Israeli human rights group, B'tselem -Israeli troops guilty of human sheild tactics

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

a few hours?????? thats TWELVE HOURS MATE and not just 1 civilian..yes civilian but his two brothers too..this just goes to show you dont know the facts..after posting the article's link once and posting the entire article for your benefit..but then again i didnt expect any better from you..since you have shown time and time again what an evilhearted man you are.

Quibbles. The fact remains there is not the slightest piece of evidence in this article to support the claim that the IDF is using civilians as shields.

look here since when is it 'moral' and 'justfied' to attack militants from another peoples houses???? and bulldoze their way through?

Since when was it not? If militants will not come out and fight and insist on hiding among civilians, where should the IDF fight them? Beirut?

they let the man free..they didnt take him to the israeli police station for interrogation..one sane individual would think thats the course they'd take if we're to believe your rubbish claim that the handcuffed men were terribly important.

They were kind of busy - what with all the people shooting at them. I admit it is harsh to leave the guys standing there for so long, but it was in the middle of a gun battle. What do you expect?

[quoyte] yet more justifications from Mr Heigou..who seems to think its totally moral ethical and Godly to attack militants from another innocent man's house..demolishing an entire walls in the process..and leaving people to continue to live in such hazardous conditions..ohhh also..unhandcuff the terribly important 'militants' **rolls eyes** [/quote]

It is not the IDF's fault if Palestinians choose to fight in built-up areas. I am sure the IDF would be only too please to point out a large stretch of desert where the Palestinians could go and they could fight there. Don't see it happening.

So let me get this right - you are NOW outraged because they fought in a built up area, not because allegedly they used a human shield?

In response to both your quotes above i ask..why fire at Palestinian militants from other peoples homes? demolish those homes ..handcuff all the males and then just go off as if nothing happened? banning the practise alone is not enough..and thats why they have seen it important to INVESTIGATE this..and put in TIME AND EFFORT in to this investigation..if it was totally normal procedure like you think they wouldnt waste their time.

Soldiers cannot choose the time or place they fight. The other side does that. If they choose to fight in towns, they have to be fought in towns. We all know why the Palestinians choose to fight where the Airforce can't hit them. Don't blame the Israelis for that.

Investigate? In the middle of a gun battle? How?

The Israeli human rights organisation had evidence they wouldnt make wild accusations like that.

Why not? Israelis don't throw them in jail and torture them for doing so.

..and only complaints backed up with some evidence is investigated by the Israeli state authrorities..if it was mere conjecture they wouldnt bother.

But you have no evidence that they have evidence do you?

what do you call positing someone in front of the flat next to the stairs??

Surely the stairs were internal so they were not in front of the flat, but inside the building.

Israel bulldozed their way into a Palestinian home, knocked down the walls to be in a good positions to fire at Palestinian militants.

And why does this bother you? Surely the answer is for the militant not to fight near people's homes.

they handcuff the men in the house put them front of the entrance and .

Where they could not see the fighting and so were not in any obvious danger unless the militants got into the building.

They then use force to keep the people in their homes.

Or more accurately three young men who might have been fighters.

they donot even take the men for interrogation..because they werent important..their hosues location was stragetically important

True. What is wrong with that?

We will wait for their investigation and you will look terribly foolish if at all they choose to prosecute those soldiers (after they proove those soldiers were guilty)

Indeed we will. I don't see any prosecution coming out of this.

Next time read the article well.and but id rather you didnt reply to any of my threads...we are not in need for an Israeli government spokesman on this forum.

Go up to User CP on the top left hand side. Click on it. Go down the left hand side until you find "Block Poster" button. Click it. Add "HeiGou" to the list. You'll never have to see a single post of mine again.

format_quote Originally Posted by nennar

there is no blockposter..........

Oops. My mistake. I tried doing it from memory. Go to User CP on the lower blue bar onthe left hand side of the header. Click on it. Go down the list on the left hand side to Miscellaneous where there is a Buddy/Ignore List. Click on that. There are two boxes - one for buddies, one for people to ignore. Add "HeiGou" to the Ignore box. Voila.

format_quote Originally Posted by nennar

Thankyou

A pleasure.

