This is why Turkey are part of the EU. They have more sense than the others.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Million Protesters Gather In Istanbul
Updated: 17:52, Sunday April 29, 2007
Up to a million protesters have gathered in Istanbul accusing the government of planning an Islamist state and demanding it withdraw its presidential candidate.
Despite the Istanbul protests and a threat from the powerful army to intervene in the election, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, architect of Turkey's EU membership drive, said he would remain the ruling AK Party's candidate for head of state.
The protesters flooded the streets of Turkey's largest city to priase the army and denounce Gul and Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, whose AK Party enjoys a huge parliamentary majority, as a threat to a secular order separating state and religion.
"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," they chanted.
"Turkey is under threat from the AK Party leadership. We will not be able to express our thoughts like this if they stay in power," said protester Cigdem Yilmaz, 22, a student.
Top Turkish businessmen called for early parliamentary elections, which the AK party would appear well placed to win.
Many secularists are worried by Gul's Islamist past and the fact his wife wears the Muslim headscarf banned in universities and public offices.
But the AK Party, which has vigorously pressed liberal reforms and European Union membership ambitions, since election in 2002, denies any secret agenda.
It really is a shame that non-Turkish muslims aren't like that.
Maybe not today, maybe in next century. All the upcoming generations in muslim countries who are now allowed to watch TV even SAT TV will see, what westernes Kids have and what they don't have.
And they will also want to have all that... so what will happen ?
Im Always Right,Its Like,When Im Right,Im Right,And When Im Wrong,I Could've Been Right,So Im Still Right,'Cause I Could've Been Wrong!
An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).
I do agree with the statement.
A secular government SHOULD NEVER BE anti-religion... they should be separating any religious dogma in their country's administration but not on their citizens' personal rights to religion.
I dont see any different between a hijab clad Turk woman and a mini-skirt ones. TURKEY SHOULD FOLLOW AMERICAN SECULARISM PRACTICE. NOT THE FRENCH.
Plus, I dont see Abdullah Gul or Erdogan proposing a THEOCRATIC state like Iran or Saudi.
In Malaysia, we have Islamists too who want a theocratic state, but it's hard to make Malaysia a 100% theocratic country as 40% of the population are Non Muslims, and 80% of the Muslims are Nationalists.
(P/S: I'm not a supporter of either Islamists or Nationalists, but I support anybody who will end up corruption, abolish draconian laws and upgrade the democracy level in Malaysia)
I myself feel like they're selling out their faith for EU membership. But then again, I think they sold it out a long time ago, and we're just witnessing the aftereffects.
So, I guess it doesn't really make a difference to me whether they want to go completely secular or not...aren't they already completely secular anyway? Plus, if they have 300,000 people pressing for secularism, how many do you think want a more Islamic state?
Either way, I feel that Islam in Europe is degrading at a steady rate. Turkey, just like Bosnia, are just a bunch of Islamic nationalists, with a small minority of devout Muslims. Now, it's hard to venture a guess as to whether this will remain as it is, whether the minority will diminish, or whether it will expand, but as far as I see it, they would never agree to an Islamic state in Turkey, so might as well agree to secularism, but incorporate as many Islamic elements into it as possible. If they don't want capital punishment, then introduce zakat, etc. Avoid the controversial for now, and just apply the positive. If things get out of hand, like it happened in Egypt when the rape rate escalated dramatially and they had to apply the death penality to rapists, then they could slowly apply certain things and they would have a good excuse it do it.
Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].
Hadith: "The best of my community are my generation, and then those who follow them, and then those who follow them" [related by Imran ibn al-Husayn in Bukhari].
When turkey tries to apply for membership of the European union, they write all sorts of stories explaining the problems in turkey and why they should not be accepted, one of those reasons was that: they are undemocratic, every 10 Tyear or so the army intervenes to stop a democratically elected religious party. Now the army made treaths to do it again, and some people came on the street protesting, and the European press applauds them???
Well, in all fairness, the EU did issue a statement saying that the military should stay out of politics in Turkey. It is also under EU pressure that the formal role of the military in the government has been reduced. Besides, when did the 'European press' (whatever that may be) applaud the military? I just don't see it, not in the original article, nor in any other news I have read. Perhaps you could give some examples of the 'European press' doing as you say?
the government was elected democratically and their aim was very well known. Just because there are some people protesting the streets we shouldn't throw down that government. The article says a million people, but I've seen other articles speaking of "hundred thousands" Either way, in a city of aproximitly 10 to 15 million people, that is still a minority.
