to our Jewish brother from the port city of Ashdod that rose to international recognition after the awful suicide bombing that occured there.
if Israelis cared about Christianity why is there discrimination, harassment of messanic jews? ie Jews who believe in Jesus Christ peace be upon him as their Awaited Messiah?
Also why were so many christians expelled from Palestine? from their towns and villages? and even had their bibles burned?
Dr. Israel Shahak of Hebrew University reports that the Israelis burned hundreds of New Testament Bibles in occupied Palestine on March 23, 1980 (cf. Jewish History, Jewish Religion, p. 21).
All of them worship out of fear of fire
and consider deliverance abundant good fortune
or so they may dwell in the gardens , and reach to the meadows of paradise and there drink from its rivers
of gardens or fire i have no opinion
I seek no exchange for my Dearest Love
Verses of the Talmud that are offensive to Christ were written in a time where Jews were given the choice in Europe to be Christian or basically kicked out.... Can you imagine the hatred of Christians that Jews felt at this time?
Wow. So you have been reading the mistranslated, taken out of context hate sites of the talmud.
Act like somone who has a brain and actually read the talmud for yourself.
Completly untrue. You have no idea of what your talking about. I urge you to read the talmud instead of visiting hate sites.
It all makes sense now. Not only do you hate israel lammagad but you are a holocaust revisionist, and you side with neo-nazi's and very well known anti-semites.
__________
The anti-Semetic document "The Talmud Exposed", which has gained in popularity because of the Internet, claims to show the true nature and intentions of the Jewish people by quoting damning statements from the Talmud. The problem is not only are these alleged examples of nefarious Jewish tactics and bigotry taken wildly out of context but in many cases simply misquoted. But of course accuracy and good research are not the hallmarks of the bigot. As we at HateWatch say, don't just believe what you read either from the bigot or from HateWatch, do the research yourself. We suggest that you the reader take a look at the citations of both the "Talmud Exposed" and this response and compare for yourself. In doing so, we are confident that you will come to the same conclusion that we have, that the disseminators of this anti-Semtic tract are trying to forment hatred against the Jewish people by lies and half-truths.
Dr Israel Shahak was a jew and was once a zionist..he writes about how he witnessed something he couldnt believe..a jewish man refused his phone to be used to call an ambulance for a nonjew lying in the middle of his street during Sabbath.
He then went to the chief Rabbis to ask them if this violated Jewish laws..they told him 'yes' after this he decided to study Jewish reliigous scriptures including the Talmud and he made the statements above based on whats written in the Talmud. He isnt the first person to say this..many Rabbis have spoken about how Jews are superior to nonjews...btw its not a hate site..its from nonzionist jewish site.
but thanks for the link i will definitely have a look at it
All of them worship out of fear of fire
and consider deliverance abundant good fortune
or so they may dwell in the gardens , and reach to the meadows of paradise and there drink from its rivers
of gardens or fire i have no opinion
I seek no exchange for my Dearest Love
That is not sponsered by Israel's goverment. That is sponsered by some Israeli groups that do not have tolerance.
May I ask why a Muslim group in Saudi Arabia burned an actual scroll of the torah in a hate protest?
Does this represent all Muslims?
can you provide me with a link? i they did to this ..its extremely sad...but then again what can you say about people who follow an extreme interpretation of Islam.
All of them worship out of fear of fire
and consider deliverance abundant good fortune
or so they may dwell in the gardens , and reach to the meadows of paradise and there drink from its rivers
of gardens or fire i have no opinion
I seek no exchange for my Dearest Love
It all makes sense now. Not only do you hate israel lammagad but you are a holocaust revisionist, and you side with neo-nazi's and very well known anti-semites.
Haha, Chill man.. it's a discussion ... stop acting like a freak and no need to offend me by the stupid anti-Semitic thing that Jews take advantage of every time some one disagree with them...
explain to me why would Jewish authors says that about the holocaust..?! are they anti-Semitic Jew too..?!?! I qouted what i've said from them? i didn't disagree from no were...
I have said why i disagree and posted my proofs.. if you disagree prove me wrong and tell me your opinion... no need to be a freak...
i did not offend you in person, i was discussing the number of the people who died...
I think you should read this book.. Holocaust Industry.. it explains what i have said very well...
Haha, Chill man.. it's a discussion ... stop acting like a freak and no need to offend me by the stupid anti-Semitic thing that Jews take advantage of every time some one disagree with them...
Its no longer a discussion when it is someone who denies the holocaust and the crimes the Nazi's commited.
You can't have a discussion with someone who hates Jews like yourself.
__________________________________________________ ____ Dr. Israel Shahak - Liar of our time
Israel Shahak is a retired Israeli teacher of chemistry who travels the world to lecture on the evils of Zionism and the Jewish religion. His claims and opinions are so bizarre that, by themselves, they could not justify paying any attention to this book. But the work comes to us with an urgent recommendation from Noam Chomsky on its cover and with an essay by Gore Vidal as a foreword. Bearing this double cachet, the book will undoubtedly find its way to the shelves of bookstores and, at least in some limited way, to the attention of people on the Left.
