EGENSBURG, Germany — In what some immediately saw as a serious diversion from the rapprochement approach of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, September 12, said the Islamic concepts of "Jihad" was unreasonable and against God's nature.
Using the words, "Jihad" and "Holy War" in lecture at the University of Regensburg, the pontiff quoted criticism of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) by a 14th Century Byzantine Christian emperor, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," Benedict quoted Manuel II.
Quoting the Byzantine Christian emperor, Benedict said spreading the faith through violence is unreasonable and that acting without reason was against God's nature.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," added the pontiff in his own words.
British Karen Armstrong, a famed prolific writer on all three monotheistic religions, has criticized stereotyping the Arabic word "jihad" as merely meaning holy war.
She stressed that "jihad is a cherished spiritual value that, for most Muslims, has no connection with violence."
At a giant open-air mass earlier Tuesday, Pope Benedict urged more than 250,000 pilgrims to stand up for their beliefs in the face of the "hatred and fanaticism" tarnishing religion.
"Such an atmosphere made it important to state clearly the God in whom we believe," the pope said.
Strongest criticism
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," said Guolo.
Pope's criticism of Islam made his address the most political of his six-day visit to Germany, which had previously dealt exclusively with spiritual matters, commented AFP.
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," Renzo Guolo, a professor of the sociology of religion at the University of Padua, told The New York Times on Wednesday, September 13.
"Not all Islam, thank God, is fundamentalist."
Marco Politi, the Vatican expert for the Italian daily La Repubblica, said the pontiff's speech revealed "deep mistrust regarding the aggressive side of Islam."
"Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II — the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God," he asserted.
Daniel A. Madigan, rector of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, agreed.
"If we are really going into a serious dialogue with Muslims we need to take faith seriously."
But papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi sought to ease the severity of the Pope's rebukes of Islam.
He argued that the pontiff used Manuel's views of Islam only to help explain the issue and not to condemn all of the Muslim religion as violent.
"This is just an example. We know that inside Islam there are many different positions, violent and non-violent," he said.
"The Pope does not want to give an interpretation of Islam that is violent."
Unlike late pope John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger, who took the name of Benedict after his election, does not approve of joint prayers with Muslims.
He is also skeptical of the value of inter-religious dialogue.
In the summer of 2005, Pope Benedict devoted an annual weekend of study with former graduate students to Islam.
During the meeting, and since, he has reportedly expressed skepticism about Islam’s openness to change given the conviction that the Noble Quran is the unchangeable word of God.
In 2004, Pope Benedict also caused a stir by opposing Turkey's accession into the European Union.
He said Turkey should seek its future in an association of Islamic nations, not with the EU, which has Christian roots
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
"seems you have a problem with muslims getting angry with people who write or say things about there religon??"
Not at all. Getting angry is fine, protesting is fine, letters to the editor, economic boycotts, burning in effigy... all fine. Killing people is not fine, not simply because they said or wrote something offensive. Never ever ever is it ok to do that.
It's called free speech.
"we dont all live by your rules"
That's just my point.
Your missing out on the most important point. Those kinds of actions are completely wrong and have nuthing to do with Islam. If you still cannot comprehend it, I repeat! If you cannot comprehend it, stop going any further with ur posts. You'll jus be goin in circles. All ur gunna get is people hating u cuz u fail to listen.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
What did the Pope say that was ignorant? He is not an ignorant man, not being Muslim is not synonymous with being ignorant. He quoted a conversation from the 14th century to say something about religion without reason... his speech wasnt about Islam. The only reason he chose the quote is because of the present political climate of extremism... in fact in his speech he even goes out of his way to say that Mohammed said that Muslims cannot force people to convert, at a time that Mohammed was weakest and under attack... ultimately that was his point, violence does not please God so it should not be done in the name of God.
The media headlines all say "Pope calls Islam violent" and the Muslim world erupted into riots and vandalism but how many have actually read the speech? I posted it earlier and only Muezzin responded...
I agree with you... there is a hadith where a man came to the prophet for advise... and the prophet(PBUH) told him don't ever be angry... if you are angry and sitting lie down, if you are angry while standing then sit down....unfortunately people come with so many different mind sets ... we are hardly ever united on any front... Bush uses the word (Islam) in a psychological way ... if you ever listen to any of his half assed speeches... I am sure ... in fact I am certain someone else writes them for him ... so when he says it, a particular reaction is aroused en masse ... so long as he keeps a story coming everyday ... from such figures as the pope ... he can reach new audiences who naturally don't care much for him.... I can't believe this moron with a bird brain has this strong a grip on the world...... my only consolation is that at least I am hoping that ... people are waking up and seeing through the transparency of his charade.... thank you both for your participation
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
We do not hate Muslims, we are not trying to harm Muslims, the Holy Father was misquoted.
It was the style and tone, he didn't rebuff the claim after he made his statment of violence having no place in religion and this why people took offence, anyway it's done now he's apoligied.
It was the style and tone, he didn't rebuff the claim after he made his statment of violence having no place in religion and this why people took offence, anyway it's done now he's apoligied.
He made no statement of violence, he quoted a 14th century conversation to make a point about reason and religion. His style and tone was the same as it always was... a teachers. He wasnt talking about Islam at all. Ive watched all day while everybody said horrible things about Catholics and the Holy Father, but enough is enough the original post is just wrong.
