all are then guilty for war crimes because most of us has some connection to some leaders or countries whose some time now or in history have attacked against other people, countries... if no other connection then just we happen to born in the same country or race.

Br Abz, Islam teaches that we all are in responsible only our own sins. We don´t have to be in charge of acts of others like leaders of the countries we live.

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

I know you are passionate about the injustice done against Muslims in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, as am I, and also Pygoscelis, we are not against your cause. Muslims need to work together with people of other faiths and no faith in the fight against injustice.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto

Pygo never did what you are accusing.

Bro, accuse someone for something he has never done is prohibited in Islam.

Errr.... i was asking pygo, it would be a lot better if you allowed him to respond to his own comments - or are you a devotee that memorizes his every post and analyses them for intent?

for clarification pygo, i refer to the comments where pygo asks how one could blame others for attacks against Muslims when Muslims were so into intolerant or superior minded or support armed Islamic revolutionary groups.
my own observations at the time indicated a clever method of coercing Muslims into false compromise, in psychology it's called generalization and via association where they drop an essential part of their faith for fear of being labelled.
it wasn't pygo claiming that he himself would carry it out, it was the casual, "then can you blame such & such" or "no wonder such & such happens to Muslims".
thing is that i was asking pygo so please refrain from chiming in until he has had his say.
i am certainly not going to do a full post crawl based on an uninformed side jab from someoneother than the person commenting.
And the fact that you say "prohibited in Islam" shines a light on your state of mind, prohibited by God means prohibited by God.
It doesn't make it lawful in atheism lol.


associative learning

occurs when we make a connection, or an association, between two events.


Conditioning

is the process of learning these associations


classical conditioning

organisms learn the association between two stimuli. As a result of this association, organisms learn to anticipate events.

lightning is associated with thunder and regularly precedes it. Thus, when we see lightning, we anticipate that we will hear thunder soon afterward.


operant conditioning

organisms learn the association between a behavior and a consequence, such as a reward.As a result of this association, organisms learn to increase behaviors that are followed by rewards and to decrease behaviors that are followed by punishment.

children are likely to repeat their good manners if their parents reward them with candy after they have shown good manners. Also, if children's bad manners are followed by scolding words and harsh glances by parents, the children are less likely to repeat the bad manners.*

Greetings and peace be with you azc;

I know Muslims have every right to be angry, I am deeply disturbed that America dropped twenty three thousand bombs last year on mainly Muslim countries. I live in the UK, and I am against our country's involvement in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq. But you cannot fight evil with more evil, any solution that needs guns will lead to more injustice.

Very few people have the vision of Nelson Mandela, he came out of prison after twenty seven years, he said he had to leave his anger behind in prison, his vision was towards peace with the people who wrongfully imprisoned him.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

Eric man, you need to read the Quran again if you haven't already.
In human events, there has to be a positive and lawful deterrent to criminal invasions of the lands and properties of those who are wronged, efforts of dawah and toothy grins alone fall flat on the deaf ears of the infidel weapons, oil and usury barons who's habit has become the usurping, lying, then unlawfully invading and massacring, and i'm sure you don't believe that a government would run without lawful deterrents.
Nelson mandela and gandhi are examples of one side of character, they are not valid, stable and all-round examples of the model required in the global climate of infidel invasion.
Would you use dawah and grins alone in front of gog and maghen they invade and destroy?
I did sia bouncer/door supervisor security training in the u.k, they train you to raise your voice to the level of the aggressor and then lower it in notches as things stabilize.
people have to know that they can't invade iraq or syria based on utter lies, massacre millions, and then have tv pundits calmly discussing agency "failings" (as if they weren't instructed to build a false case), while peppering and seasoning discussions with comments like "terrorist" "al qaeda" "we need the oil" before a passive public that's itching to hear the sports results.
They need to know that repercussions take place.

To defeat evil, on has to fight evil.. To defeat aggression, one has to fight aggression. But how does one fight these thing?

Many times, preaching peace and mercy, won't detter the agressors, or the evildoers.. One has to crack down harshly on those who do wrong, and give them a lesson. Be harsh, yet still level headed, don't be taken by your emotions, but use your brain. To defeat evil, you fight with a greater good, overpowering evil.

But, please, USE WISDOM, if VIOLENCE, won't solve anything, don't do it....
Violence in the cause of evil and injustice, is oppressive.

Violence, in order to attain peace and justice, is reasonable, unless there is a more peaceful option, then no it is unreasonable... Sometimes, dialogue, won't solve anything, then what? We beat some sense into the guy.

Fighting the tyrants, yet attacking the civilians, is corwadice. Unless, the civilians attack first. In Islam, you can not attack, women, or children, or old men, or those who don't participate in war / isn't responsible for the conflict etc. AFAIK. You are not allowed to mutiliate dead bodies, cut down trees, or kill animals, or destroy crops.

May Allah forgive me for whatever I said of wrong.

Consider it. Eric is a conservative Christian street preacher. I am an atheist humanist. We may be each other's nemesis in other contexts, yet here we both are, on a Muslim forum, both seeking to understand Muslims, and having great sympathy for them in the face of the attacks we have seen against them. We are both aghast and horrified at what has happened to innocent human beings who happen to be believers in Islam. Consider Ardianto, Search, and Sister Herb. They are three compassionate and good hearted Muslims, who have become our friends, who we would do what we can to protect from haters like Donald Trump, and who speak out on this forum in agreement with two kafir and against a fellow Muslim (or purported Muslim) in in that they share our orientation of love for humanity, regardless of religious, national, or ideological difference. This is what gives me hope that we may find peaceful coexistence. This is the song of the doves.

