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Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Mingling and Mixing of sexes (OP)


    The terms “mixing” and “mingling” are used frequently in discussions on the subject of male-female relations in Islam, but these terms were not used at the time the Qur’ân was revealed. For this reason, we cannot find direct references in the Qur’ân and Sunnah that say “free mixing between men and women is unlawful”. However, this does not mean that such conduct is permissible or that Islam has failed to address the matter. Islam has detailed the relationship between men and women in the most precise and exacting terms. It has set down clear guidelines to show men and women how they must conduct themselves with one another. From all of this, there can be no question that Islam prohibits the free mixing of the sexes.

    If we look at every verse of the Qur’ân in search of a direct statement prohibiting a child from beating his parents, we will never find it. It is not there. However, the Qur’ân says: “Do not even say to them ‘uff’.” Can any rational person, after hearing this verse, claim that it is permissible for a son to beat up his mother and father?

    Likewise, Islam has forbidden a woman from putting on perfume and passing in front of men. It has prohibited her from striking her feet on the ground when she walks to reveal the jingle of her hidden ornaments. Can anyone, after considering these and so many other rulings, assume that women and men are allowed to freely mingle and mix with one another?

    The texts of the Qur’ân and Sunnah are limited in number. If we were to abstain from forbidding anything that is not directly stipulated by word in the texts, we would be rejecting the validity of analogous reasoning in Islamic Law. This would leave countless matters of life without an Islamic legal ruling. This would strip Islamic Law of one of its greatest qualities, which is its relevance to all times and circumstances.

    It is absolutely clear from the texts that Islam does not allow men and women to meet each other whenever and however they like. It has placed clear regulations and restrictions upon such behavior and has defined the limits of interaction between men and women. Moreover, Islam has closed all doors that lead to temptation and promiscuity.

    When we consider all of the laws governing the relationship between men and women in Islam, we are forced to come to the conclusion that Islam forbids any mixing between the sexes that might provide even the remotest possibility of temptation. Scholars of Islam throughout history have fully appreciated this fact. We can see it evidenced in the writings of the great jurists:

    Al-Sarakhsî writes: “The judge should try women separately from men since people tend to crowd together in the courtroom. It is quite obvious that the mixing together of men and women under such crowded conditions is conducive to temptation and other distasteful consequences.” [al-Mabsût (16/80)]

    Al-Nawawî writes: “Ibn al-Mundhir and others maintain that it is a matter of unanimous agreement that women are not obligated to attend the Jumu`ah prayers. However, his argument that this is because it brings about the mixing of women and men is not correct. The attendance of women at the Jumu`ah prayers does not necessarily bring about such mixing since the women stay behind the men.” [al-Majmû` (4/350)]

    Al-Nawawî also writes: “One of the vilest innovations, that some ignorant people today are involved in, is the habit of lighting candles on Mount `Arafah on the ninth night. This behavior is gravely misguided and is full of improper goings-on such as the mixing of men and women.” [al-Majmû`: (8/140)]

    In the law book entitled al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî, there is a discussion of when it is permissible to refuse an invitation to a wedding party. It says: “An invitation may be refused if there is any clear wrongdoing at the party, like the mixing of men and women.” [al-Fawâkih al-Dawânî (2/322)]

    When scholars warn against the free mixing of men and women, they are not talking about the mere presence of men and women together in the same place. This is something that is definitely not prohibited by Islamic Law. Men and women gathered in the same place at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) in the mosque and in the marketplace. They walked down the same roads and public thoroughfares.

    The mere presence of men and women in the same area is not a great cause for temptation. It would be wrong to treat this as unlawful mixing, since the reason for prohibiting free mixing does not exist in such circumstances. If someone were to prohibit men and women from frequenting the same public places under the pretext of preventing temptation, this would be taking matters to an extreme and imposing a restriction that is unduly severe. Such a policy is, moreover, unnatural and would impose great hardships on people’s lives.

    At the same time, some circumstances are indisputably cases of unlawful mixing. This would include situations where women and men are crowded together so that there is a danger of their making physical contact. Equally unlawful would be any occasion where unrelated women and men are seated next to one another. Under these circumstances, desires are kindled and temptations are greater and regrettable things happen, as is seen time and again in co-ed schools and mixed social events.