To say that Hezbollah and Hamas have not used human shields either is a joke.

http://www.mererhetoric.com/archives/11272413.html

____________________________-

(New York, August 5, 2006) – Hezbollah must immediately stop firing rockets into civilian areas in Israel, Human Rights Watch said today. Entering the fourth week of attacks, such rockets have claimed 30 civilian lives, including six children, and wounded hundreds more.

Lobbing rockets blindly into civilian areas is without doubt a war crime,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. ”Nothing can justify this assault on the most fundamental standards for sparing civilians the hazards of war.”

Hezbollah claims that some of its attacks are aimed at military bases inside Israel, which are legitimate targets. But most of the attacks appear to have been directed at civilian areas and have hit pedestrians, hospitals, schools, homes and businesses.

Since July 12, when Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers and killed eight, Human Rights Watch researchers have been documenting the war’s impact on civilians in Israel and Lebanon, interviewing the witnesses and survivors of attacks, as well as doctors, emergency workers, police, military and government officials.

As of August 4, Hezbollah had launched a reported 2,500 rockets into predominantly civilian areas in northern Israel. Some longer-range rockets landed as far south as the city of Hadera, some 85 km from the border. Hezbollah announced that it had attacked Hadera on August 4 in retaliation for an Israeli air raid in Lebanon earlier that day that reportedly killed more than 20 farm workers.

Yesterday, Hezbollah’s leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, offered to stop bombing Israel’s “northern settlements” if the Israeli military stopped bombing Lebanon’s “cities and civilians.” He also warned that an Israeli attack on Beirut would result in Hezbollah bombing Tel Aviv.

In a report issued on August 3, “Fatal Strikes: Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon,” Human Rights Watch documented a systematic failure by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to distinguish between combatants and civilians. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as subsequent strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians. Yesterday, Israeli bombing reportedly killed at least 40 civilians in Lebanon.

“Human Rights Watch has documented the Israeli military’s persistent use of indiscriminate force, which has killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians,” Roth said. “But war crimes by one side in a conflict never justify war crimes by another. Hezbollah must stop using the excuse of Israeli misconduct to justify its own.”

Northern Israel, an area populated by about one 1 million people, has come to a virtual standstill because of Hezbollah’s rockets, which are exacting an enormous human and economic toll. Authorities believe that up to half the population has left the area, while the rest are living in constant fear of the air raid sirens that warn of attacks.

Human Rights Watch said many of those who remain in northern Israel are unable to leave because they don’t have relatives elsewhere in the country or the resources to pay for alternative accommodation. Some stay behind to care for relatives who are disabled or infirm, or because they work as emergency and medical personnel.

“Who is left here in Kiryat Shmona; the weakest part of the population,” Shimon Kamari, the deputy mayor of Kiryat Shmona, only a few kilometers from the northern border, told Human Rights Watch. “The elderly and those who can’t afford hotels, because to stay for such a long time is very expensive.”

Hezbollah has fired three different types of weapons at Israel so far. The vast majority are 122mm Katyusha rockets, while 220mm Fajr rockets have landed in the cities of Haifa and Nazareth. Hezbollah has also fired several 302mm Khaiber-1 rockets; the first of these landed on July 28 in empty areas near Afula, 50 km south of the border, and another wave hit near Hadera on August 4. In addition, Hezbollah said it had fired Khaiber-1 rockets at Beit Shean on August 2.

Some of the rockets, such as those that killed eight rail workers in Haifa on July 16 and two young brothers in Nazareth on July 19, have warheads packed with thousands of metal ball bearings that spray out from the blast. Launched on civilian areas, the ball bearings are intended to inflict maximum harm.

Under international humanitarian law – also known as the laws of war – parties to an armed conflict must not make the civilian population the object of attack, or fire indiscriminately into civilian areas. Nor can they launch attacks that they know will cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects that exceeds the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated. Such attacks constitute war crimes.

Latest Victims

In attacks on August 4, Hezbollah reportedly fired more than 200 rockets, killing three people. According to media reports, two men, aged 24 and 32, died and several were wounded when a rocket hit a restaurant in the Druze village of Majdal Krum. In another strike, a 27-year-old mother of two, Manal Azem, died around 2:15 p.m. when a rocket struck in the Druze village of Mrar. One and a half weeks ago, a 15-year-old girl, Daa Abbas, also died in Mrar when a rocket hit her home.

