I've come to talk to you guys about Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the man who single-handedly broke up the Caliphate and threw Turkey head-first into future apostasy. Ataturk took pride in breaking up the Caliphate and has a legacy for it - a shameful legacy that too many Turks, sadly, take pride in.
For those who do not know Ataturk, its best to start with his disgusting, anti-Islamic Reforms:
Political Reforms
Abolition of the office of the Ottoman Sultan ruling since 1218, sending the last members of the House of Osman out of the country, and therefore giving the Turkish nation the right to exercise popular sovereignty via representative democracy
Proclamation of the new Turkish state as a republic - Republic of Turkey
Abolition of the office of caliphate held by the Ottomans since 1517
Social Reforms
Reform of headgear and dress
Adoption of international calendar, hours and measurements (As opposed to the Islamic calendar)
Legal Reforms
Closure of Islamic courts and the abolition of Islamic canon law (Death of Sharia in Turkey)
Transfer to a secular law structure by adoption from Swiss Civil Code and other laws (As opposed to Sharia)
Introduction of the new penal law modeled after Italian Penal Code (As opposed to Sharia)
Complete separation of government and religious affairs and the inclusion of the principle of laïcité in the constitution
Educational/Cultural Reforms
Abolishing of religious education system and the introduction of a national education system as the uniform standard (Unification of education)
Adoption of the new Turkish alphabet, derived from the Latin Alphabet (Ataturk opposed Arabic alphabets used in the Holy Quran)
Regulation of the university education
Economic Reforms
Abolition of capitulations of the Ottoman Empire in effect since the 15th century
Abolition of tithes (Ataturk opposed giving money to MOSQUES)
Last edited by Dahir; 11-16-2006 at 09:49 PM.
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
And what a wonderful job Ataturk did! Now, in a hundred years, will Turkey be Atheist or Catholic?
...
How about a country where one can worship how they see fit, regardless of the religion? Is that concept so horrible? Must everyone be forced to create and live in an Islamic state or be deemed "enemies of Islam"?
How about a country where one can worship how they see fit, regardless of the religion? Is that concept so horrible? Must everyone be forced to create and live in an Islamic state or be deemed "enemies of Islam"?
People can worship as they fit, regardless of the religion. But Christians must worship as Christians, Jews as Jews, Muslims as Muslims and so forth. Only those who sought to pervert the teachings of Islam will be deemed "enemies of Islam" as are those who lambast Islam head-on. In this case, Attaturk sought to change the Muslim Turkey into a secularist state. He perverted the fundamentals of Islam that the Turks have been following.
People can worship as they fit, regardless of the religion. But Christians must worship as Christians, Jews as Jews, Muslims as Muslims and so forth. Only those who sought to pervert the teachings of Islam will be deemed "enemies of Islam" as are those who lambast Islam head-on. In this case, Attaturk sought to change the Muslim Turkey into a secularist state. He perverted the fundamentals of Islam that the Turks have been following.
Exactly my point to Keltoi. And in a TOTAL secular state, not the US, but FRANCE, you can't practice Christianity or Judaism in public!
In an Islamic state, you can practice any religion, even build places of worship.
I deem him an enemy because he vowed to minimalize ALL religions in society.
Now, I NEVER say bad things about America on the religious front, America is a very religiously-free nation, and I'm very happy about that. But the countries that are on my BAD list are several nations in Europe like France, Holland, and Communist nations like China, Vietnam, DPRK, and Russia.
Now, Keltoi, do you still believe I'm against non-Muslims? Because this has NOTHING to do with non-Muslim religions. Secularism (absolute) seeks to halt ALL religions.
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
Exactly my point to Keltoi. And in a TOTAL secular state, not the US, but FRANCE, you can't practice Christianity or Judaism in public!
<snip>
Now, I NEVER say bad things about America on the religious front, America is a very religiously-free nation, and I'm very happy about that. But the countries that are on my BAD list are several nations in Europe like France, Holland, and Communist nations like China, Vietnam, DPRK, and Russia.