    The same can be said for any repeated acquaintance between men and women. Repeated meetings break down the barriers between men and women and allow a relationship to develop between them.

    We cannot compare situations like these to the general presence of men and women at shops and other open public places, especially when women are accompanied by their family. In such cases, there is no intimacy, no crowding, and no reason for suspicion. Preventing women from public places frequented by men in order to prevent temptation would be taking things to an extreme.

    A woman is commanded in Islam not to come too close to men. She is not, however, prohibited from going to places where men are present as long as she does not approach them or place herself in a position where she is alone with them.

    There can be no doubt that preventative legislation is an important part of Islamic Law. There are numerous rulings in Islam that are preventative in nature. However, this does not mean that we can legislate against every remote possibility of wrongdoing that we can think of. Doing so would be a violation of Islam’s tolerance and magnanimity and its ease of application. It would place too great a burden upon the believers.

    People might differ as to the degree of mixing that is prohibited. We can, nonetheless, get a good approximation of proper limits by reviewing the laws of Islam that govern the relationship between men and women. The sacred texts provides ample evidence about how and when men and women can meet, how women should dress and conduct themselves when they go outside, and many other pertinent matters. It is impossible for free mixing between men and women to occur if Islamic Law is properly observed.

    The body of evidence showing that women and men should not mix freely with one another is quite large. We will briefly mention some of it:

    1. Allah says: “And when you ask the ladies for anything, ask them from before a screen. That makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 53] For women to go about uncovered in the company of men is inarguably a gross violation of the command given in this verse.

    2. It is prohibited for men to join women in one place in the absence of at least one of the women’s close male relatives. The Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade men and women from being alone together. He said: “Never is a man alone with a woman except that Satan is the third party with them.”

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “Do not enter into the company of women.”
    A man then asked him: “What about her male in-laws?”

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “The in-law is the most dangerous”.

    This hadîth emphasizes the importance of being wary of in-laws since they are likely to have more opportunities to be alone with the woman and to see her as others do not get the opportunity to see her.

    The private meeting between a man and an unchaperoned woman is one of the serious forms of mixing that can take place between the sexes. Temptations are worse when the people know that they are shielded from the sight of others.

    Ibn Daqîq al-`خd makes the following important observation: “We must take into consideration whether or not the man’s arrival at a place brings about a situation where he is alone with the woman. If it does not do so, it is not unlawful for him to go there.” (2/181)

    This point was made clear by the Prophet (peace be upon him) when he said: “No man should enter into the presence of a woman after this day unless he is accompanied by one or two other men.” [Sahîh Muslim]

    3. There are numerous evidences that the woman may not shake hands with men who are not among her closest relatives.

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) never shook hands with an unrelated woman. Umaymah b. Raqîqah said: “I came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) with a group of the women of Madinah to swear fealty for Islam. The women informed Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) that they wished to swear fealty to him. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ‘I do not shake hands with women. The way I accept the pledge from one woman is the same as with one hundred women.” [al-Muwatta’, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan al-Nasa’î and Sunan Ibn Majah].

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) also said: “It is better for one of you to be pierced by a steel pin in his head than to touch the hand of a strange woman.” [Al-Mundhirî mentions that all the narrators of this hadîth are trustworthy. Al-Albânî classifies it as a good hadîth in Ghâyah al-Marâm (no. 403).]

    4. The Qur’ân clearly forbids women from being soft of speech while talking to men. Allah says: “Be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak with a speech (that is) proper.” [Sûrah al-Ahzâb: 32].

    5. There is evidence that women may not sit with strange men while wearing perfume. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any woman who puts on perfume then goes and passes by some men to let them find her scent is a type of adulteress.” [Musnad Ahmad, Sunan al-Tirmidhî, Sunan Abî Dâwûd, and Sunan al-Nasâ’î with a sound chain of transmission]

    6. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The best of rows in prayer for the man is the first row and the worst for him is the last, and the best of rows for the women is the last row and the worst for her is the first.” [Sahîh Muslim].

