Who has the right to the land? Israelians or Palestinians?

[Sinbad]

I know most of you here support Palestine cause "they where there first", even do Israel is the first nation ever in history to be there.

Whats your argument for this?

[Amadeus85]

The problem is that Jews were first in Israel, not muslim arabs.

HISTORICAL HIGHLIGHTS







17th-6th C. BCE BIBLICAL TIMES
(BCE - Before the Common Era)
c.17th century The Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob - patriarchs of the Jewish people and bearers of a belief in one God - settle in the Land of Israel.
Famine forces Israelites to migrate to Egypt.
c.13th century Exodus from Egypt: Moses leads Israelites from Egypt, followed by 40 years of wandering in the desert.
Torah, including the Ten Commandments, received at Mount Sinai.
13th-12th
centuries Israelites settle in the Land of Israel
c.1020 Jewish Monarchy established; Saul, first king.
c.1000 Jerusalem made capital of David's kingdom.
c.960 First Temple, the national and spiritual center of the Jewish people, built in Jerusalem by King Solomon.
c. 930 Divided kingdom: Judah and Israel
722-720 Israel crushed by Assyrians; 10 tribes exiled (Ten Lost Tribes).
586 Judah conquered by Babylonia; Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews exiled to Babylonia.


536-142 PERSIAN AND HELLENISTIC PERIODS









538-515 Many Jews return from Babylonia; Temple rebuilt.
332 Land conquered by Alexander the Great; Hellenistic rule.
166-160 Maccabean (Hasmonean) revolt against restrictions on practice of Judaism and desecration of the Temple
142-129 Jewish autonomy under Hasmoneans.
129-63 Jewish independence under Hasmonean monarchy.
63 Jerusalem captured by Roman general, Pompey.













63 BCE-313
CE ROMAN RULE
(CE - The Common Era)
63 BCE - 4 CE Herod, Roman vassal king, rules the Land of Israel;
Temple in Jerusalem refurbished
c. 20-33 Ministry of Jesus of Nazareth
66 Jewish revolt against the Romans
70 Destruction of Jerusalem and Second Temple.
73 Last stand of Jews at Masada.
132-135 Bar Kokhba uprising against Rome.
c. 210 Codification of Jewish oral law (Mishnah) completed.

313-636 BYZANTINE RULE
c. 390 Commentary on the Mishnah (Jerusalem Talmud) completed.
614 Persian invasion

636-1099 ARAB RULE
691 On site of First and Second Temples in Jerusalem, Dome of the Rock built by Caliph Abd el-Malik.

1099-1291 CRUSADER DOMINATION
(Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem)

1291-1516 MAMLUK RULE

1517-1917 OTTOMAN RULE
1564 Code of Jewish law (Shulhan Arukh) published.
1860 First neighborhood, Mishkenot Sha'ananim, built outside Jerusalem's walls.
1882-1903 First Aliyah (large-scale immigration), mainly from Russia.
1897 First Zionist Congress convened by Theodor Herzl in Basel, Switzerland; Zionist Organization founded.





1904-14 Second Aliyah, mainly from Russia and Poland.
1909 First kibbutz, Degania, and first modern all-Jewish city, Tel Aviv, founded.
1917 400 years of Ottoman rule ended by British conquest;
British Foreign Minister Balfour pledges support for establishment of a "Jewish national home in Palestine".

[Amadeus85]

1918-48 BRITISH RULE
1919-23 Third Aliyah, mainly from Russia
1920 Histadrut (Jewish labor federation) and Haganah (Jewish defense organization) founded.
Vaad Leumi (National Council) set up by Jewish community (yishuv)to conduct its affairs.
1921 First moshav (cooperative village), Nahalal, founded.
1922 Britain granted Mandate for Palestine (Land of Israel) by League of Nations; Transjordan set up on three-fourths of the area, leaving one-fourth for the Jewish national home
Jewish Agency representing Jewish community vis-a-vis Mandate authorities set up.