On August 3, eight people died in two rocket attacks. In one attack in Acre, five people died: Shimon Zaribi, 44; his 15-year-old daughter Mazal; Albert Ben-Abu, 41; Ariyeh Tamam, 50; and Ariyeh’s brother Tiran, 39.

Human Rights Watch interviewed Ariyeh Tamam’s wife, Tzvia, who was wounded in the attack. She told Human Rights Watch how the rocket killed her husband and brother-in-law, and wounded her sister-in-law, Simcha, and her eight-year-old daughter, Noa:

It destroyed our entire family. My husband is dead; his brother is dead; their sister is in a lot of pain. My disabled mother-in-law is devastated – Simcha also used to be her main caregiver. The kids are traumatized forever.

We don’t have a bomb shelter in our building, so when the sirens started, we went to the shelter in my aunt’s building on Ben Shushan Street. After the first rocket fell, and the siren stopped, we went out of the shelter to have a look. My daughter was standing near me, at the entrance, but Ariyeh went closer to the street. Suddenly, there was another loud boom and pieces of metal flew everywhere. I didn’t realize what had happened to me, but I rushed to the place where my husband was standing – all five people who were standing near the fence there were killed. There was blood everywhere; I tried to drag him away, and was screaming, ‘Don’t die; please don’t die!’ My son threw himself over his body, and was also screaming, ‘Daddy, daddy, don’t die!’ Then the police and the ambulances came, and took us all to the hospital.


In another attack that day, three Palestinian-Arab Israeli youths from the village of Tarshiha lost their lives: Shnati Shnati, 21; Amir Naeem, 18; and Muhammad Faour, 17. During the attack, another rocket hit a house in the nearby village of Meila. A woman, Maha Morani, whose 2-year-old daughter Nura was wounded in the attack, told Human Rights Watch:


It was around 3.30 pm yesterday. It was the first time the rocket fell on our village. We live on the third floor in a three-floor apartment building. We left kids at home and went out just for a few minutes to buy some food. My daughter was sleeping in her room in a cradle, and our son was in the living room. Suddenly, the siren went off, and my husband – I don’t know how he felt it – tore at full speed to the house, and just flew up the stairs to the room where Nura was sleeping. He grabbed her and rushed down, and just a minute after they left the house, the rocket hit straight into the room where Nura had been sleeping. She was injured in the eye by pieces of concrete that flew all around. Thank God, our son was in another room, so he was not injured physically, but he was in shock. Since the attack he has not talked at all, not a single word.


Hits on Hospitals

Several medical and educational institutes have sustained damage from Katyusha attacks. Human Rights Watch researchers visited hospitals in Nahariya and Safed after they were hit.

At Nahariya Hospital, rockets had been landing near the hospital since July 12, the hospital spokesperson said. On July 28, a rocket landed directly on the fourth floor, where the ophthalmology department is located, leaving a gaping hole in the wall and destroying eight rooms with beds and medical equipment. According to the spokesperson, the department usually held 20 to 30 patients, but officials had moved patients from the top floors to basement rooms since the start of the conflict. “Otherwise it’s hard to believe anyone would have survived the attack,” the spokesperson said. He estimated the damage to the hospital at about $200,000.

“There are no military bases around here; nothing military at all,” he said. “I believe they know perfectly well they are firing at a hospital.”

On July 17, around 11 p.m., a rocket landed just outside the Safed Hospital. According to the hospital’s head of security, the impact of the blast shattered windows in more than 50 rooms on the hospital’s north side and destroyed the external water and gas pipes.

A patient in the hospital at the time, Roni Peri, 37, told Human Rights Watch what happened when the rocket hit:


Several of us had just gone out to the balcony on our floor. We heard a siren and tried to get back in, but it came too fast. The rocket hit the wall below, and I saw a huge yellow flash and glass flying. I could see, hear and feel the explosion. I was thrown by the explosion to the other side of the balcony and both my legs and arms were cut from the glass. There was a boy in a wheelchair who was in the hospital because he was injured in a previous rocket strike. We had taken him outside with us to try and cheer him up, and he was badly hurt in the head by glass. He hasn’t spoken since it happened.