You keep repeating that about Holland. But it is nonsense! You can certainly practise religion in public. In fact, holland has a very liberal history regarding religious freedom. In the 17th and 18th century people from all over Europe fled to Holland because it did not prosecute its religious minorities. Let me repeat this statistic again, there are more Islamic schools in Holland than in the rest of Western Europe combined. These schools are actually subsidized by the state! To say Holland is highly secular is nonsense. To say religious minorities here would have fewer rights that Dhimmis or polytheists in an Islamic state is even more nonsense! Muslims are free to preach and convert all they want, the same could not be said for non-Muslims in an islamic state.
Could you give me one example of something that would be allowed in the US and not in Holland? And don't say 'wear a burqa', because that isn't actually law yet!
Now, Keltoi, do you still believe I'm against non-Muslims? Because this has NOTHING to do with non-Muslim religions. Secularism (absolute) seeks to halt ALL religions.
Again, nonsense. France has plenty of Mosques and plenty of Churches. There also no issue with religion in the public space. The only restrictions are in government institutions, like schools, court rooms and hospitals. You can build a mosque in France, you can proselytize all you want. Secularism does not attempt to kill religion in society, it merely tries to keep religion out of government.
If you saw my post, I was speaking mainly of ABSOLUTE secularism. I only used several European nations as examples because all of these secular bills are popping up all at the same time.
10 years I say, before Europe becomes Soviet-style.
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
How about a country where one can worship how they see fit, regardless of the religion? Is that concept so horrible? Must everyone be forced to create and live in an Islamic state or be deemed "enemies of Islam"?
Ataturk did more then only secularise Turkey he also forbade a lot of stuff, guys wearing a beard where arrested woman were not allowed to wear hijab in schools or when working in govermental offices. This isn't taking a neutral secular stand but is contra-religion. It's a degenerate oppression from atheism that is no beginning in difrent European countries to.
the reason many Turks worship him is because of his military success in the battle of canackle where he defended Turkey against The European alliance. I think that's stupid, it wasn't ataturk who won the battle, but the thousands of man and woman who fought and risked their live there that won the battle. However I keep being amazed by the irony of how a man can be admired for defending it's country against the western world and then despised for opening the gates wide open to western corruption at the same time.
If you saw my post, I was speaking mainly of ABSOLUTE secularism. I only used several European nations as examples because all of these secular bills are popping up all at the same time.
10 years I say, before Europe becomes Soviet-style.
I actually believe a movement in the opposite direction is possible. Not towards tolerance per se, but I believe Europeans will start to embrace their Christian roots. Not as believers, but as a source of identity.
I actually believe a movement in the opposite direction is possible. Not towards tolerance per se, but I believe Europeans will start to embrace their Christian roots. Not as believers, but as a source of identity.
I too agree on that front. I've been seeing major uprisings of rightwing religious groups, but mainly from the Mediterrannean; in France, Italy, and Spain.
It seems both worlds will collide in the next decade.
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
Ataturk did more then only secularise Turkey he also forbade a lot of stuff, guys wearing a beard where arrested woman were not allowed to wear hijab in schools or when working in govermental offices. This isn't taking a neutral secular stand but is contra-religion. It's a degenerate oppression from atheism that is no beginning in difrent European countries to.
the reason many Turks worship him is because of his military success in the battle of canackle where he defended Turkey against The European alliance. I think that's stupid, it wasn't ataturk who won the battle, but the thousands of man and woman who fought and risked their live there that won the battle. However I keep being amazed by the irony of how a man can be admired for defending it's country against the western world and then despised for opening the gates wide open to western corruption at the same time.
Do you know that Ataturk consulted religious scholars before he prohibited polygamy?
In the Koran, it requires for guys who want to marry more than one wife to be 'just'. But because it's hard to prove that a guy could be 'just' in the modern days, thus he prohibited polygamy (he acted upon the advise of the religious scholars he referred)
Thus, he didnt prohibit polygamous marriage because he hate Islam...