1924 Technion, first institute of technology, founded in Haifa.
1924-32 Fourth Aliyah, mainly from Poland.
1925 Hebrew University of Jerusalem opened on Mt. Scopus.
1929 Hebron Jews massacred by Arab militants.
1931 Etzel, Jewish underground organization, founded.
1933-39 Fifth Aliyah, mainly from Germany.
1936-39 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants.
1939 Jewish immigration severely limited by British White Paper.
1939-45 World War II; Holocaust in Europe.
1941 Lehi underground movement formed; Palmach, strike force of Haganah, set up.
1944 Jewish Brigade formed as part of British forces.
1947 UN proposes the establishment of Arab and Jewish states in the Land.

[Amadeus85]

Quote from Charles Krauthammer - The Weekly Standard, May 11, 1998

"Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls written in a script remarkably like the one that today advertises ice cream at the corner candy store."

Israel History

Israel history goes on and on... Event after event... Reference after reference... The biblical record of "Israel history" never disappointed me...

The defeats of Samaria and Ashdod to Sargon II, king of Assyria, as recorded on his palace walls. 1 The military campaign of the Assyrian king Sennacherib against Judah, as recorded on the Taylor Prism. 2 The siege of Lachish by Sennacherib, as recorded on the Lachish Reliefs. 3 The destruction of Nineveh as predicted by the prophets Nahum and Zephaniah, as recorded on the Tablet of Nabopolasar.4 The defeat of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, as recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles. 5 The Babylonian captivity of Jehoiachin, king of Judah, as recorded in the Babylonian Ration Records. 6 The defeat of Babylon by the Medes and Persians, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 7 The freeing of the Jewish captives from Babylon by Cyrus the Great, as recorded on the Cyrus Cylinder. 8

The palace at Jericho where Eglon, king of Moab, was assassinated by Ehud. The east gate of Shechem where Gaal and Zebul watched the forces of Abimelech approach the city. The Temple of Baal in Shechem, where the citizens of Shechem took refuge when Abimelech attacked the city. The pool of Gibeon where the forces of David and Ishbosheth fought during the struggle for the kingship of Israel. The royal palace at Samaria where the kings of Israel lived. The Pool of Samaria where King Ahab's chariot was washed after his death. The water tunnel beneath Jerusalem dug by King Hezekiah to provide water during the Assyrian siege. The royal palace in Babylon where King Belshazzar held the feast and Daniel interpreted the handwriting on the wall. The royal palace, gate and square at Susa where the events of Esther, the queen to the Persian king Xerxes, and Mordecai, her cousin, took place. 9

Wow! Only a century and a half ago, European academics in the "Age of Enlightenment" declared that the Bible (especially the Old Testament) was fictional history. Their primary rationale was that empires such as the Hittites, and kings such as David, didn't really exist. Well, now we have dramatic "archaeological support" for their existence! Moreover, in recent years, the archaeological finds have increased dramatically! Therefore, if the rationale for rejecting Old Testament scripture was lack of corroborating historical and archaeological evidence, shouldn't the same rationale exist for validating the Old Testament record now that we're finding such evidence?

Although the general strife in the Middle East has slowed archaeological endeavors somewhat, the Bible's reliability as a historical document continues to be confirmed by the field of archaeology every day. Although absence of archaeological evidence does not necessarily mean absence of the people, place or event, it may be stated emphatically that no archaeological discovery has ever refuted a Biblical reference.

Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

No archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries.10

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/israel-history.htm

[- Qatada -]

The problem comes from the fact that 'todays modern times' aren't supposed to involve taking over and occupying lands, since it's supposed to be a thing of 'the past.'

So if we're using the logic of 'today' - then they don't have a right over Palestine.


However, if we're using the logic of history, then we know that Palestine became a muslim land, the same way the Byzantinian Romans ruled it, and the same way the Persian Sassanids would fight over Greater Syria against them for it.


