Israel = Hitler and even worse

format_quote Originally Posted by imran_c

as-salam alaykum

well theres a massive consciparcy did hitler even commit all them mascres or was it just an illusion so the jews can get there own state?

wa-salam alaykum

You deny the holocaust?

Are the lebonese really being killed or is it an illusion...

format_quote Originally Posted by mlsh27

Huge difference between Hitler and Isreal..come on, lamaggad, are you serious?

Yeah you are right, they aren't the same, actually Hitler is an angel compared to those cowards.

They are much worse than Hitler.

Once Israel starts seeking out and killing every single Arab civilian, without remorse or even any excuse to the international community, then I'll compare Israel to Hitler.

As it is, yes, I do believe that what Israel has been doing recently is very wrong, and our duas should go to the Lebanese people and for peace. To equate Israel with a genocidal maniac is a bit much though.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin

Once Israel starts seeking out and killing every single Arab civilian, without remorse or even any excuse to the international community, then I'll compare Israel to Hitler.

As it is, yes, I do believe that what Israel has been doing recently is very wrong, and our duas should go to the Lebanese people and for peace. To equate Israel with a genocidal maniac is a bit much though.

Nice to see a mod not jumping on the bandwagon

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano

Completely disagree ! Israel has also a right to exist ! ... and has noting to do with Hitler !

We all have a right to exist! - They say the pulling out of Gaza by isreal was not a consession but a right issued by the intertnational community as they were illegally ocuppying arab land! So in reality they are only after what belongs to them to begin with, no?

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano

Completely disagree ! Israel has also a right to exist ! ... and has noting to do with Hitler !

yup so does afghanistan under taliban

format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

Well no, it's not like they've set up concentration camps (not to my knowledge) and they aren't trying to eradicate the lebonese people just Hizbullah! (not that they can eradicate them)

Don't forget what some may perceive to be terrorists, others percieve them to be freedom fighters!

atlast, i've heard something impartial from u! fair observation dude! way 2 go!

I find this laughable.

format_quote Originally Posted by Geronimo

I also invoke Godwin's Law:

Godwin's Law
/prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups

Israel is guilty of ethnic cleansing but not of genocide yet..i totally agree with Ran HaCohen when he says in his article linked below
'the way from mass-deportation to mass-murder is a dangerously short one, and that every Jew, including those calling for "transfer", should be aware of that.'

Ethnic Cleansing: Past, Present and Future
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h123002.html

Ethnic Cleansing: Some Common Reactions http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h011303.html

I also think this is worth a read considering the topic of this thread.

Tommy’s Granny

By: Uri Avnery*

Sometimes a person “buys his world in one moment,” as the ancient Hebrew saying goes. This was done by the Minister of Justice, Yosef (“Tommy”) Lapid, when he uttered the words: “This old woman reminds me of my grandmother!”

This old woman, an inhabitant of the Rafah refugee camp whose house was demolished by the Israeli army, was immortalized by the camera while rummaging through the ruins of her home in a desperate search for her medicines. Two days later, journalists found her at the same place, still looking for her medicines under the debris.

Tommy’s grandmother perished in the Holocaust. He himself was born in a Hungarian region in the north of Yugoslavia and survived the Holocaust in the Budapest ghetto. When he mentioned “my grandmother”, it was quite clear that he meant a victim of the Holocaust.

The phrase kicked up a storm. It may well have been the straw that broke the camel’s back and induced the government to call a halt to the ongoing atrocity in Rafah.

Of course, the situation was ripe for that. The pictures of the killing and destruction in the poor town filled the TV news bulletins and newspaper pages throughout the world. The Al Jazeera TV station showed them several times every hour to tens of millions in the Arab world. In the Western world, too, the screens were full of them. The accumulated impact was terrible – the Israeli army was shown as an inhuman machine that destroyed the lives of hundreds of families without even noticing. The picture of a small boy struggling with a huge suitcase in an attempt to save some of his family’s belongings says more than a thousands words of the official army liar.

The tank that was filmed shooting at unarmed protesters, who marched and clapped their hands in unison, brought the glass to overflowing. The pretexts and explanations by the official propaganda mercenaries only made things worse. One could sense the world shuddering.

But the military and political leadership was action-drunk. They announced that the operation would continue on an even larger scale. Forces amounting to a reinforced army division were concentrated to deliver the coup de grace to Rafah. The intention – as testified by Lapid himself – was to demolish 3000 homes.

