In a poll for the Dutch, 51% ( a Majority) state they are against Islam. Voting to retain a constitution was seen as the Dutch growing frustrations to the troubles of conflicting dutch freedom rules and un-elected Islamic Law within a mutli-cultural society.
Multi-cultural societies within Europe are only a mere 60 years old, and whilst the black community have integrated into western life fairly well, Islam on the other hand is not doing so well. The rise of Islam is seen as a moral dilemma for all European countries. Within the UK it is thought that non-British heritage citizens such as Pakistani do not feel "British" in the true sense of the word. The paradox being that they don't truly feel "Pakistani" either, this is seen as the biggest reason for the rise of Islam for it gives a feeling of unity and identity to ethnic minorities. However, the paradox comes as Britishness asks upon it's citizens to remain loyal to Queen & Country as a foremost importance. Integration is said to be further complicated as Imans within UK are facing accusations of being "old fashioned & out of step" with the culture they find themselves in, some imans in the UK unable to speak English.
The UK first became aware of Islamic issues when British Muslims were burning the book "The satanic versus" on British streets, resembling the mass burning of literature of Nazi Germany the burning of books and support of a death sentence against the Author Salman Rushdie sent shock-waves through British culture for this was not british culture. Then came Afghanistan, and reports that "British" people were going to Afghanistan to fight against the Allies of the UK and fight UK forces. Now with the attacks in London is in essence an attack on their own culture could further split the UK and doom a multi-cultural society to the history books as a failed experiment...........
I am not talking about terrorism, I am talking about culture clash.
Maybe you could help me understand... you mentioned three things in your first post: burning of satanic verses book, war in afghanistan, and terrorist attacks in London...which of these is the cultural clash you were referring to?
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
Also note, N. Ireland has ended it's terrorsist ways. So if you want to talk about the IRA at least acknowledge they are now abiding by a cease fire.
No I aint going to note this nor acknowledge what you say, earlier this year Robert McCartney was murdered and this was a very serious matter that his 5 sisters went all the way to the White House to meet President Bush. Also there are ongoing sectarian hatred going-ons still in northern Ireland, I have many Irish-Catholic friends more than Muslims I would say, and they all say that it's not that great over there. Next time root if you wanna etempt to bad mouth Islam, then use real facts to back up your racist view on this great religion
No I aint going to note this nor acknowledge what you say, earlier this year Robert McCartney was murdered and this was a very serious matter that his 5 sisters went all the way to the White House to meet President Bush. Also there are ongoing sectarian hatred going-ons still in northern Ireland, I have many Irish-Catholic friends more than Muslims I would say, and they all say that it's not that great over there. Next time root if you wanna etempt to bad mouth Islam, then use real facts to back up your racist view on this great religion
OK, I have offended you. Perhaps maybe I should expand a little to show no malice. Robert Mcartney was not murdered by the IRA, whatever our personal feelings are. It is true to say that they were murdered by members of the IRA, this I agree sounds a ridiculous statement. But remember the IRA expelled these "members" as they were repotedly acting outside of the IRA. Whatever our personal feelings on this matter is, this is the cost of peace for N. Ireland. and the "Cease Fire" is still in place and joint power sharing of the N. Ireland assembly will shortly be resumed
Now, sensitive matter it maybe. Again, when we look at the issue of N. Ireland we see territorial dispute in that some people in N. Ireland want to be part of Ireland and not the UK whislt others do wish to remain part of the UK. Incidently, though you will know this the IRA's goal is to see N. Ireland seperated from the UK and part of Ireland.
This thread makes the above irrelevent because you are talking about terrorism "albeit Catholic or Prodastents" is a territorial dispute & not a question of integration with the West for "Integration of the Muslim ethnic minority". To suggest that N. Irish Catholics or prodestants might be struggling to "Intergrate into a western christian society" and I acknowledge you are not stating this but I use it to show why it is irrelevent to my thread.
You mention the black community has integrated into western life fairly well…but don’t forget there was a time when people regarded them as good for nothing but slavery, yes that’s right – none other than this very western world which claims to be so liberated. Hence we had the Ku Klux Klan and the likes of apartheid in South Africa which as yet still has not disappeared completely.