If we're talking about a religious sense, then the 'promised land' is for the believers, and Allaah granted it to the Children of Israeel (Ya'qub/Jacob) so long as they kept their side of the covenant [in believing and helping the Prophets/Messengers of Allaah/God] - once they rejected the Messengers, and killed others unjustly, then Allaah removed it from their grasp and gave it to the believers.

This may be one of the reasons why it was given to those who followed Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them.) And the final Messenger of Allaah/God was Muhammad (peace be upon him), and Allaah granted it to the believers again, and the land was for the believers and remained that way until now. One of the reasons why the muslims may be humiliated there is because many of us have turned away from the religion of Allaah, the same way the former Jews did. But He will return it to the believers once again, when He knows that we are worthy of it.



And Allaah Almighty knows best.

[wilberhum]

It all depends on what history you want to ignore and when you want to start marking time. How about if we start marking time 50 years ago? Or do you just want to pick a point that suits your stance?

[Zman]

I know most of you here support Palestine cause "they where there first", even do Israel is the first nation ever in history to be there.

Whats your argument for this?

I believe that the Canaanites were the first there. The Canannites, were the forefathers of the modern day Palestinians.

We can cite:

1. The lands first inhabitants, which were Arabesque. Also,

2. We can cite the Qur'an (Just like members of the Jewish faith claim that God promised them the Holy Land in their Torah, and I believe Christians claim it was awarded to them in the Old Testament).

3. Justice. It truly belongs to the palestinians, and no matter how long it takes, an occupation will always be removed and the occupied will eventually be freed.

What has been unjustly taken, will be return to it's rightful owners.

4. Palestine and Jerusalem have been in the Arabs/Muslims trustworthy administration & guidance for centuries. All members of the 3 Abrahamic Faiths were allowed to practice their religions and attend their holy sites, unmolested (with the exception of the remnants of the Crusading armies who were defeated).

Until, the current Israeli's occupied Palestine & Jerusalem, the Muslims and Christians have had a horrendous time performing their religious duties...

[Amadeus85]

The funny thing is that the name Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quaran.

[- Qatada -]

The funny thing is that the name Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in Quaran.

lol


The city of Jerusalem is known in Arabic as "Al-Quds" or "Baitul-Maqdis" ("The Noble, Sacred Place"). Jerusalem is perhaps the only city in the world that is considered historically and spiritually significant to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. Perhaps you are wondering why Jerusalem is considered a holy city in Islam? Why is this place so important to Muslims?

More info...

"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque (Masjid ul-Aqsaa' - in Jerusalem), whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things."

(Qur'an 17:1)

[Amadeus85]

lol


The city of Jerusalem is known in Arabic as "Al-Quds" or "Baitul-Maqdis" ("The Noble, Sacred Place"). Jerusalem is perhaps the only city in the world that is considered historically and spiritually significant to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. Perhaps you are wondering why Jerusalem is considered a holy city in Islam? Why is this place so important to Muslims?

More info...

"Glory to Allah, Who did take His servant for a journey by night, from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque (Masjid ul-Aqsaa' - in Jerusalem), whose precincts We did bless - in order that We might show him some of Our signs. For He is the One who hears and knows all things."

(Qur'an 17:1)

Sorry my mistake, i meant that the city Jerusalem is not mentioned in the Quaran as far as i know. If im wrong correct me please

[- Qatada -]

I'm not totally sure about the name of the city itself, but the name of 'the temple of Prophet Solomon' is Masjid ul Aqsaa' (the farthest Masjid/Mosque) as has been stated in that surah/chapter you just quoted.


You can read more about it from here:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Be...y-Muhammad.htm




Regards.

[Amadeus85]

I'm not totally sure about the name of the city itself, but the name of 'the temple of Prophet Solomon' is Masjid ul Aqsaa' (the farthest Masjid/Mosque) as has been stated in that surah/chapter you just quoted.


You can read more about it from here:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Why-Be...y-Muhammad.htm




Regards.

Thanks.

[afriend]

Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

[Sinbad]

I believe that the Canaanites were the first there. The Canannites, were the forefathers of the modern day Palestinians.