In the absence of troops or military assets inside, hospitals must never be attacked, Human Rights Watch said. Deliberately attacking them is a war crime.

Hits on Homes

Rockets have hit homes in many northern towns, although in most cases witnesses or security officials told Human Rights Watch that the inhabitants were not home at the time.

In Nahariya, Moshe Zamir, 56, witnessed a rocket strike on his neighbor’s house on July 18. “Around 6 p.m., I went outside to sit on my front porch,” he said. “All of a sudden, I heard a huge boom, and I quickly crouched down on the ground. I saw debris flying all over the place and I ran back inside my house.” The missile hit the house of the Akuka family, Zamir’s neighbors, who had already left town, he said.

Malka Karasanti, 70, was injured when a rocket destroyed the top two floors of her three-story apartment building in Haifa on July 17. She told Human Rights Watch:


I was taking a nap in my apartment on the second floor when, around 2:30 p.m., I heard a siren go off. I went to the bathroom, which I use as my safe room since there is no shelter in the building. There was a loud boom, and then everything began to collapse around me. … I was injured in my right shoulder bone, I broke a left rib, and I have a tear in my eardrum so I don’t hear well now.


Hits on Businesses

Hezbollah rockets have hit a number of workplaces directly and have taken a heavy economic toll on agriculture, tourism, industry and small businesses in northern Israel. Many businesses in the north have either dramatically scaled back their work or have closed entirely due to ongoing attacks.

The most serious attack took place on July 16, when a rocket slammed into a train depot in Haifa, killing eight workers and wounding 12. Human Rights Watch interviewed four railway workers at Haifa’s Rambam Hospital who were wounded by ball bearings from the lethal blast.

“There were three loud booms, and I started running out of the depot,” said Alek Vensbaum, 61, a worker at the Israel Train Authority. “One of the guys, Nissim, who was later killed, yelled at everyone to run to the shelter. The fourth boom got me when I was nearly at the door, and I was hit by shrapnel. ... I was hit by ball bearing-like pieces of metal in my neck, hand, stomach and foot.”

Sami Raz, 39, a railway electrician, said a ball bearing pierced his lung and lodged near his heart. “I had terrible difficulty breathing after I was hit,” he said.

On July 23, a Hezbollah rocket hit a carpentry shop in Kiryat Ata owned by David Siboni, killing one worker named Habib Awad. Siboni, 60, told Human Rights Watch:


I've had this business for 30 years. Despite the situation, I decided to keep my shop open, just for fewer hours and with fewer workers. This morning I was in my office upstairs when I heard the siren go off. There were eight other workers in the shop and I yelled at them to run to the safe room. I didn't think I had time to get downstairs, so I stayed up in my office and suddenly the rocket hit us directly. Habib had apparently just peeked out the door of the safe room to make sure everyone was in, and the blast got him. I think all the injuries were internal, you couldn't see any damage from the outside.


On July 19, a rocket hit a car garage in Nazareth owned for the past 35 years by Ased Abu Naja Ased. The direct hit destroyed the garage, the office with computers, diagnostic machines, several cars being serviced in the shop and three new cars for sale that had arrived that day. Abu Naja said that the attack thankfully took place on Wednesday, the one day of the week when the garage closed early. Otherwise, at least 20 workers would have been in the garage.

Shelters

Human Rights Watch researchers visited six bomb shelters in Haifa and Nahariya where many local residents have spent days and nights since the conflict began. Most of the shelters were stifling hot and overcrowded with insufficient facilities for the number of people they are meant to serve.

Sitting in a shelter in Nahariya, Rosa Guttmann, 52, told Human Rights Watch how difficult it was for older residents. “The access for the elderly is hard with all the stairs,” she said. “It is very difficult for them to quickly climb down into the shelter and later to get back out. The shelters are cramped and there isn’t enough room for everyone.”