    If this advice is being given for men and women when they are in their purest frame of mind and engaged in prayer, then how should they be expected to conduct themselves in other situations?

    Ibn `Abbâs relates that he prayed one of the `خd prayers with the Prophet (peace be upon him). He informs us that the Prophet (peace be upon him) prayed and offered a sermon, then he went to the women and offered to them a separate sermon, admonishing them and encouraging them to give charity. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    Ibn Hajr offers the following observations about this hadîth: “The fact that he went to the women separately shows that the women were assembled separately from the men and were not mixed in with them.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/466)]

    7. Once the Prophet (peace be upon him) saw men and women mixing together on the road upon their departure from the mosque. He said to the women: “Hold back a bit. You do not have to walk in the middle of the road. You may keep to the sides.” The narrator of the hadîth commented that after that time, women would come so close to the buildings that their dresses would sometime cling to the walls.” [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission]

    Ibn `Umar related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said about one of the mosque’s doors: “We should leave this door exclusively for women to use.” Ibn `Umar, until he died, never again entered through that door. [Sunan Abî Dâwûd with a sound chain of transmission. Al-Albânî says: “This hadîth is authentic according to the conditions set down by Bukhârî and Muslim.”]

    Umm Salamah said: “When the Prophet (peace be upon him) completed the prayer, the women would get up to leave. He would then wait awhile before standing.” Ibn Shahâb said: “I believe that he waited for a while to give the women an opportunity to depart before the men.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    Ibn Hajr comments: “In the hadîth, we see that it is disliked for men and women to mix on the road. How much more, then, should such mixing be avoided inside of houses.” [Fath al-Bârî (2/336)]

    8. It was related in al-Bukhârî that women at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did not circumambulate the Ka`bah along with the men. `آ’ishah used to go around the Ka`bah at a good distance from the men and avoided mixing with them. Once another woman bade to her to go forward with her so they could touch the corner of the Ka`bah. `آ’ishah refused to do so. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî]

    One of `آishah’s handmaidens came to her and said: “O Mother of believers, I went around the Ka`bah seven times and touched the corner twice or trice”.

    `آishah replied: “May Allah not reward you for pushing your way through men. It would have been sufficient for you to you to say “Allah Akbar” as you passed by”. [Musnad al-Shâfi`î]

    There are two things that this shows us. First, `آ’ishah did not hesitate to circumambulate the Ka`bah when there were men around, nor did she forbid other women from doing so. She only refrained from crowding into men and mixing with them and this is what she prohibited others from doing. This shows us in the clearest of terms that the mere presence of men and women in the same place is not prohibited.

    Second, the mixing and contact between men and women circumambulating the Ka`bah that unavoidably occurs during Hajj under today’s crowded conditions cannot be used as proof that such mixing is generally allowed. Firstly, the practice of the people does not constitute any sort of evidence in Islamic Law. Secondly, what is happening today during Hajj is unavoidable. It is permitted out of necessity and cannot be made into a general rule for all times and circumstances. It would be fruitless for us to try and demand that women avoid contact with men while circumambulating the Ka`bah during Hajj. It would be equally impossible to ask them to delay their circumambulations until the crowds depart, especially since the women on Hajj are always accompanied by the others who came with them who cannot be forced to wait around.

    It is pure sophistry for anyone to use these exceptional circumstances to argue that men and women are allowed to mingle under circumstances where no necessity exists. It is just as baseless as taking the other extreme and declaring the mere presence or men and women in the same place to be unlawful mixing.

    We will conclude by mentioning a few verses of the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Nor come nigh to adultery”. In this verse, Allah does not say “Do not commit adultery” but tells us not even to come close to it. This means that everything that may seduce a person to fall into adultery is unlawful.

    Moreover, Allah says: “Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them.” and says: “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 30-31] This shows us how men and women are to conduct themselves.

    (www.islamtoday.com)

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    dishdash's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    I would like everyone to refrain from addressing others (whether they be Muslim or not) with insultive terminologies.


    Nahid


    It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument.

    At least we have all acknowledged that you’re not trying to elevate your status to the likes of knowledgeable scholars.