It seems that the Americans were active behind the scenes. George Bush is having enough trouble with Iraq. His policy is collapsing. The pictures from Rafah blackened still further the image of the Americans, Sharon’s friends and partners, in the eyes of the Iraqis, whose heart goes out to the Palestinians. For the first time, the US representative abstained from vetoing a Security Council resolution criticizing Israel (even if in ridiculously moderate language). Undoubtedly, telephone conversations were held in basic American, rebuking Sharon much more harshly.

Inside Israel, too, the opposition gathered momentum. Day after day the radical peace organizations (almost alone, unfortunately) confronted the police in the cities and even broke through a roadblock on the border to the Gaza Strip. The Israeli media could not ignore these demonstrations anymore and grudgingly devoted some seconds to them. (Al Jazeera showed them for ten minutes, repeated again and again).

In the country’s leadership the conviction gained ground that the military operation was a dismal failure. Apart from satisfying the thirst for revenge, no actual objective was achieved. Some tunnels were indeed discovered (two according to one version, four according to another) – but, for that, a few companies would have been enough. The “wanted” men got out of the area when they saw the preparations for the gigantic operation. The division sowed death and destruction without achieving anything.

In this situation, Lapid’s utterance broke the dam. The action was stopped in the middle.

As could be expected, rightists attacked Lapid violently. How dare he offend the memory of the Holocaust victims? How can one make such a comparison? This is a vile manipulation by Lapid of his being a Holocaust survivor! (In Israel, it is customary that only rightists have the right to warn of a Second Holocaust, so they can compare Arafat to Hitler and the Palestinians to the Nazis.)

Lapid tried desperately to defend himself. He had no intention of making a comparison, God forbid. He had not mentioned the Holocaust at all. Besides, his second grandmother did survive the Holocaust.

So why did he utter the words in the first place? Cynics found many explanations: Lapid is a masterful demagogue. For years he has appeared in a TV talk-show and become famous for his abusive attacks on leftists, Arabs, orthodox Jews, oriental Jews and poor people. One remembers, for example, an unemployed blond woman who appeared on his talk-show and complained about her miserable circumstances. Lapid interrupted her rudely: “So where did you get the money to dye your hair?”

According to the cynics, Lapid feels that the wind is changing and so he is adapting himself. He wants to prove that he is not Sharon’s poodle, as many believe. He wants to shake off his responsibility for the atrocities committed by the Sharon government.

All this may well be true, but I feel that the phrase about the grandmother escaped him in a moment of real agitation, without calculation. Underneath all the diverse strata of Lapid’s personality, the woman in Rafah touched the deepest of all. Buried beneath the politician and the TV entertainer there is the child from the Holocaust, and it is he that broke through at that moment.

There are moments in the life of a human being, when his most hidden quality is exposed, free from interests and calculations. I believe this is what happened at that moment.

The influence of the Holocaust on the character of the survivors, their children and children’s children, is a complex phenomenon. Once, a high-school principal gave me the compositions written by his pupils, boys and girls, after a visit to Auschwitz. The reactions divided into two groups.

Most of the pupils wrote something like: “After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the defense of Israel and the Jewish people is the highest commandment, and for this end, everything is permitted.” ( im sure Geronimo, guyabano, Joe, Keltoi, Heigou , searchingsoul, etc agree with this bunch of kids)

A minority of the pupils wrote something like: “After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the Jewish State must be more humane than any other and set an example of how to behave towards minorities, so that this can never happen again.” (I'm sure the rest of us sane, humane people with a conscience agree with these kids, May God guide them, protect them, and make people like them to be the mainstream of Israeli society) ameen

It seems that in the heart of Tommy Lapid both these reactions exist side by side. In ordinary times, the first reaction manifests itself in his behavior. But it must be said in his favor that, in a moment of truth, a moment of profound agitation, the second reaction got the upper hand.

“Tommy’s grandmother” became a symbol this week. Let’s hope that it becomes a signpost.

* An Israeli author and activist. He is the head of the Israeli peace movement, "Gush Shalom".

This thread is pathetic.

The fact that someone can compare Israel with Hitler points to how foolish and unknowledgable of history they are.

Hitler is the face of evil, and the fact that anyone is comparing him to Israel is atrocious. Hitler makes Israel look like the Peace Corps, and Hezbollah like the local candy man.

format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201

This thread is pathetic.

The fact that someone can compare Israel with Hitler points to how foolish and unknowledgable of history they are.

Thank you

A dose of History is needed for some members of this forum who even deny ethnic cleansing happened in the Holy Land

"The armies of the Arab states entered the war immediately after the State of Israel was founded in May. Fighting continued, almost all of it within the territory assigned to the Palestinian state …About 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled in the 1948 conflict."

Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."