Anther woman in the same shelter told Human Rights Watch:


We are in the shelter all the time, since the day things started. We only leave when the emergency services announce on the loudspeaker that we can go out. Sometimes we stay at the shelter during the day and go home to sleep at night. Yesterday we went home at around midnight to sleep but around 2 a.m. rockets started falling and at 5 a.m. we’d had enough, and returned to the shelter. We need more mattresses for everyone to sleep here. It is especially hard for the children. They are bored and they are scared.


On July 18, a Hezbollah rocket killed Andrei Zlanski, 37, just outside a bomb shelter in Nahariya. Human Rights Watch researchers arrived on the scene just after the attack and spoke with Eliav Sian, 34, a witness to the attack:


The guy put his wife and child into the bomb shelter and then went out, I’m not sure why. There was no siren at the time, just a general warning to enter and stay in the shelters. I was standing near the entrance of the shelter and the guy was just a few meters away. All of a sudden I heard a whistling sound, and quickly ran back inside. The guy didn’t make it and was killed instantly by the missile.


Zlanski, Human Rights Watch later learned, had stepped out of the shelter to get a blanket for his daughter. “There used to be about 70 people in the shelter but after he was killed many people left town, especially those with kids,” said Yoav Zalgan, 35, a single man who remained in the shelter. “And now 30 people are usually here.”

Human Rights Watch

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano

You saw the date of this news ? Tuesday, 25 July 2006

A little bit old and out of date. THings have changed already since that date

Nice try, but as all of your posts... thin air pppfffffffff




and....oh, before I forget: Watch this and accept finally the facts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8fSkSMhjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM35dzT9dUI

and the best is, in the second video, you can EVEN see, how these terrorists/cowards hide in the civilan mass after an air attack of Israelis.

Yes I know, you will say again it's a fake, and ............. ................ (fill the blanks) and you will provide me again absolutely ridiculous links. YAWN !

do you have trouble keeping track of time? the article was last updated on that day which is what? 13 days ago..its very recent..since you came to this forum you havent critisied any Israeli action, you agree with them 99% you did say they have to get rid of the illegal settlements which is a very commendable action..if you claim to be a follower of christ, you dont brush stuff like that under the carpet..its important you speak out for justice everywhere...as the saying goes 'silence makes you an accomplice'

if you're catholic ..you ought to be lending a ear to the more learned people of your Church and showing more empathy and concern for the oppressed people including many christians ( i did notice you havent replied to those articles from the World Council of Churches where they say many of the Christians who accompany palestinian children are abused and harassed)

Also nice to see you edited your post to include the same youtube links

Nelson Mandela was called a terrosit, Mahatma Gandhi too..by none other than the 'white 'westerners' let me inform you about Hezbollah..the Lebanese people dont see them as terrorist..its only the western nations who gave them that title and since they did that shouldnt they be bombing Lebanon for 'harbouring terrorists'? lol..the Lebanese (including many cabinet ministers, members of parliament) see them as ther heroes and liberators from 18 years of Israeli occupation..Israel still holds on to some parts of S.Lebanon ..so what you think about Hezbollah is of no value or significance to the Lebanese people zilch nada nada..they couldnt care less what you or your likes have to say about them.

Why do Israeli 'guided' missiles target Christian sections of Lebanon? and even Sunni neighbourhoods? are they Hezbollah strongholds too? lol Hezbollah is hiding inside them too? Also tell me why Israel targets bridges? roads with moving cars, Schools for the handicapped, orphanages? and fruit pickers? I want a response from you..an intelligent coherent one.

You have justified the Qana Massacre time and time again..and I posted this link from an Israeli daily that you call ‘ridiculous if you are wrong admit you're wrong..thats the way of the good christian.



It now appears that the military had no information on rockets launched from the site of the building, or the presence of Hezbollah men at the time.

