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Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

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    Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

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    Salaam,

    Check this out..

    [PIE]Muslim anger fear halts opera
    POSTED: 6:37 p.m. EDT, September 27, 2006
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    BERLIN, Germany (AP) -- A leading opera house called off a production of Mozart's "Idomeneo" that features the severed head of the Prophet Mohammed, setting off a furious debate Tuesday over Islam, freedom of speech and the role of art.

    The furor is the latest in Europe over religious sensitivities -- following cartoons of the prophet first published in a Danish newspaper and recent remarks by Pope Benedict XVI decrying holy war.

    Kirsten Harms, director of Berlin's Deutsche Oper, announced "with great regret" that she had decided to cancel the three year old production after state security officials warned it could provoke dangerous reactions in the current politically charged climate.

    After its premiere in 2003, the production by Hans Neuenfels drew widespread criticism over a scene in which King Idomeneo presents the severed heads not only of the Greek god of the sea, Poseidon, but also of Mohammed, Jesus and Buddha.

    The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004.

    Harms defended her decision, which she described as "weighing artistic freedom and freedom of a theater ... against the question of security for people's lives."

    But the move immediately provoked strong reactions across Germany.

    Outraged politicians called the decision to pull the production "crazy" and "a fatal signal" of caving into extremism. Response from Germany's Islamic community was mixed, with some praising the decision and others calling on Muslims to accept the role of provocation in art.

    The leader of Germany's Islamic Council welcomed the move, saying a depiction of Mohammed with a severed head "could certainly offend Muslims."

    But in an interview with German radio, Ali Kizilkaya added: "I think it is horrible that one has to be afraid ... That is not the right way to open dialogue."

    The leader of Germany's Turkish community said it was time Muslims accepted freedom of expression in art.

    "This is about art, not about politics," Kenan Kolat told Bavarian Radio. "We should not make art dependent on religion -- then we are back in the Middle Ages."

    Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."

    "I stand behind my production and will not change it," Neuenfels told the Berliner Morgenpost in its Tuesday edition.

    The opera house's decision comes after the German-born pope infuriated Muslims by quoting the words of a 14th-century Byzantine emperor who characterized some of the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed as "evil and inhuman," particularly "his command to spread by the sword the faith."

    Earlier this year, violent protests erupted across the Muslim world after a Danish newspaper published 12 cartoons depicting Muhammad. The caricatures were reprinted by dozens of newspapers and Web sites in Europe and elsewhere, often in the name of freedom of expression.

    Islamic law is interpreted to forbid any depiction of Mohammed for fear it could lead to idolatry.

    "We know the consequences of the conflict over the (Mohammed) caricatures," Deutsche Oper said in a statement. "We believe that needs to be taken very seriously and hope for your support."

    Berlin security officials had warned Harms that staging the opera could "in its originally produced form .... pose an incalculable security risk to the public and employees."

    But Germany's interior minister condemned the cancellation.

    "That is crazy," said Wolfgang Schaeuble, the country's top security official, speaking to reporters in Washington, D.C. "This is unacceptable."

    It is not only Muslims who have been offended by depictions of religion in art.

    Last month Madonna sparked criticism from some Roman Catholics in Germany for a show that staged a mock crucifixion. Mel Gibson's 2004 movie, "The Passion of Christ" met with disapproval from some Catholics and some Jews. In 2004, a Birmingham, England, theater canceled its run of "Behzti" after a violent protest by members of the Sikh community.

    Still, many in normally open and tolerant Berlin, which has become a home for cutting edge and often contentious artistic productions, cautioned against compromising on issues of freedom of speech and art.

    "Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived on the offensive. Voluntary self-limitation gives those who fight against our values a confirmation in advance that we will not stand behind them," said Mayor Klaus Wowereit.

    Bernd Neumann, the federal government's top cultural official, said that "problems cannot be solved by keeping silent."

    "When the concern over possible protests leads to self-censorship, then the democratic culture of free speech becomes endangered."[/PIE]


    Now from teh article it is clear that some muslim upholds the ban but as always some moderate muslim in germany as well as some here in this forum,will say allow this play to go on.

    I guess many muslim are forgetting to hopnour Prophet Muhammad saw.
    Is art an excuse?


