This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Million Protesters Gather In Istanbul
Updated: 17:52, Sunday April 29, 2007
Up to a million protesters have gathered in Istanbul accusing the government of planning an Islamist state and demanding it withdraw its presidential candidate.
Despite the Istanbul protests and a threat from the powerful army to intervene in the election, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, architect of Turkey's EU membership drive, said he would remain the ruling AK Party's candidate for head of state.
The protesters flooded the streets of Turkey's largest city to priase the army and denounce Gul and Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK Party enjoys a huge parliamentary majority, as a threat to a secular order separating state and religion.
"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," they chanted.
"Turkey is under threat from the AK Party leadership. We will not be able to express our thoughts like this if they stay in power," said protester Cigdem Yilmaz, 22, a student.
Top Turkish businessmen called for early parliamentary elections, which the AK party would appear well placed to win.
Many secularists are worried by Gul's Islamist past and the fact his wife wears the Muslim headscarf banned in universities and public offices.
But the AK Party, which has vigorously pressed liberal reforms and European Union membership ambitions, since election in 2002, denies any secret agenda.
It's really funny how life works sometimes. Give people enough freedom and they will go in one of two directions. Either they will go as far as they can in exercising their freedom (the majority) or they will choose to use this freedom only to practice their religion freely while sticking to the boundaries permitted by their faith (the minority).
I think an economic standard also plays a big role in this. Let's say Turkey joins the EU and becomes stronger economically. Better economy means better living and better education. Will this cause people to come closer to Islam or tempt more and more people to distance themselves from it? It's a hard question to answer. Some might say that if you have better education, especially Islamic education (and no I don't mean indoctrination) that you would be more attracted to the Islamic life because you can see the truth and feel the spirit of Islam more than the people who don't know much about it. On the other hand, if the education system continues to promote secular ideals while banning religious displays in their schools and colleges, you're bound to have less and less people interested in any kind of religion.
Another point of view is that which I think is going on in places like America now. People have everything they want in their lives so they look for more, spiritually, this in some cases leads them to Islam. Perhaps Turkey will become like that.
I know some people that went to Turkey and told me about the Islam over there, which to me highly resembles the kind of Islam found in Bosnia, which I've seen first hand. If things are really looking like that, then I don't see anything positive about it at all. You might hear the athan 5 times a day, but how many people really "hear" it, and how many people just hear it a nuisance, like an annoying fly that just won't go away, and how many people don't even notice it? And here's one...how many people actually respond to it? More and more young people will be attracted to secular, liberal life, because it's the kind of life that shaytan tells them is good and will make them happy, while the religious people will slowly get their rights taken away one by one until they can't stand living where they do and emigrate elsewhere. The only way to return Islam to Turkey is to organize the situation real good so that more people have access to Islamic teachings, have Islamically-oriented community events (all the time), learn about Islam in public schools while letting people dress how they want, as well as putting some restrictions in the media -- to not be so liberal.
Either that or re-conquer it with an Islamic army :P
cool observation. but i really must say that people in turkey dnt just hear the adhan. i wish there were stats on this but according to my observations and experiences, i must say that 90% of the 99% muslim population in Turkey actually do pray.
maybe brother shev or abdil han can give us a more insightful estimation coz they actually live there.
salamz...
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
turkey is the most un-islamic muslim country i've ever seen.they claim that they are moderate muslim.but they are way on the left.and its an act of kufr (doesn't mean that they are kaffir just doing acts of kufr) for them to be saying they hate shariah and that they believe secularism is better than shariah law. what i think they don't realize is that shariah law is the quran and sunnah.
remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?
may Allah help them, ameen!
Last edited by rania2820; 05-13-2007 at 04:10 PM.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
agreed sis.
turkey is the most un-islamic muslim country i've ever seen.they claim that they are moderate muslim.but they are way on the left.and its an act of kufr (doesn't mean that they are kaffir just doing acts of kufr) for them to be saying they hate shariah and that they believe secularism is better than shariah law. what i think they don't realize is that shariah law is the quran and sunnah.
remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?
may Allah help them, ameen!
im affraid uve misunderstood what i was trying to say...please go back to my old posts and read them, u will realise that we are actually pretty much on opposing sides.
you will realise that ur bias is so full on that u are doing harm to ur fellow muslims by badmouthing them.
i urge u to read my first post over and over and u will get the answers to the comments u have just made about turkish muslims.
mite i add that i outlined the two entities:islamic turkey and the democratic turkey...shariah can only be implemented through an islamic state...not through the muslims living in a country...