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

The site was included in an IAF plan to strike at several buildings in proximity to a previous launching site. Similar strikes were carried out in the past. However, there were no rocket launches from Qana on the day of the strike.

its from HA RETZ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745185.html


HAA RETZ
HAA RETZ
HAA RETZ

I also asked you this question

so now that the IDF admitted there were no rockets launched from Qana on that fateful day..and this is what the Red cross workers and villagers said
(apparently all liars to you) can you tell us why they attacked that village again?? the place where Jesus did his miracles, the same village that was attacked in 1996?

i got only this pathetic response (repeated to highlightHis err sheer...ya know )

guyabano's response:I welcome you to guyabano's club of ninnies.You will be a worthy member !

guyabano's response:I welcome you to guyabano's club of ninnies.You will be a worthy member !

guyabano's response:I welcome you to guyabano's club of ninnies.You will be a worthy member !

guyabano's response:I welcome you to guyabano's club of ninnies.You will be a worthy member !

guyabano's response:I welcome you to guyabano's club of ninnies.You will be a worthy member !

what an offer guyabano!! i'm sooo chuffed ..i wouldnt want to join that..but how about you join sopcop= scents of paradise's caravan of peace?

i dont necessarily think you are bad..i believe deep down somewhere you are a nice person..but you are ignorant beyond belief and when presented with the facts (like the Haa RETZ article above) you do the unchristiantly thing and dont even admit th Israelis were wrong ..little wonder you did admit to being a nonpractising christian this means you donot implement any teachings of Jesus Christ those of compassion, justice, peace.

I hope you'll not be of those people who will be told by Jesus on the Last Day ' why do you call me Lord , Lord and donot do the things which i say!!

Lavikor ..and how many civilians died?

those dead are 50% -50% civilians and military.

in Lebanon, its overwhelmingly civilians, more than a 1000 dead , several more thousands injured or disabled for life.

and the Hezbollah dead are 30 only.

and oh yeah Lavikor lets not forget how this major escalation started.

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them. The forces were trying to keep the soldiers' captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity
http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...ap2873051.html


The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said. "The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. [Hindustan Times 7/12/06] http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/1...6,00050004.htm

The Lebanese Hezbollah movement announced Wednesday the arrest of two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were arrested as they entered the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border. Israeli aircraft were active in the air over southern Lebanon, police said, with jets bombing roads leading to the market town of Nabatiyeh, 60 kilometers south of Beirut Bahrain News Agency http://english.bna.bh/?ID=47348

TRANSLATION: According to the Lebanese police force, the two soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab close to the border, whereas Israeli television indicated that they had been captured in Israeli territory. [fr.news.yahoo 7/12/06] http://fr.news.yahoo.com/12072006/20...tres-tues.html

According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory, in the area of Aïta Al-Chaab, near to the border with Israel, where an Israeli unit had penetrated in middle of morning. [AFP 7/12/06]

The militant group Hezbollah said it captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes across the border in southern Lebanon on Wednesday. [chinabroadcast 7/12/06] http://en.chinabroadcast.cn/2947/[email protected]

In the afternoon, the scene changed in the streets of southern Lebanon, which was the target of 32 Israeli raids that mainly targeted areas near the area where the two soldiers were captured in Aita al Chaab, close to the border with Israel. [news.monstersandcritics.com 7/12/06] http://news.monstersandcritics.com/m...ing_so ldiers

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory. [Asia Times 7/15/06] http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HG15Ak02.html

TRANSLATION: Hezbollah has made it clear time and again that it would retaliate by capturing and detaining Israeli soldiers if they entered Lebanon and use them in an exchange of prisoners. Israel has in a deliberate manner sent a commando into Lebanon (Aïta Al Chaab) They came under attack from Hezbollah, who captured two of their soldiers. [voltairenet.org 7/18/06] http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

Only weeks ago, an entire reserve division was drafted in order to train for an operation such as the one the IDF is planning in response to Wednesday morning's Hizbullah attacks on IDF forces along the northern border. [JPost 7/12/06] http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ticle/ShowFull

Israel's military response by air, land and sea to what it considered a provocation last week by Hezbollah militants is unfolding according to a plan finalized more than a year ago.

In the years since Israel ended its military occupation of southern Lebanon, it watched warily as Hezbollah built up its military presence in the region. When Hezbollah militants kidnapped two Israeli soldiers last week, the Israeli military was ready to react almost instantly. [SFGate 7/21/06] http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...type=printable

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2006/07/169834.php

lavikor in the end you only have your military to blame...anyways i dont expect you to reply ive posted this information numerous times and i havent got any response whatsoever

format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah

and oh yeah Lavikor lets not forget how this major escalation started.

