Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterbury (OP)
Look at this clown =_=!. I'm sorry brother
@Eric H
, but i lose with each day respect towards Christian preachers and bishops and down that road. "People pleasers" but not God pleasers.
"The Archbishop seemed to suggest it would be hypocritical for Muslim leaders to refuse any correlation between the terrorist acts and Islam, and that it would be akin to saying Christians had no involvement in the Srebrenica massacre of more than 8,000 Muslims at the hands of the Bosnian Serb Army. “I don’t think it is getting us anywhere, just like saying Srebrenica had nothing to do with Christianity,”
How on earth does Islam say go kill innocent Muslims? Has he lost it completely? Or even blaming Christianity for Srebrenica massacre. These people are the cause religion is being looked at in such a bad way. Because they take responsibility as if it is Christianity or Islam at fault for such insane people. These people who have such a say in these matters are in my eyes even MORE evil than the ones who are doing the killing. Because of such people green light is given for secular governments to ban more and more religious things. People even being prosecuted because they follow a religion in the end. Such people are not only a disgrace to Christianity, but also to religion in general. As if such evil people with intention say such things as they have a hidden agenda to get rid of the religion by speaking on behalf of religion. Somebody who truly believes what he believes and KNOWS AND UNDERSTANDS what his religion is all about..how on earth can they say my religion has to do with such evil acts of killing innocent people?
======News article==========
Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby has urged faith leaders to take action against religion being adopted as a pretext to commit mass terrorist atrocities. Speaking in the aftermath of the London Bridge terrorist attack on Saturday evening, which killed seven and injured almost 50, Welby said a fundamental lack of religious knowledge is hindering authorities’ attempts to counter the theology behind acts of terrorism.
“They are often people who are unable to put themselves in the shoes of religious believers and understand a way of looking at the world that says that this defines your whole life, every single aspect of who you are and what you are,” he told the BBC Today program on Monday. The Church of England’s highest cleric called on all leaders, religious and secular, to acknowledge the ideological nature of “religiously motivated violence,” as failing to do so would likely make it “impossible” to overcome. Welby said religion has been “twisted and misused” throughout history to accommodate violence. “We have got to say that if something happens within our own faith tradition we need to take responsibility for countering that.” The Archbishop seemed to suggest it would be hypocritical for Muslim leaders to refuse any correlation between the terrorist acts and Islam, and that it would be akin to saying Christians had no involvement in the Srebrenica massacre of more than 8,000 Muslims at the hands of the Bosnian Serb Army. “I don’t think it is getting us anywhere, just like saying Srebrenica had nothing to do with Christianity,” he said. Although he praised the “extraordinary” condemnation of the London Bridge attack by every “significant” Muslim leader and body, he said that Islam is missing a “structure."
“From an outside perspective, one of the issues about dealing with Islam is that there is not much of a structure. There isn’t a pope or a bishop that you can go to and say these are the leaders. “There will always be particular groups which take views that are different from the mainstream but what is clear over the weekend is the extraordinary level of condemnation by every significant Muslim leader we know and every significant Muslim body we know.” It follows the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) condemnation of the attack in the “strongest terms.” “I am appalled and angered by the terrorist attacks at London Bridge and Borough Market, in my home city,” Harun Khan, Secretary General of the MCB, said in a statement. “These acts of violence were truly shocking and I condemn them in the strongest terms. “Muslims everywhere are outraged and disgusted at these cowards who once again have destroyed the lives of our fellow Britons. “That this should happen in this month of Ramadan, when many Muslims were praying and fasting only goes to show that these people respect neither life nor faith.” It also comes as 130 imams and religious leaders have refused to offer Islam’s traditional funeral prayer to the perpetrators of the London Bridge and Borough Market attack, despite it usually being performed for all people, regardless of their actions. The MCB justified its decision on the basis that such “indefensible actions” are “completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.”
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
If you as an individual did that, obviously people would think you were crazy. But imagine if hundreds of young men did the same over a period of many years. Then the UK would indeed have a problem that it could no longer deny.