May Allah guide the thoughts of our ummah...
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
cool observation. but i really must say that people in turkey dnt just hear the adhan. i wish there were stats on this but according to my observations and experiences, i must say that 90% of the 99% muslim population in Turkey actually do pray.
Whoa!! That's a bit of an extreme over-estimation, don't ya think?? I don't think that you have that many people even praying in KSA, where it's illegal not to pray!
If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.
Maybe you get this impression because of the people that you hang out with, but you must keep in mind that not everyone is like that. In fact, I'd say the majority are quite different.
Whoa!! That's a bit of an extreme over-estimation, don't ya think?? I don't think that you have that many people even praying in KSA, where it's illegal not to pray!
If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.
Maybe you get this impression because of the people that you hang out with, but you must keep in mind that not everyone is like that. In fact, I'd say the majority are quite different.
why do u insist on relating turkey with bosnia...they are so out of line, i have no idea what u are basing ur observations on...
why do i say 90%??? coz so much of the Turkish population is made up of villagers with nothing else to do but pray...there is a mosque on nearly every street in urban areas, especially istanbul, and they are full to the rim at adhan time, let alone non-peak hour...when its adhaning, u can barely walk past mosques due to how rushy people are to get in...and this is only the people going to mosques...thousands pray at home or at work...or even in parks...
"'Cause I hear the whispered words
In your masterpiece beautiful
You speak the unspeakable through
I love you too"
Let's all talk respectfully, because i've seen the posts and alhamdulillah no-one has the intention of offending the other, so we shouldn't take offense if someone throws in an exclamation mark (!) in every now and then.
why do u insist on relating turkey with bosnia...they are so out of line, i have no idea what u are basing ur observations on...
Well, basically Islam in Bosnia originates from the Ottomans, and up till now their way of praying and their customs are identical to those of Turks, which someone told me was following the Hanafi mathdab. Some of these customs are very different than what's practised in all other places of the world. Secondly, a lot of my friends visited Turkey and told me about what they saw over there. Their descriptions were very similar to what I'd seen first hand in Bosnia...and therefore I find it natural to compare the two out of the knowledge that I have.
Here's something from Wikipedia about Islam in Bosnia:
format_quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
For Bosnian Muslims, religion often serves as a community identifier, and religious practice is confined to occasional visits to the mosque or significant rites of passage such as birth, marriage, and death. Due to more modern influences and 45 years of communism, some Bosniaks have Atheist, Agnostic or Deist beliefs (Pre war estimate of 10% of total population). While there are significant numbers of Bosniaks who practice their faith to varying degrees, for others, this identity tends to be secular and is based primarily on ancestral traditions and ethnic loyalty. Bosniaks also have a reputation for being "liberal" Muslims. Headscarves for women, popular in middle-eastern countries, are worn only by a minority of Bosniak Muslim women, and otherwise mostly for religious obligations.
That's the effect of secularism on the country.
format_quote Originally Posted by sumeyye
why do i say 90%??? coz so much of the Turkish population is made up of villagers with nothing else to do but pray...there is a mosque on nearly every street in urban areas, especially istanbul, and they are full to the rim at adhan time, let alone non-peak hour...when its adhaning, u can barely walk past mosques due to how rushy people are to get in...and this is only the people going to mosques...thousands pray at home or at work...or even in parks...
Well if that's the way you see it, who am I to argue? You live there after all. I'm just saying what I've heard and seen, as well as making a logical assumption that a place Turkey, which is a secular country with people protesting against Islamic governments, is very unlikely to have more people praying than a place like KSA which is Sharia country. But again, you live there so you know more than me.
I hope you didn't take offense from anything I said, I'm just posting my thoughts.
Hundreds of thousands of Turks have rallied in the city of Izmir to protest against any government plans to undermine Turkish secularism.
Buildings and streets in Izmir were covered in flags and portraits of Kemal Ataturk, the founder of the republic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6651461.stm
Turkey may have practicing Muslims but they are mute as thousands of secular ones take to the streets. These are old generation Muslims who whorship kemal the kuffar. The newer generations are praciting Islam more and more alhamdulillah, so inshallah won't be long till this old generation dies out and new generation of muslims replace them. Then we can see turkey becoming bit more islamic friendly and not so secular extremist.
