CAIRO: Egypt's official religious adviser has ruled that Muslims are free to change their faith as it is a matter between an individual and God, in a move which could have far-reaching implications for the country's Christians. "The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam? The answer is yes, they can," Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa said in a posting on a Washington Post-Newsweek forum picked up by the Egyptian press on Tuesday.
"The act of abandoning one's religion is a sin punishable by God on the Day of Judgment. If the case in question is one of merely rejecting one's faith, then there is no worldly punishment," he wrote.
In many Muslim societies, converts to other religions are considered apostates and can be subject to capital punishment.
Gomaa said that if the conversions undermine the "foundations of society" then it must be dealt with by the judicial system, without elaborating.
Attempts by Muslims in Egypt to convert to other religions have been hindered by the state's refusal to recognize the change in official documents and in some cases have led to arrests and imprisonment.
"Even though it is not a criminal offense in Egypt, they get detained under emergency laws or are put on trial for contempt of religion if they wish to convert," said Hossam Bahgat of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights.
"This [ruling] is significant, especially coming from Gomaa," he added.
"Between 2004 and now there have been many court cases involving Christian converts to Islam that want to convert back to Christianity who are unable to do so," said Bahgat, who is involved with a case of 12 former Copts who converted to Islam and are now trying to revert.
A spokesman for Dar al- Iftaa, the body headed by Gomaa which is responsible for issuing religious opinions, maintained that the mufti's stance has not changed.
"The posting is consistent with the mufti's past fatwas," he told AFP. "Apostasy is only punishable when it is considered akin to subversion."
The issue of apostasy is a thorny one in the Islamic world, with one extremist interpretation declaring that apostates should be killed.
"The punishment for apostasy is controversial," judge Ahmad Mekky, the deputy head of Egypt's Supreme Court, told AFP. "There is nothing in any Koranic text about this."
The case of the 12 Copts, whose request to revert was denied by a lower court in April, goes in front of the Supreme Court in September, and Bahgat said they will use Gomaa's posting to bolster their case.
"Gomaa is a civil servant, the top religious adviser of the state, and technically speaking the deputy justice minister," he said. "So his views on the matter carry authority."
Comment:
It seems the Government scholars are getting worse by the day, initially they justified non-Islamic ruling, then American bases in the Muslim lands and now this fatwa.
I wonder how they would feel if a family member became a Christian, Jew, Hindu etc?
And where is the evidence from the Quran and Sunnah to allow such actions?
Also will these apostates be accounted by Allah on the day of judgement or will they be judged based upon how much of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism they followed?
Can people leave Islam and become atheists or satanists?
And can Muslims especially women marry these non-Muslims?
Well what can you do? I would not speak to a family member if they left Islam........ then again most people of any religion would feel the sme way if a person left their religion too....
CAIRO: Egypt's official religious adviser has ruled that Muslims are free to change their faith as it is a matter between an individual and God, in a move which could have far-reaching implications for the country's Christians. "The essential question before us is can a person who is Muslim choose a religion other than Islam?
There was a muslim that became a sikh. In fact, Sikhism is nothing more than a branched off sect of Islam in much of the respect that Christianity is nothing more than a branches off sect of Judaism.
There are muslims becoming Druzes, muslims becoming Bahai'is, there are muslims becoming Sikhs, and even some become athiestic or even anti-theistic.
It seems the Government scholars are getting worse by the day, initially they justified non-Islamic ruling, then American bases in the Muslim lands and now this fatwa.
I wonder how they would feel if a family member became a Christian, Jew, Hindu etc?
And where is the evidence from the Quran and Sunnah to allow such actions?
Also will these apostates be accounted by Allah on the day of judgement or will they be judged based upon how much of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism they followed?
Can people leave Islam and become atheists or satanists?
And can Muslims especially women marry these non-Muslims?
Allah, God, Dran, or whatever you want to call it/him does not care what faith you follow. End of story.
All you have to do is follow the ten commandments and the golden rule. Nothing else matters.
Here is a list of punishable accounts that you must avoid:
1) Killing someone in non-self defensive matters.
Murder is forbidden
2) Lying to cover one's tracks in commiting one of these acts
Foul testament is forbidden
3) Procreating or seeking romantic/sexual relations or activities with anyone that has not given you consent.
Rape is forbidden
4) Procreating with anyone regardless of them having a permanent mate (wife or husband) or a largely influencial partner of considerable duration in procreation (lover). In addition, Procreating with anyone without the consent of your own spouse/lover.
Adultry is forbidden
5) Stealing property or possessions from another is forbidden unless the circumstance is of great emmergency or priority, such as food for feeding starving children or money to pay for someone's surgery.
Stealing is forbidden (but only on typical and normal circumstances).
6) Worship of another human being or of one's self.
Idolizing is forbidden
7) Any act of disrespect onto another human being based on religious, racial, sexual, gender, or disability related issues.