Look at how you "twist" things. Just because some sect in UK stands up and starts doing that, still UK is not at fault. Indeed UK has to start hunting those kind of people, but that doesn't mean it is because of UK such people exist you know. That is why i said you have been member of this forum for such a long time, but still you fail to understand even the most basic thing of Islam and what Islam is about. In the time of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) the first one with such mentality emerged and ali (ra) the cousin of the prophet said hearing for the prophet that the LAST one with such mentality will be joining the anti-christ. In other words..these people will exist through out the history. As we even witness them today. I've had even the opportunity to chat with two of them online. And you cannot reason with them. You give them strong hadith..they still reject it..you give them Qur'an verses that don't even need to be interpreted as it is clear as it can be yet they do not agree with you.
I asked one what if i kill your son what does Islamic law say? He replied..then i can kill your son. (eye for an eye, tooth for an tooth). i said dude..if i kill your son (killing of an innocent soul) i am responsible, what has my son to do with my crime? because if you kill my son then you also have killed a innocent soul. He said ..NO...i have studied shari'a law and i know what the ruling is. With such people one cannot reason. I mean i can say something and you can say well you are wrong based on this and this and this..i can look at the proof you give me and see that indeed i am wrong and thank you for correcting me. However if you give me all the proof there is an still i keep doing evil. There is only 1 way left..that is to kill me.
I can even grab the law of the country and twist some things and say you should be killed. However still the countries law and way of life isn't responsible. As such evil and crazy people will always keep on existing. What do Muslims say about such people..go kill them but in NO way do we say they are walking the path of Islam and what Islam says you should walk upon.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
While you have been a member of this forum for, let's see, three months or so. In fact I think this is the first time I remember conversing with you. Pleased to meet you.
During the years I've been on the forum I've been fortunate enough to learn a great deal about Islam from the many people I've spoken to here. You have obviously read all those conversations and formed a very clear picture of the state of my knowledge on the subject.
As i already said even IF somebody uses such quotes and such practices doesn't make them to follow certain way of life. If i would drink beer, talk like a English guy, behave like one, but do certain things doesn't make me one of them. The Uk government indeed has to hunt me and people like me down and kill them or put them in jail. Because that is defaming certain kind of people. The Muslim world however is run by dictators that only pursue their own political interests as we have seen that ISIS has been supported by all those countries. However again, nothing to do with Islam and what Islam stands for. If you read even certain hadith Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) DOES NOT say certain groups will emerge from MY Ummah, however he says certain groups will rise that speak the same language have certain attributes..their names like this and that.. In other words he also does not acknowledge they practice Islam. So you should realize that and not look at it so black and white.
Another example, smiling towards other people despite their religion is endorsed to do and is a good deed. However if you as a atheist also starts doing that..that doesn't mean you suddenly have become a Muslim. In this day and age many people WEAR Arabic clothes..have appearance of Muslims (beard for example), have names like other Muslims..but have very little to do with Islam. A Muslim is noticed by his actions not by his appearance. If you would see me on the street..you would see i am from the Middle East but i have not shaved my mustache or have a beard that has a certain length or wear those long Arabic dresses. If you converse with me you would notice i am not harsh or anything in that sense. I joke, i laugh, i interact. I can have all kind of conversations.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Thank you for lecturing me on the importance of learning. (I'm a teacher. )
No you are not a teacher, a teacher knows something, you are still a student, just like me. What you know you MAY think is a lot but it is still tip of the iceberg. By profession you teach certain curriculum to your students but you still could even learn from your own students. Based on religion you are still a student and has a lot to learn. Do not get offended, because i said you have to learn a lot more. Gaining knowledge never ends.
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Maybe you would like to answer the three questions in my previous post. Have you at least considered them?
I have answered them here above. You as a teacher so far i noticed you thinking within the box. In other words very black and white and how society has thought you. Life and things in general aren't so black and white as how you depict them. Before replying to this, ponder a bit more what i am talking about by saying you think very black and white. I am not trying to "talk something good" absolutely not. I acknowledge the problem and i also gave the solution to this problem. Education is usually the key but not everybody is open to education. Which leaves only 1 solution and that is wipe them out. Because such people with such mentality not only harm themselves, but also the people that follow that religion and also people of other faiths as well.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
terminology...
responsibility..
the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"women bear children and take responsibility for childcare"[/COLOR]
2.
the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something.