Umm do you have a single credible news report that explains why the BBC et al were so wrong in what they said? In fact do you have any evidence apart from what Hezbollah says that this attack took place inside Lebanon? Can you explain to me why Nasrallah in all his speeches has yet to allude to the fact that allegedly this took place inside Lebanon?

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano

@scentsofjannah:

Are you aware that I don't read so long posts, and specially not, when there is such bold text, repeated text or even written in CAPS ! It's considered YELLING !

So, can I repeat also ?

Guyabano is a man of a few words, but not few enough.

format_quote Originally Posted by HeiGou

Quibbles. The fact remains there is not the slightest piece of evidence in this article to support the claim that the IDF is using civilians as shields.



Since when was it not? If militants will not come out and fight and insist on hiding among civilians, where should the IDF fight them? Beirut?



They were kind of busy - what with all the people shooting at them. I admit it is harsh to leave the guys standing there for so long, but it was in the middle of a gun battle. What do you expect?

yet more justifications from Mr Heigou..who seems to think its totally moral ethical and Godly to attack militants from another innocent man's house..demolishing an entire walls in the process..and leaving people to continue to live in such hazardous conditions..ohhh also..unhandcuff the terribly important 'militants' **rolls eyes**

It is not the IDF's fault if Palestinians choose to fight in built-up areas. I am sure the IDF would be only too please to point out a large stretch of desert where the Palestinians could go and they could fight there. Don't see it happening.

So let me get this right - you are NOW outraged because they fought in a built up area, not because allegedly they used a human shield?



Soldiers cannot choose the time or place they fight. The other side does that. If they choose to fight in towns, they have to be fought in towns. We all know why the Palestinians choose to fight where the Airforce can't hit them. Don't blame the Israelis for that.

Investigate? In the middle of a gun battle? How?



Why not? Israelis don't throw them in jail and torture them for doing so.



But you have no evidence that they have evidence do you?



Surely the stairs were internal so they were not in front of the flat, but inside the building.



And why does this bother you? Surely the answer is for the militant not to fight near people's homes.



Where they could not see the fighting and so were not in any obvious danger unless the militants got into the building.



Or more accurately three young men who might have been fighters.



True. What is wrong with that?



Indeed we will. I don't see any prosecution coming out of this.



Go up to User CP on the top left hand side. Click on it. Go down the left hand side until you find "Block Poster" button. Click it. Add "HeiGou" to the list. You'll never have to see a single post of mine again.

Why do people with closed minds open their mouth?

Heigou you do know that you have the right to remain silent so please shut up and stop replying to my threads..im not your type ive got a pulse.

Scents of Jannah, I read the article, there were a few important pieces of information missing.

Why did the IDF enter the home?

Was it because they\IDF were coming under fire from snipers and the house offered the first or best source for cover from the fire?

Perhaps it offered the best location to return fire towards the snipers?

Was the hall-way as reasonably secure from any sniper fire as any other location in the house?

If it was a secure enough location, then I can see why the men might have been secured there, it would be, an unlikely place have weapons hidden that could be recovered and used against the IDF.

I was confused when the article starts off stating that 6 people were done this way and then later states that is was the 3 fighting aged men that were done that way.

It almost seems to indicate that the IDF saw the men as a possible threat and placed them in a position that would offer some degree of protection from anything these men might do, while leaving the men in a protected position from any sniper fire.

It maybe entirely possible that the assumptions about the men being placed there in the hopes that it might prevent “suiciders” (I am not exactly sure of the meaning of that word as it was used in the article).

If the assumptions of:

The IDF bulldozed their way into the home before any actions, that day, by Palestinian fighters engaging the IDF.
The IDF chose the house simply because it provided a good location to fight from because whatever the IDF was going to do was likely to draw sniper fire.
The IDF placed the men in harms way, and left them there for 12 hours.
The IDF placed the men there in the hopes that if anyone was going to die, due to “suiciders”, it would be these 3 men.
The posted article revealed all known and important facts.

If all those assumptions are correct, then what the IDF did is, imo, contemptible.