We can cite:

1. The lands first inhabitants, which were Arabesque. Also,

2. We can cite the Qur'an (Just like members of the Jewish faith claim that God promised them the Holy Land in their Torah, and I believe Christians claim it was awarded to them in the Old Testament).

3. Justice. It truly belongs to the palestinians, and no matter how long it takes, an occupation will always be removed and the occupied will eventually be freed.

What has been unjustly taken, will be return to it's rightful owners.

4. Palestine and Jerusalem have been in the Arabs/Muslims trustworthy administration & guidance for centuries. All members of the 3 Abrahamic Faiths were allowed to practice their religions and attend their holy sites, unmolested (with the exception of the remnants of the Crusading armies who were defeated).

Until, the current Israeli's occupied Palestine & Jerusalem, the Muslims and Christians have had a horrendous time performing their religious duties...

You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

My point? It only works for fellow muslims.

"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

The cananites where eradicated, the palestinians are semites, jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.

Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way". After ww2 The russians occupied eastern finland, Vidborg was a finnish city, but all the finns where pushed out today its an all russian city wiht people who lost their homes in Stalingrad.
Why is it not a debate over this?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.

[Amadeus85]

Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

I guess you are reffering to arabs now.

[Sinbad]

Israelians :confused:....?

Would you allow a barbaric overtake of your home? And be left to sit in the bathroom all day...and when you did come out you were spat at, kicked, beaten....I'll let you think about that.

It happend, its the way of the nature. The brittish and russians invaded Iran in the 19th century. After they left they didnt want to give it back to Iran, they created nations that dont make sence. They collected tribal leaders, draw some map like in africa and south america. Qatar, Baharin, UAE<- my favourite. Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, all so that Iran wouldnt have its land back.

[Amadeus85]

You can not use islam on this, it works great with other muslims but not evereyone else. I asked for a proof that islam is gods religion even if jesus warned us over and over again to not follow a prophet after him. They said "ismael predicted islam", the child slave belonging to abraham i guess. But it only says so in islam not judaism or christianity.

My point? It only works for fellow muslims.

"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

The cananites where eradicated, the palestinians are semites, jews converting to islam. Medina was a very jewish city untill they became muslims.

The palestinians where once jews, evereyone was something else before muhammed and islam.

Modern times does allow counqest, its not an "old way". After ww2 The russians occupied eastern finland, Vidborg was a finnish city, but all the finns where pushed out today its an all russian city wiht people who lost their homes in Stalingrad.
Why is it not a debate over this?

Palestine if you will has always been inhabided by jews even before islam. The last having it was the brittish, they gave it to the jews, why does palestinian muslims have right to it?

I do not support Israel, but I do not support Palestine either. They are 2 unimportant nations that take up to much news.

But Who has the right to the land? Israel of course.

Interesting point of view.

I agree with you in some acpects.

But i think, that in this land there must be two free and independent states- Israel and Palestina.

But before it happen, both sides must leave the "eye for an eye" rule.

At least my old latin teacher said like that always about this topic.

[afriend]

"Allah gave the land to the jews as long as they respected hes prophets, if they didnt, they would lose it."

Ah yes, but they became arrogant and they disobeyed their messenger.

Look at these verses:

5:19O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) apostles, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.5:20And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.5:21O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.5:22They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.5:23Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.5:24They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.5:25He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.5:26He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.

They (The Jews)...were cowardice, and did not fight for what could have been lawfully their's, but they were foolish enough and cowardly not to...Their loss.

[Amadeus85]

I heard that Palestinians are simply Arabs who came to Palestina from Syria and Lebanon lands.

If not, tell me if there was any palestinian king or emperor in history?

[afriend]

The lineage of Arabs and Jews splits with the differences of Isaac(AS) and Ishmael (AS), Isaac born of Sarah(AS) and Ishmael born of Hajrah (AS). Before that, their ancestors were Solomon(AS) and Dawud(AS) who ruled there, with parts of Solomon's(AS) temple still remaining. That is the relationship.