[COLOR=#878787 !important]"the group has claimed responsibility for a string of murders"[/COLOR]
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
This is interesting idea (from the first post - sorry, lazy to quote):
"From an outside perspective, one of the issues about dealing with Islam is that there is not much of a structure. There isn’t a pope or a bishop that you can go to and say these are the leaders."
Now, when the next time someone who is from Christian background makes some crime or terrorist act, should we go to meet a pope or bishop and require him to be held accountable about those acts? Would he carry his responsibility or woud he just say "not my business - I didn´t order him/them to do that act"?
Why then Muslim leaders, whose haven´t preached extremism, should be in responsible because someone acts against their teachings?
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
Some US soldiers have seen the horrors and have started speaking out against US government. I COULD even excuse many back in 2003 and invading of Iraq as there wasn't enough ways to find out the truth. However now we are living in 2017. You me and almost anybody in the he west that joins the army of those terrorist governments have no excuse. You cannot say I didn't know.
There are people that STILL believe 9/11 was done by some guys in some caves in Afghanistan. While even professors have concluded and spoken out that what was going on with that he towers couldn''t happen because of just some planes. The problem rather is ..some people just don't want to think and question.
That is why I just recently concluded that we are living in such bizarre times and there are some people among us that see so many corrupt things (minor signs)..why is the fitrah not kicking in and questioning things? These people are just lost and will not question or stand up against anything. There are seriously people who fall of their bike or something happens with them and other people just walk by or just stand still and are looking as if something to entertain them selves. People are fighting nobody is trying to stop the fight..people have an accident nobody is trying to help or call an ambulance.
So the people right now that join those armies right now have no excuse to say they were ignorant about it. I already have used this example but look at that criminal in the movie "American Sniper".
Being ignorant in these times is no longer a "accident" rather a choice. Just look at wat Allah has given humanity to use (internet). No longer be confused of what is going on as I can read other people's opinions and perspectives. I can think for myself and ask those people for proof and they can give me their proof. All while they might live on the other side of the globe.
if being ignorant is no choice you have to say that all non-muslims will burn in hell for all eternity after they die and they do not have the excuse of 'i didn't know' but i bet you wouldn't say that
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
if being ignorant is no choice you have to say that all non-muslims will burn in hell for all eternity after they die and they do not have the excuse of 'i didn't know' but i bet you wouldn't say that
No because i do not know exactly what they harbor in their hearts. However now a days MANY people..they just DO NOT CARE to look up things. I am NOT kidding you. I myself have a IT-background and when somebody asks my help and you want to teach them how to do something on their own for in the future..as easy as it is ..few mouse clicks..they just do NOT care.
I mean they will often have to deal with that problem again in the future, but just want somebody else to fix it for them each time. Then i have tried to look from another perspective of MAYBE they are too busy ..that also is not true as they have time to read anything and everything..and do anything and everything..but just do not care for that thing you try to teach them. A acquaintance of mine i gave a copy of the Qur'an like i think back in 2014. We are now in 2017. That acquaintance of mine has time for reading other books..doing other things..but reading the Qur'an? You see they find all kind of excuses but in reality what they want to tell you is..I DO NOT CARE..JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!!. They are just content with how their life is and what they do.
There are also other people that have a opinion. They come to you and say all kind of things that are incorrect..like FGM, honor killings, no free opinion/speech etc...however when you give them proof that says exactly the opposite to it, they just dishonestly want to brand you as a liar. When you say have you read the Qur'an..they say yeah, well part of it. Then you suggest to them to go and read the whole Qur'an. However they just DO NOT CARE!!.
So me saying "being ignorant is a choice in these days"..i indeed stick to that. Because not caring is the root cause of it which staying ignorant is the symptom of that root cause. The fitrah already is argument enough against you, me and every other person on earth, however Allah's mercy to still give us more ayaat (signs) and things that make us ponder.
So those guys that "choose" to stay ignorant will have HUGE argument against them on the Day of Judgement. You have to know that on the Day of Judgement the loop holes are closed you know. Everything you and i do can be used against us.