I saw nothing in that article that would allow an objective person to make all those assumptions.

I agree that the IDF will have to start doing some things differently. I am just not sure the subject of the article is an example of one of them. Perhaps I missed something in article?

There has to be found some different approach to the Palestine-Israel conflict, it is now setting the stage for WW111.

Thanks
Nimrod

format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod

Scents of Jannah, I read the article, there were a few important pieces of information missing.

Why did the IDF enter the home?

to fire at militants on the other side.

Was it because they\IDF were coming under fire from snipers and the house offered the first or best source for cover from the fire?

so if your house was strategically located..its okay for soldiers to bulldoze their way in , handcuff you and your brothers and leave you in the entrance for twelve long hours?

Perhaps it offered the best location to return fire towards the snipers?

Was the hall-way as reasonably secure from any sniper fire as any other location in the house?

they held the people of the household by force..would you hang around if such fighting occured from your home? or would you leave immediately?

If it was a secure enough location, then I can see why the men might have been secured there, it would be, an unlikely place have weapons hidden that could be recovered and used against the IDF.

the men secured?? they were held by force, and handcuffed for 12 hours..three unarmed civilians in a half demolished home who had nothing to do with the fighting..if they were important they would have been taken away for interrogation in the nearest Israeli police station..that was not the case..they didnt give them any choice whatsoever...how do you fail to see that?

I was confused when the article starts off stating that 6 people were done this way and then later states that is was the 3 fighting aged men that were done that way.

i think this is one of the cases...and the BBC journalist went to talk to the man.

It almost seems to indicate that the IDF saw the men as a possible threat and placed them in a position that would offer some degree of protection from anything these men might do, while leaving the men in a protected position from any sniper fire.

unarmed men as possible threat? okay if they were a threat then they were handcuffed and left to their own devices by the entrance for twelve long hours.

It maybe entirely possible that the assumptions about the men being placed there in the hopes that it might prevent “suiciders” (I am not exactly sure of the meaning of that word as it was used in the article).

If the assumptions of:

The IDF bulldozed their way into the home before any actions, that day, by Palestinian fighters engaging the IDF.
The IDF chose the house simply because it provided a good location to fight from because whatever the IDF was going to do was likely to draw sniper fire.
The IDF placed the men in harms way, and left them there for 12 hours.
The IDF placed the men there in the hopes that if anyone was going to die, due to “suiciders”, it would be these 3 men.
The posted article revealed all known and important facts.

If all those assumptions are correct, then what the IDF did is, imo, contemptible.

I saw nothing in that article that would allow an objective person to make all those assumptions.

I agree that the IDF will have to start doing some things differently. I am just not sure the subject of the article is an example of one of them. Perhaps I missed something in article?

Why werent the men taken in for questioning or imprisoned in jails if they were a threat?. from my understanding of the article they never did that also theres no referenece to this whatsoever in the article..so yes the IDF just bulldozed their way through someone elses house handcuffed them and then left them to pick up the pieces by themselves and rebuild their home...Israel has no regard whatsoever for palestinian peoples safety or for the safety of their proerty or infrastructure..when it destroyed Gaza's electricity supply and plunged half the city in darkness..who footed the bill? the US

when the Met police raided a suspects house..they arrested him and his brother ( they even nearly killed one of the men in the process) then they totally dismantled their house..they even removed all the tiles..floor boards etc to search for the alleged explosives..nothing was found..and it was a major scandal...but then they did house the family..father mother brothers and sisters in hotels till the repairs in their house was completed..as of yet its not but soon enough that home will be habitable again. This is how Israel should do..but it has a policy of building demolishings, making scores of Palestinians homeless..there can no justification whatsoever..this is nothing but collective punishment.

There has to be found some different approach to the Palestine-Israel conflict, it is now setting the stage for WW111.

Thanks
Nimrod

a different approach..thats not negotiations or suicidebombings.

i believe in peoples power, the Palestinians can for instance resist the bulldozing of their homes and buildings..stand in the way of those machines ..even if that means getting crushed to death...they can do that or choose the other option hopelessly sitting by the rubble of their former homes feeling sorry for themselves.