There wouldn't be a Turkiye if it wasn't for Ataturk we need to process the fact that when you insult this man you will offend Turks wether there muslim or secular we might not agree with his policies later on in life but let's stay respectfull because he did save them from a brutal Partitioning and if we look at our muslim brothers and sisters in Palistine and the injustice there one will understand why many Turks regard him as a saviour and a hero.
Many governments today who govern a muslim majority seem to be slipping away (or in other cases when they embrace their faith they are invaded), therefore the Turkish government is not a unique case in that sense, i think it has more to do with the pressure that's being put upon them by the EU( membership status in economic terms will definitly boost the Turkish GDP which might explain why the average Turkish muslim farmer is silent towards this administrations foreign/domestic policy) if they were allowed to join it without pre-conditions i think we would see a shift
but calling another brother or sisters ''people'' non muslims or bad muslims is hurtfull and counter-productive since most of the time the person projecting these statements never visited [insert name of the country] but base it upon hearsay dogma which in turn causes a knee-jerk reaction from the offended brother or sister and tada!! a internet flame war between muslims (no not halal beef lol but pure sadness)
The fact that many Turkish brothers and sisters both from Turkiye and abroad frequent (and are members off) various muslim forums shows the great interest many teenagers have for Islam and this goes for every group out there
Let's all pray the Last Islamic Empire that will destroy the present-day borders between muslims around the world and unite them arrives in our lifetime Insha-allah
ataturk was a kuffar, may he burn in Hell forever!
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
There wouldn't be a Turkiye if it wasn't for Ataturk we need to process the fact that when you insult this man you will offend Turks wether there muslim or secular we might not agree with his policies later on in life but let's stay respectfull because he did save them from a brutal Partitioning and if we look at our muslim brothers and sisters in Palistine and the injustice there one will understand why many Turks regard him as a saviour and a hero.
Many governments today who govern a muslim majority seem to be slipping away (or in other cases when they embrace their faith they are invaded), therefore the Turkish government is not a unique case in that sense, i think it has more to do with the pressure that's being put upon them by the EU( membership status in economic terms will definitly boost the Turkish GDP which might explain why the average Turkish muslim farmer is silent towards this administrations foreign/domestic policy) if they were allowed to join it without pre-conditions i think we would see a shift
but calling another brother or sisters ''people'' non muslims or bad muslims is hurtfull and counter-productive since most of the time the person projecting these statements never visited [insert name of the country] but base it upon hearsay dogma which in turn causes a knee-jerk reaction from the offended brother or sister and tada!! a internet flame war between muslims (no not halal beef lol but pure sadness)
The fact that many Turkish brothers and sisters both from Turkiye and abroad frequent (and are members off) various muslim forums shows the great interest many teenagers have for Islam and this goes for every group out there
Let's all pray the Last Islamic Empire that will destroy the present-day borders between muslims around the world and unite them arrives in our lifetime Insha-allah
No sooner had he assumed power than he made bold to declare that he would destroy every vestige of Islam in the life of the Turkish nation. Only when the authority of Islam was utterly eliminated could Turkey "progress" into a respected, modern nation . He made speech after public speech, fearlessly and brazenly attacking Islam and all Islam stands for:
For nearly five hundred years, these rules and theories of an Arab Shaikh and the interpretations of generations of lazy and good-for-nothing priests have decided the civil and criminal law of Turkey. They have decided the form of the Constitution, the details of the lives of each Turk, his food, his hours of rising and sleeping the shape of his clothes, the routine of the midwife who produced his children, what he learned in his schools, his customs, his thoughts-even his most intimate habits. Islam - this theology of an immoral Arab - is a dead thing. Possibly it might have suited tribes in the desert. It is no good for modern, progressive state. God's revelation! There is no God! These are only the chains by which the priests and bad rulers bound the people down. A ruler who needs religion is a weakling. No weaklings should rule![3]
After his divorce from Latifa, his shamelessness knew no limits. He drank so heavily that he became a drunkard and a confirmed alcoholic. Venereal disease wrecked his health. Handsome young boys became objects of his lust and so aggressive was his behaviour toward the wives and daughters of his political supporters that they began sending their womenfolk as far as possible out of his reach. Indeed, a close associate of Atatürk, Riza Nur, observed that:
Our respected leader has one habit. He loves women. He has to change them rapidly. He must be the chief court-taster.[8]
remember watching a program on CNN a couple months ago where the people were complaining because 1 mosque was being built in a park.and they said they didn't want it built there because its a sign of extremism. how is praying to Allah (they should be praying too) a sign of extremism. is now worshiping the one true god being extreme?