Things these days have been made SOOOO EASY when it comes to gaining knowledge. My own family (lives in the Middle East)..they just DO NOT CARE how certain things work..and watching tv to them is more important. They also have internet. We think "ignorant" as something of not being able to find out the truth. How? In the sense of not having the means to finding the truth. As in the past people had to go great distances to find the truth or just nobody being there to tell them the truth. I believe on the Day of Judgement such people will have this argument as they saying there was no Messenger to convey the message of Islam to them. In other words..i had no means to find out the right path.
However me..you.. even Christians you see go to houses to tell about God..yet many people just say.."stay away i do not want to hear it".
This reminds me of the story of Prophet Nuh (as).
"And indeed, every time I invited them that You may forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears, covered themselves with their garments, persisted, and were arrogant with [great] arrogance." Qur'an 71:7
"Then I invited them publicly." Qur'an 71:8
"Then I announced to them and [also] confided to them secretly" Qur'an 71:9
How come Allah used EXACT those bold-made words in the Qur'an? "They put their fingers in their ears"?? Just because Allah felt like it? Or has it certain wisdom or meaning for us to understand? I say it has certain meaning/wisdom behind it. So i say even if there is something or someone that is there to give you the message of Islam, but you turning away not wanting to listen..one has no argument. Indeed the latter ayaat show that we need to be persistent until we die or they die. However when they die and still did "not care"..on the Day of Judgement we will be testifying against them.
Also when looking at the definition of "arrogance"
"unpleasantly proud and behaving as if you are more important than, or know more than, other people"
When somebody does not care what you have to say, this means what you have to say is not important for them to listen to and what they know is more important than what you have to say.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 06-07-2017 at 03:47 PM.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
No because i do not know exactly what they harbor in their hearts. However now a days MANY people..they just DO NOT CARE to look up things. I am NOT kidding you. I myself have a IT-background and when somebody asks my help and you want to teach them how to do something on their own for in the future..as easy as it is ..few mouse clicks..they just do NOT care.
I mean they will often have to deal with that problem again in the future, but just want somebody else to fix it for them each time. Then i have tried to look from another perspective of MAYBE they are too busy ..that also is not true as they have time to read anything and everything..and do anything and everything..but just do not care for that thing you try to teach them. A acquaintance of mine i gave a copy of the Qur'an like i think back in 2014. We are now in 2017. That acquaintance of mine has time for reading other books..doing other things..but reading the Qur'an? You see they find all kind of excuses but in reality what they want to tell you is..I DO NOT CARE..JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!!. They are just content with how their life is and what they do.
There are also other people that have a opinion. They come to you and say all kind of things that are incorrect..like FGM, honor killings, no free opinion/speech etc...however when you give them proof that says exactly the opposite to it, they just dishonestly want to brand you as a liar. When you say have you read the Qur'an..they say yeah, well part of it. Then you suggest to them to go and read the whole Qur'an. However they just DO NOT CARE!!.
So me saying "being ignorant is no choice"..i indeed stick to that. Because not caring is the root cause of it which staying ignorant is the symptom of that root cause. The fitrah already is argument enough against you, me and every other person on earth, however Allah's mercy to still give us more ayaat and things that make us ponder.
So those guys that "choose" to stay ignorant will have HUGE argument against them on the Day of Judgement. You have to know that on the Day of Judgement the loop holes are closed you know. Everything you and i do can be used against us.
Things these days have been made SOOOO EASY when it comes to gaining knowledge. My own family (lives in the Middle East)..they just DO NOT CARE how certain things work..and watching tv to them is more important. They also have internet. We think "ignorant" as something of not being able to find out the truth. How? In the sense of not having the means to finding the truth. As in the past people had to go great distances to find the truth or just nobody being there to tell them the truth. I believe on the Day of Judgement such people will have this argument as they saying there was no Messenger to convey the message of Islam to them. In other words..i had no means to find out the right path.
However me..you.. even Christians you see go to houses to tell about God..yet many people just say.."stay away i do not want to hear it".
This reminds me of the story of Prophet Nuh (as).