Intolerance is forbidden
8) Enacting a martyr-like act on false circumstances such as killing a mere innocent child for being an American with a suicidal bombing.
Foolish martyrdom is forbidden
There are more, but I don't really have to time to provide them to you.
There was a muslim that became a sikh. In fact, Sikhism is nothing more than a branched off sect of Islam in much of the respect that Christianity is nothing more than a branches off sect of Judaism.
There are muslims becoming Druzes, muslims becoming Bahai'is, there are muslims becoming Sikhs, and even some become athiestic or even anti-theistic.
Allah, God, Dran, or whatever you want to call it/him does not care what faith you follow. End of story.
All you have to do is follow the ten commandments and the golden rule. Nothing else matters.
Here is a list of punishable accounts that you must avoid:
1) Killing someone in non-self defensive matters.
Murder is forbidden
2) Lying to cover one's tracks in commiting one of these acts
Foul testament is forbidden
3) Procreating or seeking romantic/sexual relations or activities with anyone that has not given you consent.
Rape is forbidden
4) Procreating with anyone regardless of them having a permanent mate (wife or husband) or a largely influencial partner of considerable duration in procreation (lover). In addition, Procreating with anyone without the consent of your own spouse/lover.
Adultry is forbidden
5) Stealing property or possessions from another is forbidden unless the circumstance is of great emmergency or priority, such as food for feeding starving children or money to pay for someone's surgery.
Stealing is forbidden (but only on typical and normal circumstances).
6) Worship of another human being or of one's self.
Idolizing is forbidden
7) Any act of disrespect onto another human being based on religious, racial, sexual, gender, or disability related issues.
Intolerance is forbidden
8) Enacting a martyr-like act on false circumstances such as killing a mere innocent child for being an American with a suicidal bombing.
Foolish martyrdom is forbidden
There are more, but I don't really have to time to provide them to you.
I tend to agree with you on the Golden Rule and the Ten Commandments. Taken together, they are such a sensible road map for moral beahvior as to be hard to dispute.
I do wonder where you got your list. Is the list you posted from the Muslim teaching? There are many parallels to the Christian version of the Ten Commandments but there are some very odd provisos, such as the "escape clause" for number 5
Number 4 has modifying phrases that makes it sound like it was written by a lawyer I seems to acknowledge a version of the English tradition of "common law" marriage.
As for my personal comments, I think that the ruling makes sense but under very strict conditions. The person that wishes to convert needs to be counselled about Islam by a religious person over a given time period, and then if he still wishes to convert and poses no threat to the Islamic ummah, they should be allowed to do so. I'm no scholar, but this is what I got from the Qur'an and Sunnah as well as the opinions of various scholars.
format_quote Originally Posted by Darkseid
Allah, God, Dran, or whatever you want to call it/him does not care what faith you follow. End of story.
All you have to do is follow the ten commandments and the golden rule. Nothing else matters.
Looooool! I'm glad you're here to tell us these things, Darkseid! So what are you now, our god or something? Should we all now ignore the repeated messages and warnings from the One True God, who knows each of us better than we know ourselves, and just listen you? What credibility do you think you have?
As for your 8 rules and the others you "don't have time for"... you're basing them on your personal views that have been induced into you through the society that you live in by analyzing the behaviour of people over a certain time period and under certain situations. Does that equal to divine knowledge of who we are and what's best for us? Nope
You wanna know what you should do if you really wanna go to paradise? Follow the 8 rules that you wrote (with a little modification to rule 4 which as Cognescenti mentioned looks like it was written by a lawyer) as well as the Golden Rule, and in addition follow the rules the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which you will find do not contradict those in any way, but add more rules to benefit the society as well as the individual. Also, not everything in religion is "don't do this, don't do that". There are actually things that say "do this, and do that", because without those, everybody would be passive and there would never be any progress or advancement.
If I remember correctly shariah law allows for muslims to marry non muslims.. of course if non muslims are unfaithful they are executed..
I think what you mean to say is that is a married man or women commits adultery and it was witnessed by four eye witnesses of righteous character in an Islamic state they would be eligible for the death penalty. In which case it applies just as much to Muslims (I don't know whether or not it even applies to non-Muslims married to Muslims).
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In Holland today the chairman of the 'Committee for ex-Muslims' had to go into hiding, after being physically assaulted last Saturday after leaving his local supermarket. He also received numerous death threats in the last few months.
if any1 changes from islam to anythin else its there choice but there must be a reason for that person to leave!!!
look around u wat muslims are doin around the world and we are suppose to peaceful lovin and carin muslims!!
I wonder is some of the $4B Egypt gets from the US every year goes to the Grand Mufti.
Here if a question, though. If there is no hierarchy among Islamic scholars, how come the Grand Mufti is the Grand Mufti? I have to say to the Muslims here, it is a really, really confusing "system". It seems somewhat chaotic.