    Although your statement is correct you phrased it poorly, a flaw which could cause anyone to fall into the wrong pit really. Everyone of us as muslims should acquire knowledge. There is an element of choice in the matter, after all we are beings with free-will and thus everything we do has a degree of choice.

    I do not recall any scholar saying that they were perfect. Thus it would be idiotic (to phrase it clumsily) for us to even think that these scholars attributed themselves to being perfected. One should not pour words into others mouth.

    Ancient experts of the Quran are not the end of the line and no one has said that but rather we can not demolish their work simply because it does not quite fit in with our new 'modern' ways of life.

    You baffle me with some of the commnets you make, it seems clear that you have a sweet tooth for ripping apart the likes of respected scholars and you have gone to the extent of naming Abu Hurayra (rahimullah) as being baised towards women. the implication. Ah, my only advice would be that it is best and wise for you to study Islam without holding ideologies based on what you believe should be Islam.

    Opinions are of little weight, actually opinions are insignificant and as you continue to hurl your thoughts it will be viewed lightly as you have no prove. As i stated before bring forth evidence for your spouting and all shall be fine. If you can not then say nothing.

    The doors of ijtihad are always open....open to those who have ilm (knowledge) not the next random person who has read few books here and there and is unwary of much of its interpretation.

    there aren't limited scholars, rather the contrary but because your views are shared by such small percentage that are refuted by most scholars it is dismissed. It is evident that you do limit yourself, after all, you consider the number of scholars to be limited and that does give the impression that you only seem to have eyes for small portion of scholars. As for the rest you have a yearn to dismiss them because you do not approve.

    You contradict yourself, you have done the opposite of what you have said. As for you being the only unveiled sister in the MSA sister's group then that is your choice. Don't turn up with a kufi for firstly it is designed for men and secondly you should not care about people's opinion about you. If you're not going to veil yourself for God then don't do it for humans.

    It is a rant but that does not matter....

    It is quite ironical that you preferred to ignore my post which addressed all your previous comments but skimmed to the posts that have resulted in ad hominem argument. (quoted from what i said at the beginning)

    Disagree is a word used too lightly which really means nothing in this context, be specific. I think what you meant to say is La ikraha fee deen (there is no complusion in deen). Don't be selective....that ayah which follows ayah al-kursi is alot longer. With a lot of meaning.....

    And that is how it is....don't do something for others but for the creator.

    Sabrun jameel

    Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.

    You know the answer to it but you are reluctant to face up to it.

    Respect works both ways.....you can't expect to get respect if you do not show respect in the first place. Nonetheless it is your call.

    I think that is enough talk together unless you will surprise me with evidence to support your claims.

    I would say but you have a tendescy of not returning them.
    Oh dear Pearly... I actually had a reasonable amount of respect for you from elsewhere, but you have chipped a whole hunk of it away as of this post.

    You have points aplenty here - good ones. And yet you choose the path of sledging the sister - and taking great satisfaction in doing so. Almost self-congratulatory. Hmmm... where's the love?! Where's the hikma?! Haha! At least when I do that, I try and turn it around so the lesson is taken without complete humiliation. Well, sometimes anyway.


    Nahid

    "The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

    In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

    (a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

    (b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

    (c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

    (d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

    (e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

    (f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

    (g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

    (h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

    A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

    I'd suggest having a look through this work.

    Wasalaam

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    NahidSarvy's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Peace, Silver Pearl

    I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.

    I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.

    As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.

    I have not issued any fatawâ. I have expressed my opinions in disagreement with the piece. I'm not sure what you mean about carrying down something said from your original post... I was replying to Dishdash.

    I feel I brought forth my criticisms already to what was said in ~Mu'minah~'s post. It starts with a seed and then begins to construct an argument that women and men must not mingle.

    I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

    As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.

    And excuse me, but your statement
    Those who are well versed than you have more authority than you, unless you can measure up to their level of knowledge it is wise we refrain from speaking.
    is a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.

    As for my choice of scholars, my heart moves with the tide of faith, and when I see wrongness, I listen to those who speak the truth. Claiming that we don't each make decisions about which scholars' works are more important to us is silly; we each decide, based on our faith, what we believe is true.