"And indeed, every time I invited them that You may forgive them, they put their fingers in their ears, covered themselves with their garments, persisted, and were arrogant with [great] arrogance." Qur'an 71:7
"Then I invited them publicly." Qur'an 71:8
"Then I announced to them and [also] confided to them secretly" Qur'an 71:9
How come Allah used EXACT those bold-made words in the Qur'an? "They put their fingers in their ears"?? Just because Allah felt like it? Or has it certain wisdom or meaning for us to understand? I say it has certain meaning/wisdom behind it. So i say even if there is something or someone that is there to give you the message of Islam, but you turning away not wanting to listen..one has no argument. Indeed the latter ayaat show that we need to be persistent until we die or they die. However when they die and still did "not care"..on the Day of Judgement we will be testifying against them.
you dont know what non-muslims harbour in their hearts but you do know what all muslim do?
and not only the kuffar thing but with muslims too; which ever we believe to be the right sect, we have to presume the rest of the muslims are evil and will go to hell and cannot use the 'ignorance' rule to give them benifit of doubt so really 'ignorance' is the only caveat we have to assume the best of them; and thats a sunnah too, to always assume the best of Muslims rather than the worst
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
you dont know what non-muslims harbour in their hearts but you do know what all muslim do?
and not only the kuffar thing but with muslims too; which ever we believe to be the right sect, we have to presume the rest of the muslims are evil and will go to hell and cannot use the 'ignorance' rule to give them benifit of doubt so really 'ignorance' is the only caveat we have to assume the best of them; and thats a sunnah too, to always assume the best of Muslims rather than the worst
I can agree to you with "assume the best of them" to me is to people who are ignorant. For example. There are people who are Muslim but very nationalistic and they seriously are NOT aware of nationalism being prohibited. So when you educate them or TRY to educate them..they arrogantly turn away from you and still hold to that view. You give them Qur'an..you give them sahih ahadith..yet all the same. Me assuming the best for these types of people, well everything has limits. Not being educated on something is one thing, but KNOWING IT but still sticking to it..shows arrogance.
Saying i do not know what they harbor in their hearts is saying exactly who will end up in hell fire and who not. Somebody for example might be looking arrogant, but just have some personal problems at the moment, just leave them.
There are Ahmadiyya that like somebody in that topic back then said, do things because their parents say..however they not believing such things. Many Muslims now a days have also fallen in the same category that Allah has warned us about.
Often we read things like "we do what our forefathers had done"..However just because your forefathers had done that, doesn't mean they were right. For example, forcing a girl to marry some guy. Just because your parents and grandparents did, doesn't mean it is oke and according to Islamic rulings. That is for example also a reason why i back then left Islam as i never really knew or even understand what Islam was truly about.
So we often also forget things within context. These days i would be stabbed in the back if i gave certain people who call themselves Muslims but follow nationalism this "assuming the best". As this has done in the past also.
Back in Medina, people were united and strived the same goal. However these days, a certain group strives a haram goal and one must assume the best for such people even when they are knowledgeable about it.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 06-07-2017 at 04:08 PM.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I think what Justin Welby is saying, is that leading Muslim imams should denounce ISIS's interpretation of Islam.
As if any of those leading Muslim imams have said that their (ISIS) interpretation is part of Islam =_=!. How many of us even are shouting so to say that it is NOT part of Islam what they are doing, yet media does not gain views if people do good things or denounce such things being part of Islam. How many media are coming on this forum and quoting the Muslims saying the things ISIS is doing is NOT part of Islam?
However you sound also a bit hypocritical by saying
"The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !)."
Yet not doing the same with Islam. These people that kill innocent people are not doing for Islamic reasons, but out of hatred. Please do not have double standards.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I can't think of any Christian terrorism - that is terrorism committed in the name of Christianity - in the world today.
The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !).
it's the same crusades going on; before the protestant reformation they called it, crusade, now they're pulling a fast one, they are hiding behind, 'seperation of state and religion'!
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
I can agree to you with "assume the best of them" to me is to people who are ignorant. For example. There are people who are Muslim but very nationalistic and they seriously are NOT aware of nationalism being prohibited. So when you educate them or TRY to educate them..they arrogantly turn away from you and still hold to that view. You give them Qur'an..you give them sahih ahadith..yet all the same. Me assuming the best for these types of people, well everything has limits. Not being educated on something is one thing, but KNOWING IT but still sticking to it..shows arrogance.