I dont think this is funny... all day ive been terrified to say anything in this thread at all while people have posted a steady stream of insults and ignorance toward the Holy Father and toward Catholicism. In the other thread somebody is saying that Catholics are now part of some vast global conspiracy against Islam all orchestrated by President Bush. Nobody has even for a minute considered that the Pope was being honest when he said he was misunderstood and misquoted, meanwhile your fellow Muslims have firebombed two churches (not even Catholic), rioted all over the world and stabbed a German priest. Is there no such thing as self scrutiny for Muslims? Or does that come only second to correcting the percieved "ignorance" of other people? Where is the vast Muslim apology for the fire bombings riots and attacks on Catholics?
Wait that is not part of Islam right - I am just ignorant and "dont understand" I need some "perspective," and yet you take on face value that the Pope just randomly decided to deride Islam for the sake of it? Did anybody read the speech itself? I quoted it... it wasnt even about Islam AND the Holy Father went out of his way to note that Mohammed advocated peace at a time he was under the threat of destruction from all sides - no you dont quote that part in your self righteous diatribes about the ignorant Pope and his evil Catholics all controlled by Bush, you zero in on a quote between a 700 year dead emperor and a persian whos name we dont even know quoted to illustrate a point in a speech between the leader of a religion and his followers - not even directed or about you.
And you have the nerve to say you are insulted? The Pope is misquoted, Churches firebombed, effigies burned, priests assaulted, rioting and Im the one who is supposed to have some perspective.
And doodlebug your comments are just insulting. Castration has nothing to do with Catholicism, I respect you made your own decision - don't insult my religion just to prove your merits to your new sisters and brothers in faith.
Im livid, im done, ive got nothing more to say here, goodbye.
Jayda it is all over the news... why do you take offense when someone gets upset with the "pope" but no offense when he insults a messanger from God and religion... why is it OK? I don't think any group in the world would stand for as much abuse as Muslims are getting right now from all angels.... my sister's colleague went to get his 8 months pregnant wife from the Airport only to wait for her for 10 hours as they detained her for interrogation in her condition... I hope with your current situation you can understand what that must be like?... my dad's friend and his wife had to open a baby's diaper to officials in the airport to prove that they didn't strap a bomb to their child... these people treat Muslims like animals if not worst... is that justifiable in your eyes? be fair really? if people push and push and push the other side will push back at some point......... your "holy" father isn't holy to us anymore than Islam is sacred to him.... and by the way he as the news broke today "stopped short of an apology"
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The accusations made by the pope can be easily flipped up-side-down on Christianity, specifically Catholicism.
Jayda, how can you say he wasn't reffering to Islam? He even asked Turkey to leave the EU! here's the full quote:
In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion". According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur'an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...".
He's using the quote from the emporer as a guise to attack Islam IMO.
I hope nobody takes this the wrong way, but am I the only one who sees the irony in people being angered by the supposed quote of "Islam is violent" and resort to violence to make their point that Islam isn't violent? I know the response will be "Those people don't represent Islam", but the problem is that they are "respresenting" Islam. Just like some people will read the headline of some article that states "Pope calls Islam violent" and believe the Pope hates Islam, others will see Muslims being violent as a reaction to the Pope article and assume that Muslims are indeed violent. This is the problem with sensationalized media stories.
What did the Pope say that was ignorant? He is not an ignorant man, not being Muslim is not synonymous with being ignorant. He quoted a conversation from the 14th century to say something about religion without reason... his speech wasnt about Islam. The only reason he chose the quote is because of the present political climate of extremism... in fact in his speech he even goes out of his way to say that Mohammed said that Muslims cannot force people to convert, at a time that Mohammed was weakest and under attack... ultimately that was his point, violence does not please God so it should not be done in the name of God.
If I was to say what Jesus(AS) taught or bought to humanty is nothing but evil and Inhuman wouldn't you say I know nothing about your religion? Infact wouldn't I say such things out of ignorance/lack of knowledge regarding your religion? What good did this pope hope to achieve by slandering the prophet of another religion? Are you saying its OK to slander another religion "nonchalantly" in order to make a point in a broader perspective? Fact is he chose to an Anti-Islamic quote when addressing millions and knowing what he says will strongly influence those listening to him.
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
The media headlines all say "Pope calls Islam violent" and the Muslim world erupted into riots and vandalism but how many have actually read the speech? I posted it earlier and only Muezzin responded...
Lets not generalise the actions of a few as the actions of the "Muslim world". Riots are I understand but vandalism/violence = NO!
By the way although I didn'ts see your post I was looking at this:
Well there are strict regulations to what is permissable in jihad and when it is permisable. Even the destruction of proporty isn't alowed. Muslims have been instructed by the Prophet not to pillage or plunder or destroy residential areas, nor harm the property of anyone not fighting. It has been narrated in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, Abu Dawood) So much for teh riots.
there's a lot more rules where that one came from, here's the major lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam
I see where your coming from, but what Woodrow meant; or at least what I think he meant, I can't speak in his place obviously. Is that these guys don't act out of obediance to Allah since they violate his rules. No they act out of vanity and self love. They don't have the power to swallow their vanity when someone else says they are wrong, and feel teh need to act upon it. Retaliation is never a defensive action.
That is correct. That is what I was trying to say.
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
When you create an account, we remember exactly what you've read, so you always come right back where you left off. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and share your thoughts. Sign Up
Hide
Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.
Bookmarks