    The western argument
    [PIE]"Our ideas about openness, tolerance and freedom must be lived on the offensive. Voluntary self-limitation gives those who fight against our values a confirmation in advance that we will not stand behind them," said Mayor Klaus Wowereit.[/PIE]

    So they are fighitng for their values,i wonder does it include respect?
    This is line with Iran challenge,post the pictures of the Holocaust caricatures,but they wont,are they then open,tolerant and free?

    No they too limit themselves,but when it comes to mocking,they say it is ART.

    [PIE]"When the concern over possible protests leads to self-censorship, then the democratic culture of free speech becomes endangered.[/PIE]

    Would it be self censorship if you respect your neighbour?

    [PIE]Turkish community said it was time Muslims accepted freedom of expression in art.[/PIE]


    Do you need to be offensive to be enlightening?
    I guess in western context yes..

    Maybe that why they do the things they do,they talk and talk and want to be enlightened.
    Do they need to be mocking and disruptive to LEARN.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    In this case, the play was banned, so why the fuss?
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin View Post
    In this case, the play was banned, so why the fuss?
    The play was not banned. It was cancelled. If it would have been banned it would be an outrage.

    It's still somewhat disgusting though. The idea that the threat of violence leads to an opera being cancelled. I think it was a bad decision by the managers, we are giving in to the threats like this.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by KAding View Post
    The play was not banned. It was cancelled. If it would have been banned it would be an outrage.
    My mistake. Though, really, same result, eh?
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    The only difference between art that Christians find offensive and art Muslims find offensive is the threat of violence. If Christian groups are offended by something, that something will happen anyway, because Christians normally do not resort to violence in those situations. Respect for religions are important, but in a secular society if you don't like the opera, then don't buy a ticket. It is ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on egg shells for fear of violence.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi View Post
    The only difference between art that Christians find offensive and art Muslims find offensive is the threat of violence. If Christian groups are offended by something, that something will happen anyway, because Christians normally do not resort to violence in those situations. Respect for religions are important, but in a secular society if you don't like the opera, then don't buy a ticket. It is ridiculous that anyone should have to walk on egg shells for fear of violence.
    Well put. Respect and tolerance? Where?
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    Post Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency


    Neuenfels has insisted his staging not be altered, saying the scene where the king presents the severed heads represents his protest against "any form of organized religion or its founders."
    This quote proves that the playwright is not just making art, but is actually showing his contempt for the Prophets (pbut) at the same time.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman View Post


    This quote proves that the playwright is not just making art, but is actually showing his contempt for the Prophets (pbut) at the same time.
    Millions of plays have made a political or social statement.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency



    This is about art, not about politics," Kenan Kolat told Bavarian Radio. "We should not make art dependent on religion -- then we are back in the Middle Ages."
    if thats the case then people will do anything and ad claim that it is art and not politics!...that statement was ridiculous!

    Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency


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    Post Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    Millions of plays have made a political or social statement.

    But you can't say 'it's just art' if it's intended as an insult! Criticism is acceptable, insults are stupid and juvenile.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman View Post

    But you can't say 'it's just art' if it's intended as an insult! Criticism is acceptable, insults are stupid and juvenile.
    What is "Just Art"?

    Almost any political statement will insult someone.
    Almost any religious statement will insult someone.
    Almost any nationalistic statement will insult someone.
    Almost any racial statement will insult someone.

    If we eliminate everything that insults anyone, there will be nothing left.

    http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861695679/art.html
    ART - 1. creation of beautiful things: the creation of beautiful or thought-provoking works, e.g. in painting, music, or writing
    Notice “thought-provoking”. So maybe it is "Just Art".
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    Post Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    What is "Just Art"?

    Almost any political statement will insult someone.
    Almost any religious statement will insult someone.
    Almost any nationalistic statement will insult someone.
    Almost any racial statement will insult someone.

    If we eliminate everything that insults anyone, there will be nothing left.

    There is a difference between making somebody feel insulted and actually using an insult. This is how I meant it:
    to insult
    to assault verbally; to be deliberately rude to
    Wiktionary

    This is how you took what I said:
    insulting

    containing insult, or having the intention of insulting
    'He received an insulting letter. '
    Wiktionary

    url]http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861695679/art.html[/url]

    Notice “thought-provoking”. So maybe it is "Just Art"
    If some deranged person drew a picture of you and all your relatives naked, smeared in faeces and being burnt alive wouldn't you consider that an insult?