Saying i do not know what they harbor in their hearts is saying exactly who will end up in hell fire and who not. Somebody for example might be looking arrogant, but just have some personal problems at the moment, just leave them.
There are Ahmadiyya that like somebody in that topic back then said, do things because their parents say..however they not believing such things. Many Muslims now a days have also fallen in the same category that Allah has warned us about.
Often we read things like "we do what our forefathers had done"..However just because your forefathers had done that, doesn't mean they were right. For example, forcing a girl to marry some guy. Just because your parents and grandparents did, doesn't mean it is oke and according to Islamic rulings. That is for example also a reason why i back then left Islam as i never really knew or even understand what Islam was truly about.
So we often also forget things within context. These days i would be stabbed in the back if i gave certain people who call themselves Muslims but follow nationalism this "assuming the best". As this has done in the past also.
Back in Medina, people were united and strived the same goal. However these days, a certain group strives a haram goal and one must assume the best for such people even when they are knowledgeable about it.
It's not a matter of knowing the evidences a 'moderate' muslim uses to argue against them but evidences/arguments must win over their counter evidences/arguments etc; i think a comparison can be drawn with when a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam as Allah's mercy is same for all; not just non-muslims; now i'm sure you heard the opinion that a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam only when he knows it is the truth?, i.e, the message has become compelling to him but yet he rejects it
and i'm sure you know that simply giving a non-muslim 'proofs' such as Quranic verses, miracles, etc is not enough in these confusing times; for many one has to take ages just proving there is a God to them first as they've been very sophisticatedly deceived with the evolution theory; a muslim scholar once told of this good hearted non-muslim man who attended his classes for a whole 8 months; he had many questions that needed clarifying and finally after 8 months he was convinced of the truth of islam
now lets say a mainstream muslim is astray and a salafi is righlty guided; have you seen what happens when they 'debate'?; a salafi will give evidences but the mainstream will have counter evidences and arguments of his own; it takes time for a person to gradually be overwhelmed with the right evidences and arguments and many times the rightly guided muslims are not able to present this evidence properly!; like a shaykh said once, it is the light of faith that gives the dawah and not the person himself and this light is dwindling in most of us!
So end of day it all comes down to only Allah knowing the heart ... And it should be left at that and our duty is to think the best of a muslim apart from deviant scholars maybe as they should know better and once a deviant dies, we hope for the best
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
It's not a matter of knowing the evidences a 'moderate' muslim uses to argue against them but evidences/arguments must win over their counter evidences/arguments etc; i think a comparison can be drawn with when a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam as Allah's mercy is same for all; not just non-muslims; now i'm sure you heard the opinion that a non-muslim is guilty of rejecting islam only when he knows it is the truth?, i.e, the message has become compelling to him but yet he rejects it
and i'm sure you know that simply giving a non-muslim 'proofs' such as Quranic verses, miracles, etc is not enough in these confusing times; for many one has to take ages just proving there is a God to them first as they've been very sophisticatedly deceived with the evolution theory; a muslim scholar once told of this good hearted non-muslim man who attended his classes for a whole 8 months; he had many questions that needed clarifying and finally after 8 months he was convinced of the truth of islam
now lets say a mainstream muslim is astray and a salafi is righlty guided; have you seen what happens when they 'debate'?; a salafi will give evidences but the mainstream will have counter evidences and arguments of his own; it takes time for a person to gradually be overwhelmed with the right evidences and arguments and many times the rightly guided muslims are not able to present this evidence properly!; like a shaykh said once, it is the light of faith that gives the dawah and not the person himself and this light is dwindling in most of us!
So end of day it all comes down to only Allah knowing the heart ... And it should be left at that and our duty is to think the best of a muslim apart from deviant scholars maybe as they should know better and once a deviant dies, we hope for the best
I agree with you that it is all about evidence, but what my argument is, is when the other side has no evidence against your evidence or thinks for a second and says well you got a point and let me think about it..then it shows dishonesty. They just stick to what they believe in. I also agree with you it takes time as with the story of Nuh(as) we can see that he was persistent and did whatever was in his power. Also yes, being a kafir is one who rejects the message while knowing it or when he takes up arms to physically fight you even though he might not know the message.
