Should the Taliban....???

**Al_Imaan** · 01-01-2007

I was thinking that many people are happy that the Taliban were driven out of Afghanistan while many other think the Taliban can bring peace there.
I'm Afghan-American and from my point of view, I'm happy that the Taliban are no longer there. The afghans went through enough torture.

What does everyone here think?

**Skillganon** · 01-01-2007

Well in some sense they where better than rubbing shoulders with america.

Study Islam first.

**habiibti** · 01-01-2007

Assalamu aleikum

i was hoping to see an oh yeah option on da poll.I dont see why anyone muslim would oppose to be ruled by Allahs sharia.Yeah maybe da taliban werent perfect but look at afghanistan now?

**habiibti** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman

And how were the Taliban better?? Cutting hands when people steal??

yes exactly.

In case u didnt know,da quran says da thieves hands to be cut so they were following da sharia of Allah by cutting da thieves hands.

**Yaqub Sulayman** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by habiibti

yes exactly.

In case u didnt know,da quran says da thieves hands to be cut so they were following da sharia of Allah by cutting da thieves hands.

Salaam,

Sister you are mistaken. Brother Ansar explains this issue excellently:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al'-Adl

A couple of points to note on the punishment of amputation for theft:
a-the punishment will not be applied if there is any doubt as to the guilt of the suspect
b-the punishment will not be applied if the value of the stolen goods is below something of great value -> determined by 'urf (customs of society)
c-the punishment will not be applied if the thief stole out of need/poverty
d-the punishment will not be applied if the goods weren't in proper storage (al-hirz) -> also determined by 'urf (customs of society)
e-the punishment will not be applied if the thief returns the goods and seeks forgiveness of the victim of the theft, before the case enters the judicial system
f-the punishment will not be applied if the culprit is not a sane adult and the crime was not committed under duress
g-the punishment will not be applied if the goods were not legally owned
h-the punishment will not be applied if it is a child stealing from parents or parents stealing from children or one spuse from another according to the opinion of all jurists except Imaam Malik.
i-the punishment will not be applied if the person is permitted to enter the place from where he stole because in such a case there is no proper custody (al-hirz)
j-according to Imaam Abu Hanifa the punishment is not applied to the non-muslim living in the muslim state, however Imaam Shafi', Imaam Maalik and Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal have said that it is.

If the theft passes these restrictions, then it recieves the hadd punishment of hand amputation. Any theft that does not meet these restrictions recieves ta'azir (discretionary punishment). In such cases the Islamic society would most likely follow case/common law by rule of precedent where like cases are treated alike.

Coming to the scenario where amputation is applied in theft, it is interesting to note the effect this has on society. I'd like to quote some parts of a discussion at a conference of the Saudi scholars:

At this point Dr. Dawalbi made a comment:

"I have been in this country for seven years", he said, "and I never saw of heard of, any amputation of the hand for stealing. This is because the crime is extremely rare. So, all that remains of that punishment is its harshness, which has made it possible for those who are tempted to steal, to keep their hands whole. Formerly, when these regions were ruled by the french-inspired Penal Code, under the Ottoman Empire, pilgrims travelling between the two Holy Cities - Mecca and Medina, could not feel secure for their purse or their life, unless they had a strong escort.
But when this country became the Saudi Kingdom, the Qur'anic Law was enforced, crime immediately disappeared. A traveller, then, could journey, not only between the Holy Cities, but even from Al-Dahran on the Gulf to Jeddah on the Red Sea, and traverse a distance of more than one thousand and five hundred kilometres across the desert all alone in his private car, without harbouring any fear or worry about his life or property, be it worth millions of dollars, and he be a complete foreigner."

The Saudi Delegation resumed:

"In this manner, in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, where Islamic law is enforced, state money is transferred from one town to another, from one bank to another, in an ordinary car, without any escort or protection, but the car driver. Tell me, Gentlemen: in any of your Western States, would you be ready to transfer money from one bank to another, in any of your capitals without the protection of a strong police force and the necessary number of armoured cars?
...Only here, Gentlemen, in this country where Islamic Law is enforced, the American Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. William Rogers, during his visit last year, could, he and his suit, dispense with the armoured cars, which had been carried in by special planes, and which accompanied them in their tour of more than ten countries. Only here, Gentlemen, did the Government of the Kingdom not allow its visitors to go around in these cars. Eventually, Mr. Rogers spontaneously declined the guard of honour usually placed by the Government at the disposal of their foreign guests; he walked through the soulks by himself, and confessed that, in this Kingdom, and in this Kingdom alone, one had such a feeling of security that one had no more need of a gurad.
...Stealing is almost unknown in our Kingdom, when people, in the great Capitals of Western countries under secular regimes, have no more security for their luves of their possessions.

(Doi, Shari'ah: The Islamic Law, Ta Ha Publishers 1984, pp. 260-261)

Personally, I know many people who have lived for ten or twenty years in Saudi Arabia and they have testified that they have never come across such a case of amputation for theft. When you implement such a balanced code, theft becomes un heard of.