Can someone explain this in plain English?
Last edited by Cognescenti; 08-07-2007 at 02:35 PM.
Reason: corrected spelling....OCD breaking through
In Holland today the chairman of the 'Committee for ex-Muslims' had to go into hiding, after being physically assaulted last Saturday after leaving his local supermarket. He also received numerous death threats in the last few months.
Actually, this article clearly shows that the person in question is an enemy of Islam. He publically called prophet Mohammed (pbuh) a "terrible man" while at the same spreading lies about Islam by using examples of badly-practicing Muslims to support his claims.
"He hopes his committee can help Muslims who turn away from Islam and put taboos in the Muslim world like domestic violence and human rights violations on the agenda."
He's clearly up to no good, but nevertheless, I don't know if it's allowed under Sharia law to attack anyone who's doing so from outside the boundaries of an Islamic state. Does anyone here have any ideas?
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I wonder is some of the $4B Egypt gets from the US every year goes to the Grand Mufti.
It's possible. He is a government employee and it's the government that gives him his monthly salary. Whether part of that is from grants sent by other countries is hard to know. Plus, I'm pretty sure Egypt receives a lot less than $4B a year from the US. Do you have any sources for this info?
I wonder is some of the $4B Egypt gets from the US every year goes to the Grand Mufti.
Who said that there was no hierarchy? You can't expect that a fresh Al-Azhar graduate is on the same level as a sheikh that's been studying, debating, and teaching Islam all his life...? I'm not sure how the system works exactly, but there has to be some kind of hierarchy, it's only logical.
Actually, this article clearly shows that the person in question is an enemy of Islam. He publically called prophet Mohammed (pbuh) a "terrible man" while at the same spreading lies about Islam by using examples of badly-practicing Muslims to support his claims.
"He hopes his committee can help Muslims who turn away from Islam and put taboos in the Muslim world like domestic violence and human rights violations on the agenda."
He's clearly up to no good, but nevertheless, I don't know if it's allowed under Sharia law to attack anyone who's doing so from outside the boundaries of an Islamic state. Does anyone here have any ideas?
If thats how we are going to define enemies, then clearly I am an enemy of Islam as well. And you are an enemy of the West and of Hinduism and of Christianity and of Liberalism, etc.. . If having different beliefs and helping those who have those same different beliefs makes people enemies, well, then Islam has A LOT of enemies.
It's like me declaring every atheist who has embraced Islam and wants to help fellow new Muslims to be my enemy. In fact, this whole forum would be my enemy with such an attitude.
It's possible. He is a government employee and it's the government that gives him his monthly salary. Whether part of that is from grants sent by other countries is hard to know. Plus, I'm pretty sure Egypt receives a lot less than $4B a year from the US. Do you have any sources for this info?
..
According to Christian Science Monitor the average since 1979 is just under $2B per year (grants not loans). I can't find the year by year details right now, but my recollection is it peaked at $4B right after the Camp David accord. The Camp David Accord was costly. It cost Sadat his life an the US taxpayers about $50 B
If thats how we are going to define enemies, then clearly I am an enemy of Islam as well.
Why? Do you publically insult prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Or tell people that Islam is a bad religion because a few Muslims behave badly?
It's not about having different beliefs and opinions, it's how you express them or "impose them on others" that tells people who you are. For example, you're an atheist, and although I don't believe what you believe, you don't see me insulting you or your beliefs. In fact, I don't even mention our differences in belief except when they are the subject of a thread.
But if I understood the article correctly, this individual publically attacked Islam through his comments about the prophet (pbuh), and the mission of his "committee" is to put focus on the negative elements in some Muslim countries in an attempt to defame Islam itself. Kinda lousy if you ask me.
Why? Do you publically insult prophet Mohammed (pbuh)? Or tell people that Islam is a bad religion because a few Muslims behave badly?
It's not about having different beliefs and opinions, it's how you express them or "impose them on others" that tells people who you are. For example, you're an atheist, and although I don't believe what you believe, you don't see me insulting you or your beliefs. In fact, I don't even mention our differences in belief except when they are the subject of a thread.
But if I understood the article correctly, this individual publically attacked Islam through his comments about the prophet (pbuh), and the mission of his "committee" is to put focus on the negative elements in some Muslim countries in an attempt to defame Islam itself. Kinda lousy if you ask me.
I have heard this guy speak often enough. He never uses foul language or slings around insults. He might think Muhammed was a bad man. That is his prerogative. That is not an insult.
Your reaction is exactly what troubles me about Islam sometime and what makes me wonder if Western values can coexist with Islam in my country. I cannot believe that you are unsure whether letting a group of vigilante thugs beat up this guy is the right thing to do or not according Sharia law. Such a thing should be beyond debate.
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Re: Egyptian grand mufti says Muslims can convert
I seems to acknowledge a version of the English tradition of "common law" marriage.
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