In these times of confusion people yes they need time and evidence, however what we also can see is A LOT OF ARROGANCE. So it is not simply just because of confusion, rather there is much of arrogance with people. Majority of the people live in their own little world and it is all about ..me..me..me. Allah conflicted a acquaintance of mine with cancer (although a rare one but curable) however at that time that he did not know it was curable i later on asked him have you back then ever thought about death and God etc. etc. he replied not really. He said all he learned from it was the little things in life becoming more important. A neighbor of his a few years ago was inflicted with cancer and alhamdulillah cured and i ask had a brief talk with him he also replied the same as looking at the small things in life that have become more important.
I mean in these times it is HARD to get through to somebody because people simply have put religion in the closet or better said they have thrown it in the bin. Media has programmed them to such a extend that they do not care to be "different" from others. A friend of mine once told me that he spoke to a person and asked that person "If you knew something is wrong would you speak against it?". That person replied to his question "no, i would not i do not want to be different as it takes to much energy to go against people..i would just do the same despite knowing it is wrong".
We have all kind of things Allah programmed in to us like when seeing something evil, we reject it. When seeing somebody needs help..we automatically want to go and help. When we see something we become curious about it. For example, Islam is depicted as the origin of evil and internet is at our finger tips. The curiosity in us for sure wants to know what is going on. Yet many people just do NOT care. Off course on the Day of Judgement many people we have come in contact with in this life will testify against us if we have not conveyed the message of Islam persistently or even shown the Muslim character. However just like Nuh(as) if we have done that but they just did NOT CARE..we will be testifying against them. So even not knowing doesn't mean you are exempted from it under the category of "ignorant".
We tend to categorize people who were ignorant all together under the same label, while the category has certain sub-labels as ignorant but not wanting or caring to know or ignorant but had no means to find out the truth. In the story of the people of Nuh(as) it clearly shows despite Nuh(as) trying and trying and trying..those people just do not want to listen or hear him talk. You get what i am trying to tell you?
Do however know that we do not know which people (who are ignorant) belong to which category. So for us just try to convey the message continuously until we end up in our grave.
Last edited by Simple_Person; 06-08-2017 at 06:58 AM.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
thats right brother; these christians have been murdering millions all across the middle east for last 15 years and when did we ever see the archbishop of cantebury come on tv to condemn it??? and they keep on telling us to condemn our lot!
Most Western people aren't Christians. Their governments are even less Christian.
The motives for Western military involvement in the Middle East are entirely political - one could almost say, oil-related.
Even in USA, most church leaders advised Dubya Bush NOT to invade Iraq.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by tolpuddle
Most Western people aren't Christians. Their governments are even less Christian.
The motives for Western military involvement in the Middle East are entirely political - one could almost say, oil-related.
Even in USA, most church leaders advised Dubya Bush NOT to invade Iraq.
Can you see that being ONLY peaceful is contradictory to human nature? So turning the other cheek does not work for such people in power. Such people only benefit from that "turn the other cheek" narrative. Some real action needs to be taken and influence, but US governments is too much influenced by AIPAC.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahAziz
it's the same crusades going on; before the protestant reformation they called it, crusade, now they're pulling a fast one, they are hiding behind, 'seperation of state and religion'!
The Crusades were (partly) motivated by religious faith; though politics, culture-clash, greed for land and vengefulness (for past Muslim attacks on Europe) were also powerful motives for many of the Crusaders.
I can't see how anyone can regard modern-day Western involvements in the Middle East as being even slightly motivated by religious faith; the West (especially the people running it) has been very secular (sometimes aggressively so) since about 1700 CE.
A better label to place upon modern Westerners invading the Middle East, is "Byzantines" - i.e. hard-headed secular thugs in the Roman-Byzantine tradition.
All European states - and indeed the USA - are heirs (indeed, successor-states) of the Roman Empire; the fourth and last of the empires of world history (as mentioned in the Jewish scriptures by the prophet Daniel).
Thus Rome still exists - but with the USA and European nations now fading, Rome is wending to its close; thus ushering in "The Last Days" of the world (or at least, the world as we know it).
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
Greetings and peace be with you Simple_Person;
You might be interested to read about our Bishop Philip Egan, the Catholic Bishop of Portsmouth, and his recent visit to Abu Bakr Mosque, Southampton.