Callum, I want you to look at this UN survey of burglaries between 1998-2000. Tell me who is at the bottom of the list? Who is at the top?

1. United States 2,099,700 burglaries (1999)
2. United Kingdom 836,027 burglaries (2000)
.
.
.
54. Saudi Arabia 11 (2000)!!!!

Which law is more successful?

These are concrete statistics here, Callum. There is no doubt when the UN conducts a survey and the country implementing Islamic law has the fewest burglaries, it demonstrates which is the most successful law is this regard.

This is a good example of how the Taliban is conducting Shariah erroneously.

**Malaikah** · 01-01-2007

^Ansar is basically saying that yes, the thief has his hand cut off.

Do you still insist otherwise? I do not see how that supports your point.

**Skillganon** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman

Studying Islam first??

Brother the Taliban were un-Islamic people. They beat their wives and punished people for carrying balloons. They were extreme and intolerant. They are hypocrites who made haraam money. The Americans helped the Afghans. Girls can finally go to school now. Women are treated more fairly.

That's what you read mostly. For example an idiots does something wrong and it becomes the taliban. You have to ask yourself is it better to choose between the believers than the unbelievers. For sure the america (western allies) by far as their intent shows they are open enemy to Islam. They did not do it for the sake of Allah or Islam or for the love of muslim or their desire to implement Islam.

Is it better to chose and help the believers who for the sake of Alah are trying to rule and live by Islam (eventhough they are making mistakes on the way) than to take the dis-believers as allies against them, to kill them.
You are worried about school's and I don't know exactly the specification or reason behind it, but as far as I am concerned afghan is piece of rubbles in the first place. If you can't bring law and order(i.e. Islam) in the first place than what is the point of cryin over schools. Far as I am aware their is no real school infracstructure in the first place to send people to school let alone women.

That is why I said it is better, and please refrain from using the same rethoric of the western media, oirientalist that use against Islam.

Go back to studying Islam read the Quran first, read the seerah of our prophets & shahabah and you will get a better Idea.

**Keltoi** · 01-01-2007

I notice that most people who seem to think the Taliban were so good for Afghanistan live in the West and have never lived under a medieval fundamentalist regime such as the Taliban. I based my vote on what the people of Afghanistan believe, and they overwhelmingly oppose any return to a Taliban like state of affairs. Of course the situation isn't perfect, and many Afghans have voiced their concerns that Afghanistan is more dangerous for people than it was in the past, but of course it is the Taliban who have made it so.

**SATalha** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by Skillganon

That's what you read mostly. For example an idiots does something wrong and it becomes the taliban. You have to ask yourself is it better to choose between the believers that the unbelievers. For sure the america (western allies) by far as their intent shows they are open enemy to Islam. They did not do it for the sake of Allah or Islam or for the love of muslim or their desire to implement Islam.

Go back to studying Islam read the Quran first, read the seerah of our prophets & shahabah and you will get a better Idea.

Tru bro. These are the days of Jahilliya. Untrust worthy people will be trusted and trust worthy people will be untrusted. Thats what the Prophet said. Listen dont believe everything in the media. Yes they might of not been perfect but at least they where trying to Implement Allahs law. And who can debate against the Law of God! You need to be objective and see the long term benefits of Shariah. If implemented with correctly thant Shariah works. But if you do not have the structure (e.g saudi) than shariah will not work. The Taliban atleast tried to implement it. That is what the West are scared of, our past glory is all due to Allahs Law and the Sunnah. It will return!

**Fishman** · 01-01-2007

Do I think the Taliban are the best choice for Afganistan? No. Do I think that they are better than the current government? I don't know.

**Keltoi** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by SATalha

Tru bro. These are the days of Jahilliya. Untrust worthy people will be trusted and trust worthy people will be untrusted. Thats what the Prophet said. Listen dont believe everything in the media. Yes they might of not been perfect but at least they where trying to Implement Allahs law. And who can debate against the Law of God! You need to be objective and see the long term benefits of Shariah. If implemented with correctly thant Shariah works. But if you do not have the structure (e.g saudi) than shariah will not work. The Taliban atleast tried to implement it. That is what the West are scared of, our past glory is all due to Allahs Law and the Sunnah. It will return!

The "West" is scared of a medieval ideology based on the beating of women and the destruction of historical treasures? Perhaps, but probably not for the reasons you would like to believe.

**SATalha** · 01-01-2007

The Historical tresures what benefits will they bring you. They are jsut idol worshipping. Pointless. Research the Quran and realise the buety of Gods words.

**Trumble** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by SATalha

The Historical tresures what benefits will they bring you. They are jsut idol worshipping. Pointless. Research the Quran and realise the buety of Gods words.

It is destruction of something that can never be replaced for no reason that is 'pointless'.

It is only 'idol worshipping' if people worship them, and even then it should be their choice. It was just mindless destruction by the Taliban.. and anyone capable of that isn't capable of appreciating the beauty of anything.

**Skillganon** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by Trumble

It is destruction of something that can never be replaced for no reason that is 'pointless'.