Expulsion of the Arab population of Palestine

"Joseph Weitz was the director of the Jewish National Land Fund… On December 19, 1940, he wrote: ‘It must be clear that there is no room for both peoples in this country… The Zionist enterprise so far… has been fine and good in its own time, and could do with ‘land buying’ – but this will not bring about the state of Israel; that must come all at once, in the manner of a salvation (this is the secret of the Messianic idea); and there is no way besides transferring the Arabs from here to the neighbouring countries, to transfer them all; except maybe for Bethlehem, Nazareth and Old Jerusalem, we must not leave a single village, not as single tribe’…There were literally hundreds of such statements made by Zionists."

Palestinian Christian ,Edward Said , in "The Question of Palestine."
Expulsion – continued

"Ben- Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy…But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war."

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.


Didn’t the Palestinians leave their homes voluntarily during the 1948 war?

"Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was ‘self-inspired’. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action – whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refuses to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem it – or its predecessors – actively created."

Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming The Victims,"
ed. Said and Hitchens.

Arab orders to evacuate nonexistent

"The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948 was ‘self-inspired’. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British museum… There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put."

Erskine Childers, British researcher,
quoted in Sami Hadawi, Biter Harvest



Expulsion – continued

"That Ben Gurion`s ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve this purpose…most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants …even [if] they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence."

Israeli author, Sinha Flapan, "The Birth Of Israel"



The Deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians

"During May [1948], ideas about how to consolidate and give permeance to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim…[Even earlier’]

On 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha…The village was destroyed that night…Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on April 20…Abu Zureiq was completely demolished…By mid- 1949, the majority of the [350 depopulated Arab villages] were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable."

Benny Morris, "The Birth of the
Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949.



After the fighting was over, why didn’t the Palestinians return to their homes?

"The first UN General Assembly resolution – number 194- affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December, 19948. It had been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since the first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place on uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return…[and] systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli.

Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."



Is there any justification for this expropriation of land?

"The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israeli’s was an outrage."

Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."


How about the negotiations after the 1948-1949 wars?

"[At Lausanne,] Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the Palestinians were trying to save by negotiations what they had lost in the war- a Palestinian state alongside Israel. Israel however…[preferred] tenuous armistice agreements to a definite peace that would involve territorial concessions and the repatriation of even a token number of refugees. The refusal to recognize the Palestinians’ right to self-determination and statehood proved over the years to be the main source of the turbulence, violence, and bloodshed that came to pass."

Israeli author, Sinmah Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."


information courtesy of http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/jewsfjustice.cfm for more also click on this link

Interesting quotes about Ethnic Cleansing of the Arabs

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

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"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979

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David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

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"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

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"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

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"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

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"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves .. politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice."
(David Ben-Gurion, 1938)

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"Ours will be a brutal land of pens stretching between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean that will make South African apartheid pale."
(Yigal Bronner, 17 September 2003)


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Voices of reason and goodwill


"[T]here is no single fixed method for murder and not even for genocide. The author Y. L. Peretz wrote about "the righteous cat" who does not spill blood, but only suffocates. The government of Israel, using the military and its instruments of destruction, is not only spilling blood, but it is also suffocating. ... Of course with our self-righteousness, with our self-adoration in our "Jewish ethics" we make sure to advertise how beautifully the doctors take care of Palestinian victims in the hospitals. We do not advertise how many of those are executed in cold blood in their own homes. So it's not yet genocide of the terrible and unique style of which we were past victims. And as one of the smart Generals told me, we do not have crematoria and gas chambers. Is anything less than that consistent with Jewish ethics? Did he ever hear how an entire people said that it did not know what was done in its name?"(Shulamit Aloni, March 2003)

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"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."
(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002)

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" We live in a thunderously failed reality. ... A state lacking justice cannot survive. ... Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

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"We enthusiastically chose to become a colonial society, ignoring international treaties, expropriating lands, transferring settlers from Israel to the occupied territories, engaging in theft and finding justification for all these activities. Passionately desiring to keep the occupied territories, we developed two judicial systems: one - progressive, liberal - in Israel; and the other - cruel, injurious - in the occupied territories. In effect, we established an apartheid regime in the occupied territories immediately following their capture. That oppressive regime exists to this day."
(Michael Ben-Yair, 3 March 2002)

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"Do you want democracy? No problem. Either abandon the greater land of Israel, to the last settlement and outpost, or give full citizenship and voting rights to everyone, including Arabs. The result, of course, will be that those who did not want a Palestinian state alongside us will have one in our midst, via the ballot box. The prime minister should present the choices forthrightly: Jewish racism or democracy. Settlements, or hope for both peoples."
(Avraham Burg, 15 September 2003)

format_quote Originally Posted by amani

yup so does afghanistan under taliban

Question is, does afghanistan want to exist under taliban rule