may Allah help them, ameen!
salam aleykum,
sister u misunderstood it i guess..
they re complaining becoz next to that park there is a mosque,and people were saying that 'lets keep green areas,we have already a mosque which is very close to here''..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...
most of the times it looks so different from outside...
If Turkey is anything like what I've seen in Bosnia, then I don't expect more than 30-40% of the population to pray regularly, and only about a quarter of those to actually pray in mosques. And I'm not talking about the jumu3a prayer, but the 5 daily prayers.
salam bro,
the percentage of people who prays 5 times in a day regularly is about 30-40% as u said...
and about 70% goes to jum'a prayers alhamdulillah,
but islam is rising especially among the young people and im hopefull...
and what about bosnian muslims?
by the way,does it make sense to make people pray compulsory?
..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...
Exactly! I saw the same thing in Bosnia. They had this big newspaper ad about how the Grand Mufti was opening a new mosque and spending all this money on it, and even starting an argument with some Croat neighbours for building it. At the end it was just going to be an empty mosque like all the others. Once I practically had to break into a mosque to pray the dhuhr because it had been closed and locked for months. It was a real shame.
format_quote Originally Posted by abdil han
but islam is rising especially among the young people and im hopefull...
I'm glad to hear that. Just don't underestimate the temptations of shaytan.
format_quote Originally Posted by abdil han
and what about bosnian muslims?
Well when it comes to prayer, I'd estimate that only about 20% do so, with only about 5% or less praying in mosques. A lot come for the jumu3a though, maybe about 60-70%. They have strange names for the prayers though, maybe this has to do with some Turkish influence. They call the mahgharib prayer "aksham" or something like that, and the other ones have strange names too.
As for the younger people, in some communities they really are trying to change things, especially communities that have Middle Eastern influence. But I think the majority of communities have very passive young people.
It doesn't help that Bosnia has expelled all of the brave mujahideen that came to fight for the people during the war, who started re-introducing proper Islam into the communities. Those brave men even married over there and had to leave their wives and children behind, only to end up in prisons in their own countries. :enough!:
The extent some countries go to for secularism and EU acceptance...it's disgusting.
format_quote Originally Posted by adil han
by the way,does it make sense to make people pray compulsory?
That actually makes you question a lot of things. Does it make sense to make hijab compulsory in Sharia countries? How about banning alcohol? If you do that, then how is there free will to choose between good and evil?
Perhaps someone else can share their thoughts on this with us...
First of all I'm sorry for my harsh words about Turkey and Turks (like wanting an Independent Kurdistan or to recognise Armenian Genocide). I'm still supporting those things ..but.. I'll keep my mouth shut about those issues for the time being.
Personally, I've met Turkish students in the university (IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia) and they're very religious.
Every year, thousands of Turks visit Malaysia... but you dont see them in the discotheques or bars in Starhill areas... because the only Middle-Eastern tourists who frequents those places are either Arabs or Iranians.
In fact, when my sister attended Islamic History Class in IIUM. While the Malaysian Muslim students were bashing the Turks for being seculars and anti-Islam. Suddenly a Turk brother woke up and said "Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism."
But, as what I've read here..... it's not what we've seen on the TV... We've seen thousands of "European looking" people waving the "Crescent and Star" (which supposed to symbolise Islam) flags and crying anti-Islam slogans. If the majority of the Turks support AK Party, why they dont do counter-demonstrations? We've seen it in lebanon. Why not in Turkey.
As long as the International media are showing those Anti-AK Party demonstrations ONLY... Muslims worldwide would thing that Turks are loosing their Islamic identity.
Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism.
A little off-topic, but isn't Malaysia a secular country in the first place, except with a high Muslim population?
A little off-topic, but isn't Malaysia a secular country in the first place, except with a high Muslim population?