It is only 'idol worshipping' if people worship them, and even then it should be their choice. It was just mindless destruction by the Taliban.. and anyone capable of that isn't capable of appreciating the beauty of anything.

Not really. People after a time take it as a place of worship and slowly affiliate it with worship.
Similar stuff happened after our prophet times, and their was way's the companions of the prophet dealt with it.

**SilentObserver** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by SATalha

The Historical tresures what benefits will they bring you. They are jsut idol worshipping. Pointless. Research the Quran and realise the buety of Gods words.

The real point is that the actions of destruction were not islamic actions. They were the opposite of islamic, if islam is what I've been told it is. Islam teaches muslims to respect other religions, does it not?

**Skillganon** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by SilentObserver

The real point is that the actions of destruction were not islamic actions. They were the opposite of islamic, if islam is what I've been told it is. Islam teaches muslims to respect other religions, does it not?

If muslims are following shirk than by Islam it is permissable to destroy this objects of shirk, Idols e.t.c. Respect and leniency goes so far.

**chacha_jalebi** · 01-01-2007

salaam

well if we look @ the present status of afghanistan, then i would say its better to have the taliban in power, mullah omars views were far different from the ones the taliban imposed, he promoted segragated schools for girls and boys, and he said no one should be outside with a non mahram, but sum followers of the taliban, jus didnt let women leave the house, and i think this was a propa misinterpretation of what mullah omar really wanted!

so for the present situation of, someone doing a suicide bomb and killin innocents, i think the taliban would have be better for afghanistan currently!

the same goes for iraq, its involved in sectarian killings and all sorts of crap, atleast saddam had some sort of control over the country!!!!

**SilentObserver** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by Skillganon

If muslims are following shirk than by Islam it is permissable to destroy this objects of shirk, Idols e.t.c. Respect and leniency goes so far.

How many muslims do you think would worship a statue? My estimation is zero. Muslims don't worship buddist statues, it's not even a concern. I don't think shirk was a problem. Especially with the Taliban as leaders, nobody would be that stupid. The truth is, the taliban were simply being intolerant of the existance of the statues of a different religion.

**Hijrah** · 01-01-2007

Taalibaan indeed indulges in soofiyah and numerous other innovations, I think this is a wonderful post on another forum made about Taalibaan and many other groups some love today:

as-salamu alaikum warahmatullah
i need to add this: our objection to al-qa`idah of ibn laden, whether it exists in iraq, algeria, palestine, lebanon or afghanistan, and the other similar groups like taliban and hamas, is not merely because of their methods, which indeed have corrupted the proper meaning of jihad and its goals and methods, but also because of their methodology and the way they understand iman and kufr, tauheed and shirk, and the fact that they resurrected the methodology of the khawarij and, in the case of taliban, sufism and, in the case of hamas, preferring political reform to reforming the creed and practices of muslims by claiming that there is no time to waste.....in the end, they did not establish the khilafah, or reform politics, or free muslim lands, or reform the creed and practices of muslims, but instead wasted tens of years trying to earn victory from allah without establishing the true islam in their hearts and life as the prophet of allah and his companions did......as a consequence, muslims now live in a far worse situation than they were even ten years ago: civil wars, backward economies, division, bidah, lack of safety, sects, nationalistic ideas, etc., which really brings grief to muslims and trouble to their lands.....in comparison, the prophet's blessed jihad and his companions' continuation of it led to the conquering of many lands, including palestine, iraq and afghanisatn: kabul was conqeured by an army that included some of the sahaba, and do not forget who conquered india and who delivered al-quds from the hands of the european christians, it is the same salaf that people today ridicule: i just received an email from a moron who takes osama abdallah as his teacher, attacking the salaf by calling them a sect, so i responded by saying that my sect is the sahab, what is your sect?.....
the salaf: they open and we close, they conquer and we surrender and lose, they succeed and we fail, they establish the religion and we divide in it, they earn allah's forgivness and we do not know how and where we will end if we continue defying them and contradicting the sunnah, we do not practice islam or its faith as they did but we wish to receive glory and might even more than that they received.....al-albani's advice is a golden advice, if muslims but listen and obey, that the young men and women of today should shun all these sects and concentrate on building their islamic faith and practicing it the way the salaf did that one day soon they may see al-quds the same way salah ad-deen saw it after around 200 years of bloody crusader presence......
as-salamu alaikum warahmatullah
jalal abualrub

I read a fatwa somewhere by Shaykh Saalih Al-Uthaymeen condemning them as well.

**FBI** · 01-01-2007

Originally Posted by SilentObserver

How many muslims do you think would worship a statue? My estimation is zero. Muslims don't worship buddist statues, it's not even a concern. I don't think shirk was a problem. Especially with the Taliban as leaders, nobody would be that stupid. The truth is, the taliban were simply being intolerant of the existance of the statues of a different religion.

I went to Mekkah recently and I can tell u some of the stuff some people were doing was shirk, kissing the kaba , making dua to the prophet ect, insulting the Sahaba ect? Some people are lost religion wise so I can see the wisdom in this.