Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?

format_quote Originally Posted by x Maz x

Why me living in the west? cause i was deported here at a young age as I have explained and the docs good to me...Grr the Pakis didnt even get ma birthday right Peace x

How did you get deported? You can't be old enough for your Father to have supported Bhutto. Your Father was a close friend of Zia?

Pakiland wont have me ...they say me too modernised & brainwashed by the West LOL..
Your Father was a close friend of Zia? Zia wah?..Yes best friends *eyes rolly*..
Twas a joke, chillax
Peace x

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou

I often ask myself that question.



Again where is the evidence they were paying less tax than the Muslims. You assert something that the historical record shows not to be true. The Umayyads sent converts back to the land to farm - and pay taxes as if they were non-Muslims - because they could not afford the loss of revenue. Muslims did not pay much tax at all in the early Islamic state. Dhimmis did.

Protected from whom? The Muslims did a bad job of protecting Dhimmis from foreign conquest (by Muslims for instance), the bedouin, the Turks, the Mongols etc etc.



That is not true either. The Christian population in Greater Syria fell because they were persecuted. They were persecuted because the Muslims felt, with reason, that they sided with the Crusaders. Even Muslim accounts by people like Ibn Jubayr say clearly that Muslim peasants were treated better by the Crusaders than by Muslim rulers. What you say is just not based on facts.



How generous - you don't like foreign conquest of your homeland but it is OK, you can leave at any time. Rather like the Palestinians really.



Do you have any evidence of that not contained in the Quran or Hadith?

Besides it is irrelevant, we are discussing forced conversion, not the origin of the Kaba.



So are we agreed that I am right and the day before the Muslim conquest of Mecca there were no Muslims in Mecca and the day after there were no non-Muslims? Fine.

you continue as if your making a diffrence to the world dont you see wheres the answer to why your doing this?!? i mean apart from the fact that you wish to make islam look bad and just hate muslims? thats racismyou know you seem to dislike people based on where there from eg pakistan and alsohome in on any muslim or islamic action in a negative way broavo!? what a cause...

its called racism but anyhow your choice cant seem to see any other logic behind your questions or acusations but as i said at least do your research what proof apart from some old useless bnp site do you have that dimmis as YOU say were made to pay more tax???

heres some ino or you...

and as for your comments on who protected who lol muslims didnt do a good job uhmm ok!?? muslims controlled the middle east back then and they do today think that slightly shows who is the better defender and who is the attacker...rome remember them!? they were a more powerful force than even america taking the whole of europe in there stride but did you see them in the middle east!? they tried but didnt get very far...

and dont pretend to know about defending for you only know how to attack and not to defend...

as for tax....

research here -

every free male...not the children or the elderly or the women or the poor!?

yeah that sounds like a real heavy tax from greedy people man!
they sound quite intent on stealing innocents money dont they!!!

its called the young men could fight to defend but they did not and were not forced instead were made to contribute to the state where they lived!

yeah your right that sounds sooooo bad!?

they were based on wealth the rich payed more and the poor paid nothing.

do some research before stating false facts...

you say the muslims paid less????

what with there lives!??? in the armies that protected that state and via the zakat that was to be paid per head of the family members !????

what you on about get your facts straight!

you want links!? i i give you a muslim site you will start your drabble so heres wikipedia instead that is basic but preety much accurate..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

and zakat -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat


and what you wanted proof on other details aswell!??

Ibn Jubayr? yeah he did say how well they treated muslims he was also however made forcefuly to drink seven cups of alcohol by the leader of that land in the first place that made him set out to return to the holy land to vanquish what he had been forced to do??

indeed he was treated well oh and the peasents thanx for letting me know that...

shall i just do research for you all the time hei gou ??

should i waste any further time of mine on your baseless facts!?? no thanks mate i will give you a better idea why dont you do research yourself beore calling things fake and putting lies in place of them!?

go do your own research and if you cant be bothered then stop talking about that which you know nothing about!? simple..

no ones gonna bother with an answer soon as your just acting on impulse you have no basis whatsoever!?

format_quote Originally Posted by Rou

and as for your comments on who protected who lol muslims didnt do a good job uhmm ok!?? muslims controlled the middle east back then and they do today think that slightly shows who is the better defender and who is the attacker...rome remember them!? they were a more powerful force than even america taking the whole of europe in there stride but did you see them in the middle east!? they tried but didnt get very far...

and dont pretend to know about defending for you only know how to attack and not to defend...

You know, I am sure you have a point here, but I am having trouble working out what you are saying. No, Muslims did not do a good job. They let the bedouin run riot all over North Africa with horrendous environmental problems we still see today. They did not keep the Turks or the Mongols out. Under Muslim rule the non-Muslim populations have declined to virtually nothing.

as for tax....

research here -

every free male...not the children or the elderly or the women or the poor!?

Well in theory, but in practice....

yeah that sounds like a real heavy tax from greedy people man!
they sound quite intent on stealing innocents money dont they!!!

You can make sarcastic comments all you like. But the fact is that the Ummayyads forced converts to Islam back on to the land to farm, and pay taxes as if they were Muslims, because they could not afford the loss of revenue.

you say the muslims paid less????

what with there lives!??? in the armies that protected that state and via the zakat that was to be paid per head of the family members !????

We have established they did not do a good job of defending the Dhimmi populations so that "blood tax" wasn't very high was it? Indeed the Abbasids soon replaced the Arabs with Turkish slaves. Yet the free Arabs did not pay more taxes because they were excluded from the Army. Zakat is paid on wealth isn't it? Not per head.

what you on about get your facts straight!

you want links!? i i give you a muslim site you will start your drabble so heres wikipedia instead that is basic but preety much accurate..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

I sometimes think some posters are secret Christians out to make the Muslims look bad. I would not have quoted Wikipedia myself, but as you have done so,

Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of "constitutional inferiority and humiliation"[19] and criticized for the alleged "consistent, intentionally humiliating character of its application".[20] According to orientalist S.D. Goitein in Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources:

It was of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer. This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the 'season of the tax' into one of horror, dread, and misery.

As noted above (in Islamic Legal commentary and History), payment of the jizya was often accompanied by blows administered to the neck and head. Both the payment and the hitting have been performed in public. [21].

shall i just do research for you all the time hei gou ??

Please, if you do not mind.

format_quote Originally Posted by Umm_Shaheed

Why are we living in the west anywayz? We should all try to leave. We have no business here except Da'wah. And even then it's not perminant. Myself included.

Why are we living in the west anyways?
The Whole World is made for the believers.

We should all try to leave.
Why?

We have no business here except Da'wah
Not true,we have just as much right here as the non-muslims.

Some of you need to pay a visit to THIS thread.

Wa'salam.

Jazakallah for the link. I've moved all posts discussing the 'problems of the ummah' to, well, the 'problems of the ummah' thread.

This thread's title is very clear - 'Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?' It is not about the disadvantages of living in a Muslim country. Please stay on-topic.