Dr. Shahak says that he wants Jews to change their ways and to stop the atrocities associated with Zionism and Orthodox Jewish religion. As a first step, he wants us to face the terrible crimes that were committed by of our ancestors. One way of doing this, he says (pp. 72-3), is to develop a positive attitude toward "popular [his emphasis] anti-Jewish manifestations of the past." His prime example are the Chmielnicki massacres of 17th century Ukraine, which he wants us to celebrate as a progressive uprising:
Do decent English historians, even when noting the massacres of Englishmen by rebellious Irish peasant rising against their enslavement, condemn the latter as 'anti-English racists' ? What is the attitude of progressive French historians towards the great slave revolution in Santo Domingo, where many French women and children were butchered ? To ask the question is to answer it.
It is indeed.
Dr. Shahak is full of startling revelations, if that is the word, about Jewish history and the Jewish religion. None of those I was able to check had any foundation.
Some are just funny. He says (pp. 23-4) that "Jewish children are actually taught" to utter a ritual curse when passing a non-Jewish cemetery. He also tells us (p. 34) that "both before and after a meal, a pious Jew ritually washes his hands....On one of these two occasions he is worshiping God... but on the other he is worshiping Satan..."
I did take the trouble to question my orthodox rabbi nephew to find what might be behind such tall tales. He had no clue. If orthodox Jews were actually taught such hateful things, surely someone would have heard. Whom is Dr. Shahak kidding ?
Orthodox Jews, according to Shahak, frequently kill those whose views they do not like. "For example, in the late 1830's a 'Holy Rabbi' (Tzadik) in a small Jewish town in the Ukraine ordered the murder of a heretic by throwing him into the boiling water of the town baths..." Shahak gives neither the name of the town nor the year of this alleged killing. We are asked to take this tale on his say-so alone (p. 17).
In another story he gives enough detail to find a reference to the incident in the Encyclopaedia Judaica. It seems that a liberal rabbi and his family were poisoned in Lemberg (now Lvov) in 1848. According to the EJ, some orthodox fanatics were suspected of the crime. Where the EJ reports an unsolved case, which may indeed have been due to food poisoning, Shahak knows precisely who the murderers were: "the leaders of the Jewish community." How does he know this ? He won't say. This is the very stuff of the paranoid approach to historiography. (P. 17)
One of Shahak's charges has been taken very seriously. Some thirty years ago Shahak reported to the press that he had personally witnessed the following incident: an orthodox Jew saw an injured non-Jew on the Sabbath. To save the man's life, it was necessary to call an ambulance. The Jew had the phone handy but would not allow a violation of the sabbath, i.e. use of the phone, because the injured was a non-Jew. In Shahak's version, with which he begins this book, the Jew here followed the ruling the of orthodox rabbinate. The story was taken up by Ha-Arets in Israel, then by the Jewish Chronicle in London and other publications, all joining in a clamor against the barbaric orthodox. (Dr. Shahak does not seem to notice that this clamor, which he duly notes, is in itself a refutation of his charge that current Jewish life is dominated by orthodox inhumanity).
Dr. Shahak, whose nose is longer than Pinocchio's in any case, does not tell us the whole story of the incident. In the Summer 1966 issue of Tradition, an orthodox Jewish journal, we have the much more credible account by Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits (later the Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth). First of all, according to Rabbi Jakobovits, and contrary to Shahak's allegation, the rabbinate had ruled clearly that not only can the Sabbath be violated under such circumstances, but such violation would be a religious duty, to save a non-Jewish life no less than a Jewish life. Moreover, we also learn that Dr. Shahak, when challenged to produce his "orthodox Jew," was forced to admit that this Jew did not exist.
####
Much of Shahak's book, and all of his Chapter 5, are given to the allegation that the Talmud requires or permits Jews to commit crimes, including murder, against non-Jews. Here Shahak follows an old anti-Semitic tradition that began with the 1700 work Entdecktes Judenthum (Judaism Revealed) by Johann Eisenmenger.
There are gravely offensive passages in the Talmud. (And there are, as we know from our most recent history, some Jewish fringe groups who interpret traditional Jewish writings in a hateful, xenophobic manner.) Eisenmenger did not distort the Talmud, but he interpreted it maliciously. There are many mutually contradictory passages in the Talmud, and a great deal depends on methods of interpretation. The rabbis have never allowed the immoral Talmudic interpretations which Eisenmenger and his followers attribute to Judaism. Moreover, the Talmud is not unique in containing offensive material. As many scholars have pointed out, a hostile commentator could easily produce a Christianity Revealed to provide a basis for a (similarly unjustified) anti-Christian campaign. The problem of hostile Talmud interpretation is very thoroughly discussed in the first chapter of the scholarly work by Jacob Katz, From Prejudice to Destruction. Anti-Semitism, 1700-1933. Those sufficiently interested in this area to read Shahak should also take a look at Katz.