Women in the West are still considered "property" huh? That is interesting, I will be sure and tell my wife that. As for Islam "modernizing" the world, I think you should look at the countries with a majority Muslim population and compare them to other more secular countries. Granted, progress and modernization or matters of perception, but compared to Turkey, countries like Syria, Iran, Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistian, etc have a long way to go to catch up with the Turkish in terms of economic stability, law, and world influence. I'm not saying Muslim equals bad country, but if one looks honestly at these countries they have a long way to go.
1400 years ago, the caliph tried to set a limit on the dowry, a woman stood up and said, 'islam did not set a limit, so how can you?' the caliph conceeded the point.
1400 years ago, in britain, women were thought to be devils, and burnt as witches, or drowned, and if she floated she was then burnt, if she sunk she was innocent but she still died.
yes muslim countries are backwards, but thats not because of islamic economic policy, thats becasue of western econonomic policy, namley take money money, make money money. under shariah countries flourished.
and really if you think that 'muslim' countries are ruled by shariah then you are sadly mistaken my friend
The freed slave shall walk on the blood of his masters
"Coffee is the only thing I like integrated" - El-Hajj Malik el-Shabazz (Malcolm X)
Do you know that Ataturk consulted religious scholars before he prohibited polygamy?
In the Koran, it requires for guys who want to marry more than one wife to be 'just'. But because it's hard to prove that a guy could be 'just' in the modern days, thus he prohibited polygamy (he acted upon the advise of the religious scholars he referred)
Thus, he didnt prohibit polygamous marriage because he hate Islam...
Brother, you know you can't forbid it, wheter you love it or hate it.
It can be said he done what exactly that.
Whether that person was just or not with his wives, he still would have been delt with under Islamic Law. To prohibit somethin is STILL making a change. You do NOT allow or prohibit what
Allah has decreed already. Simple as that.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Whether that person was just or not with his wives, he still would have been delt with under Islamic Law. To prohibit somethin is STILL making a change. You do NOT allow or prohibit what
Allah has decreed already. Simple as that.
Correctomundo!
Ataturk is sick.
...my only question now is, will Turkey ever recover? And if so, how?
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
InshAllah, lets hope. You wana know something interesting. You remember the story of when the Prophet(pbuh) sent his followers to the Christian king for shelter. I think its now Abyssinia? The Prophet(pbuh) sent them towards the West, rather than the East. If you look now, Muslims are coming to the West for the same kind of thing cuz their dying and unsafe in their own lands. I dunno if that makes sense. Anways sorry getting off topic, it just popped up in my head lol.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
InshAllah, lets hope. You wana know something interesting. You remember the story of when the Prophet(pbuh) sent his followers to the Christian king for shelter. I think its now Abyssinia? The Prophet(pbuh) sent them towards the West, rather than the East. If you look now, Muslims are coming to the West for the same kind of thing cuz their dying and unsafe in their own lands. I dunno if that makes sense. Anways sorry getting off topic, it just popped up in my head lol.
I understand. But soon after, the Muslim world cleaned up and the need for refuge was obsolete. Maybe we need to clean up our backyards.
"This world is a blank price tag, and whatever value you put on it, is what its worth to you. I have made this world priceless and worthless, so therefore I have placed my value in the afterlife."
Exactly! It will be InshAllah. Be whatever the state of the Ummah, Islam will always prevail InshAllah. Allah wont change the state of the Ummah, until the Ummah changes the state in which their in. Thats what we need to work on. Before we go picking on others, we need to fix ourselves. Will then it make sense to fight back I think that makes sense lol. So whatever Kamal did, he'll get what is deserving of his actions.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
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Mustafa Kemal Ataturk - Enemy of Islam? (OP)
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I think that makes sense lol. So whatever Kamal did, he'll get what is deserving of his actions.
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