MESSAGE TO MEMBERS OF THE ABU BAKR MOSQUE
Dear Friends, I thank you for the huge joy and privilege of visiting your
beautiful Abu Bakr mosque today. I am Bishop Philip Egan, the Catholic
Bishop of Portsmouth. Originally I come from Manchester and so I do ask
your prayers for the people of that city, after the terrible bombing last
week. But I live in Portsmouth and our Diocese is a big one. It has
235,000 Catholics. It covers the south coast along to Bournemouth and
stretches north to Reading and Oxford. So on behalf of all Catholic
Christians in this region, I offer you today our sincerest greetings and
prayers for a Happy Ramadan. Ramadan Mubarak!
This morning in Rome, our Pope, Pope Francis, has just sent a special
message to all our Muslim friends across the world, to assure you of our
prayers during this time of fasting, prayer and charity. The theme of his
message is Care of our Common Home. For as Catholics, we are deeply
concerned about the damage our modern lifestyles are causing to the
environment in which we live, and also the disorder these lifestyles bring
to our families and human relations. Both Muslims and Catholics believe
the Earth is holy; it belongs to God. It’s His work and so we must treat it
with respect. So let us pray that the ecological crisis humanity is facing
will call everyone in the world to a profound interior conversion, and to a
renewed care for the Earth, our common home.
Let me add one more thought. Great Britain is a highly secular society.
Yet you and I, Muslims and Christians, we are people of religion, faith and
spirituality. We believe in God, and we believe that every human being is
called to know Him, serve Him and love Him, to worship Him and to
respect Him, and to find in Him ultimate happiness. It’s our task to
witness to this in society, so that other people, those who say they have
no religion, those who say they’re not sure, those who are lost or on the
margins, can find their way home to Him. This is why I’d like to ask you
to pray also for us Christians, as we pray for you. Together, we have an
important task in society and so we need to be strong, solid, authentic in
our religion: in a word, holy. Indeed, it’s crucial for the well-being and the
future of our land, and something to think about as we prepare for the
General Election next week.
So thank you for listening. Thank you for your kind and warm welcome.
Thank you for giving me the enormous joy and privilege of saying these
few words to you in your Abu Bakr mosque. Ramadan Mubarak! Please
pray for me, and for the Catholic community here in Southampton and
across our whole diocese. We are praying for you.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by Simple_Person
As if any of those leading Muslim imams have said that their (ISIS) interpretation is part of Islam =_=!. How many of us even are shouting so to say that it is NOT part of Islam what they are doing, yet media does not gain views if people do good things or denounce such things being part of Islam. How many media are coming on this forum and quoting the Muslims saying the things ISIS is doing is NOT part of Islam?
However you sound also a bit hypocritical by saying
"The invasion of Iraq ? - by hypocrites calling themselves Christians (and for decidedly non-Christian reasons !)."
Yet not doing the same with Islam. These people that kill innocent people are not doing for Islamic reasons, but out of hatred. Please do not have double standards.
I hope to avoid double-standards.
Western leaders haven't used religious arguments to justify (or persuade the public to support) their invasions of Muslim countries, only political ones.
However, ISIS have used religious arguments to justify their activities and win-over naive young Muslims to their cause. This surely requires clerical intervention by key Muslim imams from the main Sunni countries.
Re: Muslim leaders should ‘take responsibility’ for extremism – Archbishop of Canterb
format_quote Originally Posted by tolpuddle
I hope to avoid double-standards.
Western leaders haven't used religious arguments to justify (or persuade the public to support) their invasions of Muslim countries, only political ones.
However, ISIS have used religious arguments to justify their activities and win-over naive young Muslims to their cause. This surely requires clerical intervention by key Muslim imams from the main Sunni countries.
If i am not mistaken there is something in the pledge of allegiance in US which says a country ruled under God or something like that. So the actions are if we go by that narrative also one could say is done under the name of Christianity if do not want to create double standards.
If you now say US or UK or any other western country are NOT Christian countries but Godless countries, i take by my words. However when you do say that, that is also that my mindset changes and i do not look at them as anything that is ruled according to Christians values or even something that has anything to do with God. So that is the moment that there are no double standards.
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