I have to say, and I don't want to offend you further though please beleive me it is NOT my intention. I get bored with this KKK - SLAVERY S. Africa, yes a history that shames any nation involved including England, and many many other countries. Even Scotland who started the whole KKK movement acknowledges some history with a sense of wrong doing. As an example I am married to a Scottish women and I myself am English, I also live in Scotland. Have I to be ashamed or feel remourse or guilt for events before both mine and my parents birth. Of course not, so why are we going on about it. It's an accepted fact that the Black community have integrated well, just look to the England v Poland freindly when Black English playered were subject to monkey noises from the Polish. This is racism today, not hundreds of years ago. So I reiterate what is being said in the Holland and questioned in the UK in order to bring it out into the open and discussed. You have branded me a racist, I say you are from the time of the dinosaur!!!!!!
"If there is much misunderstanding in the West about the nature of Islam, there is also much ignorance about the debt our own culture and civilisation owe to the Islamic world. It is a failure, which stems, I think, from the straight-jacket of history, which we have inherited. The medieval Islamic world, from central Asia to the shores of the Atlantic, was a world where scholars and men of learning flourished. But because we have tended to see Islam as the enemy of the West, as an alien culture, society, and system of belief, we have tended to ignore or erase its great relevance to our own history."
I agree with the Princes remarks. I further add that I support his position as being the defender of faiths" & not a "defender of faith". This does not mean we are not supposed to talk about the Negative side of religous integration, nobody talks about it because they get branded Racist like you have branded me. However, we should acknowledge that it is not "wise" simply to bury our heads and pretend integration is a smnooth running loving all procedure for it is not. If you don't want to talk about it, don't post on it............
With regards to this: first of all, I don’t care for the notions a few people doing a bit of ‘thinking’ receive, but I think it quite harsh that such people should expect people of any race to forget their culture when they come to Britain.
Nah, we don't want you to. Pakistani, and I spent 3 months in Pakistan last year are a great people. We are not talking race, I used the pakistani example from the start because I am so fond of their culture and Pakistan itself. I stayed in Karachi. I think Pakistani-British are great, I think all races are. I think British Suicide Bombers don't blow themselves up out of loyalty tp Pakistan, this Racist that you call me even walks down the street with a Kaftan on given to me by my pakistani friends, I wear it out and people often comment but i simply tell them "This is Pakistani culture, not Islamic and why should I not wear based on other peoples ignorance". It's not a racial issue at all, far from it.
In closing, I hope you are not offended. But being a stringent Muslim in a western society is bound to cause many issues, it is the negative issues that I want to discuss.
Maybe you could help me understand... you mentioned three things in your first post: burning of satanic verses book, war in afghanistan, and terrorist attacks in London...which of these is the cultural clash you were referring to
?
Them all, but not in the context of terrorism. The impacts within the multi-cultural society like the UK
lol typical - look at the negatives. Well sorry mate you've gone the worng way looking at this, first of all the thread's title should be different if you want to look at this issue. You use the word "stringent" but the truth is you should say fundamental. If this great religion wasn't fundamental how could it be the true religion, why would it continue to be the religion that's got the biggest increase of followers, why would it make 100% sense? lol root the issue for you isn't about about the negatives its the posotives
I was hoping for a deeper elaboration. I would like to know where there is a cultural clash, you haven't pointed one out so far.
Them all,
You mean that you think these are cultural clashes? I disagree.
The first thing you mentioned was the burning of the satanic verses book. Who's culture is that part of?! Is it an Islamic ritual to burn books?! Is that what you're implying? And which culture does Salman Rushdie fall under? His malicious slander and lies are rightfully burned.
How this can be seen as a clash of culture is beyond me. If anything, the clash here is between Rushdie's intolerance and fanatical hatred/slander of Muslims, and the Muslim desire to defend their religion from such lies.
Secondly, you connected it to the Nazis. It is actually analogous to Jews burning Hitler's Mein Kampf in order to save millions of lives from the hatred propagated by such a book.
The next example of a cultural clash you cited was the war in afghanistan, yet you claimed you were not speaking of terrorism. Is the war in Afghanistan not part of the War on Terror?!
Sorry, this isn't a cultural clash either.