    Besides, there are other ways to quietly criticise people's beliefs in plays without just insulting them.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    If some deranged person drew a picture of you and all your relatives naked, smeared in faeces and being burnt alive wouldn't you consider that an insult?
    Of course I would concider it an insult. But I wouldn’t kill him. His neighbors would need not fear because they lived on the same block as he did.

    Besides, there are other ways to quietly criticise people's beliefs in plays without just insulting them.
    Your point? Should insulting bring the death penalty? Do you advocate governmental laws that require us all to be nice to each other? Why no opposition to the “One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood” thread? What Christian would not be insulted by it?
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    Of course I would concider it an insult. But I wouldn’t kill him. His neighbors would need not fear because they lived on the same block as he did.


    Your point? Should insulting bring the death penalty? Do you advocate governmental laws that require us all to be nice to each other? Why no opposition to the “One Hundred Christian Proofs Of Islamic Falsehood” thread? What Christian would not be insulted by it?

    sorry, throughout the thread i dont recall Fishman agreeing that they should be violent, only saying that they should insult others!
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...9209EB2973.htm

    Flemming Rose said
    bowing to fears of a violent Muslim reaction would only worsen the problem: "You play into the hands of the radicals. You are telling them: your tactics are working. This is a victory for the radicals. It's weakening the moderate Muslims who are our allies in this battle of ideas."
    And I could not agree more.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    Here we go again, "Let's dip our hands in hot oil and see what happens".
    Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    It is Allah, except Whom there is no God; the King, the Pure, the Giver of Peace, the Bestower of Safety, the Protector, the Most Honourable, the Compeller, the Proud; Purity is to Allah from all what they ascribe as partners (to Him)! Al-Quran 59:23
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    Its sick that people out there would intentionally hurt the feelings of billions for their own fame, the person new they would be in the spot light at the expense of the muslims.

    And the christians of course do not mind, why should they mind that Jesus's head is severed and placed in a bag? after all they put the man on on a cross with nails dripping with blood, always happy with any display of "pain" their beloved Jesus went through for them.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency



    They want us to make of our religion as they have made theirs in favor of "free speech" and "democracy". They take their religion as play and amusement. That is what they want us to do. They want us to take the Quran as they have taken their Bible, as a story book. That will never happen.

    58: 19. Shaitan (Satan) has overtaken them. So he has made them forget the remembrance of Allah. They are the party of Shaitan (Satan). Verily, it is the party of Shaitan (Satan) that will be the losers!
    20. Those who oppose Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad saws 5 - Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency), they will be among the lowest (most humiliated).

    21. Allah has decreed: "Verily! It is I and My Messengers who shall be the victorious." Verily, Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum View Post
    How bazar, you say it is sick to intentionally hurt and turn around and say something intentionally to hurt. How bazar.
    Im just sick of hearing "Muslims Over react" when the people fully know we don't allow portrayal of many things in art especially our Prophet(SAW) and their companions...I THINK IT A WELL KNOWN FACT NOW DON'T YOU?

    And then People come and say how "The christians" don't mind and look at the "MUSLIMS". Fact is christians will not mind because they themselves portray Jesus in a degraded state in the church.
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    Re: Opera:Abuse of Respect/Decency

    Salaam,

    The german are up in arm,,that is their politicians who say that the SHOW MUST GO ON..They wish to force the opera to open the show,

    This is their testament,to insult and thus from these mockery they call it ART..

    May i ask to the westerners here,do you need to slap someone or insult someone to learn humility and decency?
    Or are you seeking to learn how to be brutal and unthinking?

    What is the goal of the western world in making these offesive shows?
    What does it help them as a whole and as a human being?


    The severed heads are an addition by director Neuenfels to the 225-year-old opera, which was last performed by the company in March 2004
    I just wish to highlight that this beheading is AN ADDITION.
    Is this a necessary addition,to convey the shows meaning?
    Last edited by Zulkiflim; 09-29-2006 at 11:21 PM.
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