I was recently curious to learn how Talmudic teachings concerning non-Jews are actually transmitted to our generation of Jews. The Encyclopedia Talmudica, founded by Rabbi Meyer Berlin (Bar-Ilan), has a full discussion (volume 1, pp. 274-5). This source teaches that non-Jews are to be loved in the same manner as Jews; in particular, robbing a non-Jew is the same as robbing a Jew; the non-Jewish sick are to be visited just as the Jewish sick; and so forth. All this is in very direct contradiction to the assertions by Dr. Shahak, who tells us, over and over, that all religious Jews teach hatred (and worse) of non-Jews.
With very little trouble, anyone can learn for himself that the wild accusations by Israel Shahak have no foundations whatever. And this brings us back to Noam Chomsky and Gore Vidal. Chomsky's contribution to this work is confined to two sentences, which are worth citing: "Shahak is an outstanding scholar, with remarkable insight and depth of knowledge. His work is informed and penetrating, a contribution of great value."
For his part, Gore Vidal tells us that an (unnamed) "American Zionist" brought Harry Truman two million dollars in cash in 1948 and that as a result US recognition of Israel went through very fast. Nevertheless, says Vidal, he himself is not an anti-Semite. Somewhat later, he finds that Shahak is particularly "...a joy to read on the great Gentile-hating Dr. Maimonides."
The association of these men with this little booklet was meant to lend credence to Dr. Shahak. I think that, on the contrary, it brings dishonor -- further dishonor -- to Chomsky and Vidal.
N.B. The French edition of Shahak's book is published by the neo-Nazi publishing house La Vieille Taupe of Paris. This edition, like the English, carries Gore Vidal's introduction. But while it lacks the endorsement of Noam Chomsky, it features a particularly egregious "avant propos" by Edward Said of Columbia University. For details, see my webpage "What Edward Said Knows."
PS (June 2001): It appears that there is an English edition of the Shahak book that also contains the Said introduction. The edition of Shahak's book advertised by amazon.com says, on its cover, that it has a foreword by Said. WC
Addendum (July 2005): For additional reading, please see "The Interpretational Errors of Israel Shahak" by Professor Andrew E. Mathis.
Last edited by מדינת ישׂראל; 08-07-2006 at 05:14 PM.
The well known civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr. said that in order for people to condemn injustice, they must go through four stages.
The first stage is that people must ascertain that indeed injustices are being perpetrated. In his case, it was the injustices against African Americans in the United States.
The second stage is to negotiate, that is, approach the oppressor and demand justice. If the ppressor refuses, King said that the third stage is Self-Purification, which starts with the question: "Are we ourselves wrongdoers?" Are we ourselves oppressors?"
The fourth stage, this, is to take action after true self-examination, after removing one's own wrongs before demanding justice from others.
We of the modern world are reluctant to ask ourselves -- when we look at the terrible things that are happening -- "why do they occur?" and if we ask that with all sincerity, the answer will come resondingly: "All of this from our own selves." In so many ways we have brought this upon ourselves. This is the only empowering postion we can take. The quran implies that if a people opress others, god will send another people to oppress then; We Put some oppressors over other oppressors because of what their own hands have earned (Quran 6:129)
According to Fakhruddin Al-Razi (a 12th century scholar of the Quran), the verse means that the existence of the oppression on earth may be caused by previous oppressions. By implication, often the victims of aggression were once aggressors themselves.
This, however is not the case with Tribulations, for there are times in which people are indeed tried, but if they respond with patience and persevance, God will always give them relief and victory. If we examine the life of the Prophet Muhammed S.A.W in Makkah, it's clear that he and the community of believers were being harmed and oppressed, but Prophet Muhammed S.A.W was not only free of oppression, but became the leader of the entire arabian peninsula. Those people who once opressed him now sought mercy from him; and he was most gracious and kind in his response. Despite their former brutality toward him, the Prophet (s.a.w) forgave them and admitted them into the brotherhood of faith ( And here you are,on forums, complaining every second of the day..)
THIS is the difference between someone whose heart is purified and sound, and one whose heart is impure and corrupt. Impure people oppress, and the pure hearted not only Forgive their oppressors but elevate them in status and character. In order to purify ourselves, we must begin to recognize this truth.
And if we turn around and do exactly what they do, we have no moral legs to stand on. If we do as they do, we can't say "look at what israel is doing...". IF you live in a glass house, don't throw any stones.
I believe this thread has finaly reached the end of it's usefullness. It is now essentialy merely an instruement to breed personal attacks.
If I let this thread persist for too long forgive me. I felt that opinions needed to be aired. Which was done. But, there is no place for personal attacks.
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... stop acting like a freak and no need to offend me by the stupid anti-Semitic thing that Jews take advantage of every time some one disagree with them...
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