Lastly, you mentioned the London bombings which Muslims all agree to be terrorist activities. I assure you, bombing is not a "cultural" thing.
but not in the context of terrorism. The impacts within the multi-cultural society like the UK
From the above, it should be clear that you have produced no evidence of any cultural clash between Muslims and the west/europe. Such a clash is - in my opinion - non-existent.
Regards
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
You made a lot of points: So it will take time to respond. However let us clear up something from the Outset:
I am not talking about terrorism, I am talking about culture clash. The IRA are catholics yes, but their aim is not religous. Catholics who at the time were outnumbered by prodestants by 2:1, wanted to be re-united with Ireland as an end to N.Ireland.
Also note, N. Ireland has ended it's terrorsist ways. So if you want to talk about the IRA at least acknowledge they are now abiding by a cease fire. So to all tense and purpose it is irrelevent now............
Many of the terrorists and so called "terrorists" there aim is not religious they dont want everyone to convert to islam that is not there aim, there aim is to make changes against oppression in palestine, chechnya, iraq etc and however they go about it (like killing innocent people which we dont agree with) that is what they want to achieve, for justice to be done. So why label them "islamic" terrorists when there aim isnt about converting people?
Last edited by Khattab; 07-17-2005 at 01:37 AM.
"Lo! the Hour is surely coming, there is no doubt thereof; yet most of mankind believe not." (Al-Ghafir:59)
I understand though I don't support why Islam has such hatred for the Jews, and they do. To deny this is silly
Islam does not hate Jews.
They are regarded as 'People of the Book' believing in One God as we do.
There is certainly a hatred amongst many Muslims for the actions of the Israeli State against the Palistinians. This is not correct but far more understandable.
Sorry to be silly but a small moment of truth probably wont hurt.
I never said all terrorists were religous, far from it. And the reason why I would call someone an Islamic terrorist is simply because albeit wrongly in the Majority of Muslims. Islamic terrorists use the Koran to assist in the justifications of thier actions!!!
In the case of N. Ireland. The terrorism was not simply a religous motivation, it was territorial. It was not fighting oppression, defending the oppressed and they did not use religion as a means of justification of their own political intentions. You have completely ignored the main place on this planet that is worse off than even Iraq & Palestine, Africa. Do you not care for them or something!
Root
I never said that you said all terrorists where religious, what justification do these people get from the Qur'an for killing innoncents? Where in the Qur'an are there acts supported? There is none so how can they use the Qur'an to justify there acts. These are terrorists and killers full stop.
Of course I care about Africa, but thats got nothing to do with the thread we where talking about something completely different. Palestine is just as bad as Africa in many respects but this is not what we are discussing.
Also Islam does not have hatred for the Jews, many muslims and jews have lived in peace side by side when we look back in history. And have in times fought alongside one another. You have simply made a statement and made it out like it is fact. This is your misunderstood belief which is simply not true.
"Lo! the Hour is surely coming, there is no doubt thereof; yet most of mankind believe not." (Al-Ghafir:59)
I guess it won't hurt to throw a post in from me, as well...
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Freedom of speech. And your words are exactly what part of the problem is. You cannot be British and subject to British rule law & order and accept a death sentence upon him, you are acting outside the law and outside of British culture.
You just changed the subject (again). We were talking about the burning of the books and now you're talking about a death sentence issued by Khomeini. I hope you can appreciate that Khomeini, a Shia, in no way represents Islamic 'culture'.
I understand though I don't support why Islam has such hatred for the Jews, and they do.
1. Islam has no hatred for jews, The Prophet saws's wife was Jewish, plus this narration:
Once the Prophet was seated at some place in Madinah, along with his Companions. During this time a funeral procession passed by. On seeing this, the Prophet stood up. One of his Companion remarked that the funeral was that of a Jew. The Prophet replied, “Was he not a human being?” (Bukhari, Muslim)
2. You skipped the subject completely! You made an erroneous connection of the burning of this book with the Nazi burnings, so I corrected it with a more appropriate analogy - that if the Jews were to burn Mein Kampf, would you call that a cultural clash between Jews and Germans?!
Answer that question please.
How can you say that, it's part of the root cause.
Sorry root the only thing evident is your bs. Every minority has it's troubles are you telling me black ghettos don't exist? That an unproportionately high number of black people aren't in prisons and in the drugs trade?
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Root
BTW can we have the source of your "51% against islam" now please
A paradox?
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