Yes, it is a minority. But by this metric no demonstration should ever matter since there never have been demonstrations in which the majority of the people joined. A million is a lot. It is quite a feat of the organization that they managed to gather that many people for their cause. There have been few demonstrations on this planet in which that many people marched. Still, you are correct, demonstrations should not matter as long as the demonstrators do not have a majority behind them. In fact, even if they constitute a majority I think the political decision makers should be allowed to ignore them.
If the goverment truly messed up, we'll see that in the next elections, for now, we shouldn't be so cautious. What exactly is it that is so dangerous? what has this party done to agrevate so many people? As far as I know, all they try to do is rectify the many anti-religious rules. So guess what, they are actually helping secularity! An anti-religious government (=negative towards religion) is not secular (=neutral towards religion).
A dhimmi is a non-Muslim resident in an Islamic State, it means 'protected people'. As far as I understand only 'people of the book' can be dhimmis. They have many rights, but are also restricted in some stuff, like preaching in public.
Oh wow is this what people are wanting, poor woman studied tried hard got to goverment and as soon as she walks in people make noises and noises and make her leave.
Very humane, that's democracy?
Both those videos are amazing, i mean they get so much hassle for a scarf
Last edited by Umar001; 04-30-2007 at 10:32 AM.
The path is long but I hope we meet,
After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.
A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.
Could you please explain these concerns I had with your post:
1. Do you measure whether G-d is with a nation, by how powerful their military is as a "super power"?
2. How will the "Romans" recapture anything?
1) The earth belongs to Allaah, He gives it to those who are Just, and He will grant it to the believers - the same way He gave the kingdom to Prophet David and Solomon once they strived, sacrificed and showed their sincerety in Allaah. We are going through a similar stage, we will face hardship and trials like the children of Israeel until we fully submit ourselves to Allaah, then He will grant us victory and a huge reward, in this life and the next. But He will only grant it when He knows we are truelly worthy of it.
Allaah says in the Qur'an:
"Allah has promised to those of you who believe, and do good deeds, that He will surely grant them in the land inheritance of power as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion which He has chosen for them. And that He will change their state after fear to one of security and peace. They will worship Me alone and not associate aught with Me." (Qur'an Al-Noor (the Light) 24:55)
And also: "Say to those who deny faith, soon you will be vanquished." (3:12) and "When comes the help of Allah and Victory, and you see the people enter Allah's religion in multitudes . . ." (Qur'an Al-Nasr (the Divine Support) 110:1-2)
2) The Romans are the Europeans, the prophecy of capturing Constantinople [Istanbul] was already prophecised by the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)
The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, told his community that they would conquer Damascus, Jerusalem, Iraq, Persia, Istanbul (Constantinople), and Cyprus, and that Islam would reach as far as the easternmost and westernmost parts of the world.
Recorded in Hakim, 4:445; Ibn Hanbal, 4:303; also related by Muslim, Tirmidhi, and Ibn Maja.
He thus foretold the conquest of Istanbul by Muslims, and indicated the high spiritual rank of Sultan Mehmed, the Conqueror, and the virtuousness of his army. What he foretold took place centuries later.
The stage we are in right now has also been prophecised:
"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida [guided] according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.
[Recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]
Allaah knows best, but it may be that Turkey may get into the European Union, and therefore it may become part of the Roman Territory. However, it will return back to the muslims once again. Only when Allaah wills.
A dhimmi is a non-Muslim resident in an Islamic State, it means 'protected people'. As far as I understand only 'people of the book' can be dhimmis. They have many rights, but are also restricted in some stuff, like preaching in public.
Thanks
and jazakAllah khair fi-sabilillah.
yes we wouldnt want people preaching falsehood but thats for another thread and another topic to discuss.
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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please research on what a true islamic state is, then let me know if you mind it
Who was the leader of this Islamic state, was he a man of today or a prophet that invented Islam? There is no place for religion in politics, as said above, as man who can claim divine inspiration for laws will always succumb to evil ideas. Man is a flawed being, no man has the right to pass the judgement of God on his fellow man, and that is what happens under a religious state.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
Who was the leader of this Islamic state, was he a man of today or a prophet that invented Islam? There is no place for religion in politics, as said above, as man who can claim divine inspiration for laws will always succumb to evil ideas. Man is a flawed being, no man has the right to pass the judgement of God on his fellow man, and that is what happens under a religious state.