But then you have the hawks. You have Donald Trump who wants to deport all muslims from America. You have George W. Bush who launched invasions, made up lies about weapons of mass destruction, and called it a "crusade". You have the pastor who organized "Burn a Quran Day" just to insult Muslims. You have people like Ann Coulter who says that the only way we should tolerate and be peaceful towards Muslims is if they give up Islam and become Christian. And you have people like Abz here who says the only way Muslims should tolerate non-muslims and be peaceful towards them is if they become Muslims.

Abz, I will explain what you ask me to above. I was writing in reaction to you saying, as you often have, that the only way you will tolerate non-Muslims like myself or Eric is if we become Muslims. We are not going to become Muslims. I couldn't even if I wanted to. I don't believe your Allah exists. I can't make myself believe something I don't. That turns your statement into one of unconditional hostility. You declare yourself my enemy and there is nothing I can do about it.

When you say such things, you directly play into the hands of people like Donald Trump, who think the way you do, in a tribal us versus them mindset, broadbrushing all Muslims as one. They brush people like Sister Herb, Ardianto, and Search with your words, and justify the aggression of the anti-Muslim hawks with your words.

What are people like Eric and I to say at that point? How are we to sway other non-Muslims away from thinking like them? How are we to sway them to stand with us to protect our Muslim friends? We can and do say that Muslims are not hostile, that Muslims don't hate us, that they are not terrorists, that they shouldn't deport all Muslims from America, that we shouldn't "destroy you before you destroy us". We do say all of these things, but they fall on deaf ears, when certain Muslims scream out what you do, that you will seek to destroy us and really ARE a hostile threat, and that you will remain so no matter what, until we either adopt your religion or destroy you.

How do you feel when people like Ann Coulter say that we shouldn't tolerate or be peaceful towards you unless you give up Islam, accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour, and become Christian? How do you react to that? Is there any reasoning with her? Is she rational? How do you feel and how do you react when Richard Dawkins calls Islam a disease of the mind in need of a cure? How do you feel when Sam Harris broadbrushes all Muslims as hateful and violent? Can you not see that you are doing the exact same thing?

How would you feel and react if you were told that heterosexuality is an abomination unto a God you don't believe even exists, and that therefore you must either go through conversion therapy to be made homosexual, live deep in the closet lest you be accused of "pushing the heterosexual agenda", or be hunted down and murdered? Again, can you not see that you are doing exactly that in your posts about homosexuality?

format_quote Originally Posted by Serinity

But, please, USE WISDOM, if VIOLENCE, won't solve anything, don't do it....
Violence in the cause of evil and injustice, is oppressive.

Indeed. And violence should be the LAST resort. Not the first. I urge all who read this to read the thread I posted yesterday about the Canadian couple in Brittish Colombia and the friendship they have formed with Syrian refugees. I urge you to stand back to back with those across tribal lines. When Imams, Pastors, Rabis, and Atheists all stand together in calling for peace, it undermines the us vs them thinking that is the basis of so many of the evils in this world. Look at how children play together, blissfully unaware of racism, religious hatreds, etc.

Only sociopaths lack empathy, and only psychopathic sociopaths want to hurt other human beings just for the sake of it. Dropping bombs, cutting off heads, blowing up buildings, are not actions we tend towards without dehumanization and broadbrushing of the other. The western politicians who order the dropping of the bombs only get the political will to do that by the fearmongering and broadbrushing that they do of those they want to bomb. The way to stop them is to undercut their support, and the way to do that is to undercut us vs them thinking and stand together across tribal lines. Ghandi and Mandela were right.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Indeed. And violence should be the LAST resort. Not the first. I urge all who read this to read the thread I posted yesterday about the Canadian couple in Brittish Colombia and the friendship they have formed with Syrian refugees. I urge you to stand back to back with those across tribal lines. When Imams, Pastors, Rabis, and Atheists all stand together in calling for peace, it undermines the us vs them thinking that is the basis of so many of the evils in this world. Look at how children play together, blissfully unaware of racism, religious hatreds, etc.

Only sociopaths lack empathy, and only psychopathic sociopaths want to hurt other human beings just for the sake of it. Dropping bombs, cutting off heads, blowing up buildings, are not actions we tend towards without dehumanization and broadbrushing of the other. The western politicians who order the dropping of the bombs only get the political will to do that by the fearmongering and broadbrushing that they do of those they want to bomb. The way to stop them is to undercut their support, and the way to do that is to undercut us vs them thinking and stand together across tribal lines. Ghandi and Mandela were right.

the underlying problem, is religious brainwashing and confusion.

Bottom line is, as humans, what hurts you, hurts me. Unless we come to understand that, common ground can't be achieved.

Understanding the Quran in ink, is not enough. Without proper understandings of others' pains, we may become judgmental. Not saying, Allah forbid, the Quran isn't enough, but that we lack experience and wisdom.

People, before we begin to understand the Quran, we need to be retaught what it means to be human, and how to be human, cause this quality of being humane, has been degrading...
Don't judge people by their religion etc. Judge by character.

May Allah forgive me. Ameen