Sadly this is true. The founding father of Malaysia has said that the nation is not meant to be an Islamic state but secularly-governed. Islam is the official religion but so far it has remained only "official".
they re complaining becoz next to that park there is a mosque,and people were saying that 'lets keep green areas,we have already a mosque which is very close to here''..and i say that we need people who followes islam,not empty mosques...
most of the times it looks so different from outside...
vassalam
no i wasn't misunderstanding. you must be be talking about another case. because in the case I'm talking about they were interviewing people about it and they were saying how its a sign of extremism in Islam and they didn't want it.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
Once I practically had to break into a mosque to pray the dhuhr because it had been closed and locked for months. It was a real shame.
I'm glad to hear that. Just don't underestimate the temptations of shaytan.
They have strange names for the prayers though, maybe this has to do with some Turkish influence. They call the mahgharib prayer "aksham" or something like that, and the other ones have strange names too.
That actually makes you question a lot of things. Does it make sense to make hijab compulsory in Sharia countries? How about banning alcohol? If you do that, then how is there free will to choose between good and evil?
salam aleykum bro,
such a thng (a mosque which is closed for months) has never happened in my country alhamdulillah,there are more than 70 000 mosques in Turkiye n all of them is open everytime(busy mosques are open everytime till night but if it s a small one,they open it in every prayer time)..
you are right bro,nefs n shaytan is very very dangerous...
Allahumme ecirni min'an nar,amin..
about the strange names;they are turkish names of prayers bro,sabah-öğle-ikindi-aksham n yatsı...we also use them here in turkiye...
and about compulsory prayers;i understood my fault,thank you brother,and i ve read a book about it(the order of Muhammed'ul Fatih/Ottoman Sultan),he sent this to all governers of Ottomans and he said'' its ur duty to keep people pray 5 times in day and make them obey the rules of sharia''...
First of all I'm sorry for my harsh words about Turkey and Turks (like wanting an Independent Kurdistan or to recognise Armenian Genocide). I'm still supporting those things ..but.. I'll keep my mouth shut about those issues for the time being.
Personally, I've met Turkish students in the university (IIUM - International Islamic University Malaysia) and they're very religious.
Every year, thousands of Turks visit Malaysia... but you dont see them in the discotheques or bars in Starhill areas... because the only Middle-Eastern tourists who frequents those places are either Arabs or Iranians.
In fact, when my sister attended Islamic History Class in IIUM. While the Malaysian Muslim students were bashing the Turks for being seculars and anti-Islam. Suddenly a Turk brother woke up and said "Yes... my country is a secular country... but at least Turkey is not hypocrite like your country (Malaysia)...by calling itself Islamic but practice secularism."
But, as what I've read here..... it's not what we've seen on the TV... We've seen thousands of "European looking" people waving the "Crescent and Star" (which supposed to symbolise Islam) flags and crying anti-Islam slogans. If the majority of the Turks support AK Party, why they dont do counter-demonstrations? We've seen it in lebanon. Why not in Turkey.
As long as the International media are showing those Anti-AK Party demonstrations ONLY... Muslims worldwide would thing that Turks are loosing their Islamic identity.
salam bro,
first of all,an armenian genocide has never happened by my grand fathers...i ll write later about this inshaALlah...
and about kurdistan;there are 10 million kurds are living in my country and we dont have any problem with them,we are equal n they have what we have...
lets talk later about this too...
and about the counter-demonstrations;the army is very strong here n they are supporting those seculars,so if we do counter-demonstrations,it will make the situation worse and the army will think that we wanna stop secularism ..and then they will not allow religious people to live their deen as free as now...60 years ago all the Kur'an courses n islamic schools were closed..alhamdulillah the situation is better now(except the hijab problem)...
about we Turks,i m working as a guide in istanbul and everyday i meet many people from everywhere,and i am very sorry that iranian people(women especially) live like a european when they come here,women make up very very much,and they are dressing up very western!!(i guess u got what i mean)...of course i cant say every iranian is the same but i see many of them...the same situation is in arabic people too but not as much as iranians...
no i wasn't misunderstanding. you must be be talking about another case. because in the case I'm talking about they were interviewing people about it and they were saying how its a sign of extremism in Islam and they didn't want it.
salam sister,
maybe we re talking about different cases..im not sure...
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