So you think that God wouldn't send a prophet who would establish a whole way of life for mankind? Since you believe in Prophet Moses, do you believe that he never came with a political law for his people? Or how about the Messiah son of Mary, you think that he won't come back to this earth and organise a party to fight the party of the anti-christ?
Do you expect only the disbelievers who don't even have a set of specific guidelines or fear of God to only have a political system? So they can harm anyone they want since there laws keep continouslly changing anyway? Or do you think that God sends a set of guidelines for mankind so they can distinguish between wrong and right, good and bad? And what other way will this be except through a Prophet or Messenger?
Freedom: At this time the Caliphate delt compassionatly with those subjected to Muslim rule. If they payed the Jiza they would remain safe. If not.......
List of the pact of Umar here http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html
It's so ironic isn't it? First of all the article doesn't even have a source to it - i.e. Islamic Source.
Second, even if it is true - what does it say? It says that if the people don't go along with the treaty i.e. if they harm a muslim in the state - then they won't get the protection within the Islamic State. That's the exact same reason why they are in that state - to get protection! Is there anything confusing about that?
Compare it to the contemporary superpowers at their time [The Byzantinian Romans/Persian Sassanids] - they would probably kill the person even if they never did nothing wrong, since these people didn't have any fear of consequence for their actions. [i.e. Allaah will judge them on the Day of Judgement] And they made people pay much heavier taxes than the muslims anyway.
turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people(and Allah knows best).
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.
may Allah help us all. Ameen!
Last edited by rania2820; 04-30-2007 at 03:53 PM.
"Religion is very easy & whoever overburdens himself in his religion won't be able to continue in that way.So you should'nt be extremists,but try to be near to perfection & receive good tidings that you'll be rewarded;& gain strength by worshipping in the mornings,the nights." (bukhari vol.1 no.38).
So you think that God wouldn't send a prophet who would establish a whole way of life for mankind? Since you believe in Prophet Moses, do you believe that he never came with a political law for his people? Or how about the Messiah son of Mary, you think that he won't come back to this earth and organise a party to fight the party of the anti-christ?
Do you expect only the disbelievers who don't even have a set of specific guidelines or fear of God to only have a political system? So they can harm anyone they want since there laws keep continouslly changing anyway? Or do you think that God sends a set of guidelines for mankind so they can distinguish between wrong and right, good and bad? And what other way will this be except through a Prophet or Messenger?
I do think that God would send a prophet to establish a way of life for mankind, that is the whole purpose of religion is it not? What I do not believe is that God has sent anyone to Earth right now that has the ability to justly institute the law of God. I also do not believe that religion is compulsory. A law based on religious beliefs and enforced by a "government" would make religion compulsory, so then what would be the purpose of religion if you were forced to abide by it? If God wanted everyone to worship one religion, have one set of values and live strictly by them he would simply have made it that way would he not? But he gave man free will, he did this so we could choose to follow him, to worship him, and to live by his laws. Man laws are made to ensure the safety and order of our enviroment, Gods laws are to ensure ones rights to heaven, it is mans choice to follow Gods Laws, it is not mans job to enforce Gods law. If the Turks want to live free of oppression and free to speak their minds and live their lives worshipping how they wish that is their choice. This does not make them any less of a Muslim than anyone else, they choose to worship as a Muslim, they may not choose to live under someone who would tell them how to practice their faith. If their faith is good enough they will practice it correctly without anyone forcing them.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
turkey claims to be a free nation.but they don't even allow a girl who wants to wear hijab to come in a university. that's just wrong. astagfirallah.and these people call themselves muslims.no wonder turkey has so many earthquakes. natural disasters is one way Allah sends his punishment onto people.
they object to any building of new masjids.astagfirallah.
may Allah help us all. Ameen!
Turkey sits on a fault line, they have always had earthquakes, this is not Allah punishing anyone
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
as far as im concerned those protesters werent even muslims, no real muslim unless he was a monafiq and a hypocrite at heart would go saying no to sharia! thats basically saying no to Allah's law, its like saying your a muslim and rejecting the Quran and Muhammad! so therefore the media saying these are 'muslims' going around are just twisting it around as usual for propaganda purposes such as enforcing this image of modern Islam and moderate muslims, moderate Islam and moderate muslim is nothing more than a person who fully follows western ways and throws every Islamic value out the window and just is muslim by name, thats all, they have nothing to do with Islam.
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Keep it up Turkey, you know what's best (OP)
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