    I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?

    Resoundingly, the answer is no. How could it be otherwise? So I listened and read, and learned that there are scholars who are educated and disagree with modern "Islamiyyin" and other revivalist movements' lack of understanding.

    If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.

    And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.

    Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

    Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

    This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

    Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?

    So, in closing to my rambling post:
    I don't have the answers to everything in which I see problems.
    There are a diversity of scholarly opinions.
    The world isn't black & white, and looking to the Umma we must look to all of it, not just the privileged and lucky.
    Oh, and I say "Peace" instead of the Arabic because we are conversing in English and I also hate those little icon-y things, so don't be offended. Please don't, I'm not disrespecting, I'm giving and returning the greetings.

    Nahid
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

  5. #23
    NahidSarvy's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash View Post
    The danger of less-qualified individuals misunderstanding the sources and hence damaging the Shari`ah is a very real one, as was shown by the discord and strife which afflicted some early Muslims—and even some of the Companions themselves—in the period which preceded the establishment of the Orthodox Schools. Prior to Islam, entire religions had been subverted by inadequate scriptural scholarship, so it was vital that Islam be secure from a comparable fate.

    In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

    (a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;

    (b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;

    (c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];

    (d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;

    (e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;

    (f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);

    (g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;

    (h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.

    A scholar who has fulfilled these conditions can be considered a mujtahid fil-shar, and is not obliged, or even permitted, to follow an existing authoritative madhhab" - Abdel Hakim Murad in UNderstanding the 4 Madhabs.

    I'd suggest having a look through this work.
    Peace, Dishdash.

    I am aware of those constraints. It is hard to find good scholars!

    I spoke of a day I might write something of worth, but what we really need is a new generation. By this, I meant that someday, I might have something useful to say in a coherent manner, but that deep scholarship can only be learned over a lifetime of committment. This is something that also tends to make people very conservative, trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking.

    I agree totally with the requirements, but there is also a place for people who have learning but are not mujtahid fi sh-shar. There are people who have useful knowledge and can write on topics intelligently and with both faith and scholastic merit. Abou el Fadl, Amina Wadud, Asma Barlas: these three have skillz, as we might say, and their contributions should not be ignored, nor should works by Muslims about their faith.

    Only a handful will ever be mujtahid fi sh-shar, but we can learn from others as well. The history of Islam is full of scholars who grew in wisdom and learning and became important, changing the face of Islam and the Umma.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Is your religion real when it costs you nothing and carries no risk? Is your religion real when you fatten upon it? Is your religion real when you commit atrocities in its name? Whence comes your downward degeneration from the original revelation?

  6. #24
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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash View Post
    Good post. Stay at home and none of this should ever be a problem.
    if it were that easy...lol
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    I don't think the answer to a lack of good scholars is to come to uninformed conclusions yourself. The answer is actually train to become a scholar. And yes, that is a lifetime's dedication and not something that everyone can do. May God reward the Ulema over and over... Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya. A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes


    format_quote Originally Posted by dishdash View Post
    Closeting oneself away from the dunya in your opinion makes people conservative and trapped in their books and established patterns of thinking - for me that is a protection from the fitna's of the dunya.
    People deal with fitnah in different ways.

    A true religion does not need to be synchronised with the 21st century. It is the 21st century that needs to be synchronised with a true religion.
    Agreed.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes



    Dish dash

    I did not ‘sledge’ the sister; I have nothing personal against the sister. This is not a humiliation quarters and that was not the intention of my post.


    Nahid

    Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.


    I am not an Arabic speaker, so I say "Peace". I could say, "Peace be upon you and the mercy of God and blessing!" but it takes a long time to type. There is no disrespect here.



    I must admit, I have never had anyone criticise me for saying "Peace!" online before rather than typing in a pre-written Arabic phrase.
    Peace and blessings be upon you too.

    As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.



    As for ad hominem attacks, I have not made any. I am not showing disrespect by disagreeing. I also did not say scholars claimed to be infallible, but they are often treated as such by modern Muslims.


    You’re quite right, I did not accuse you of such thing, rather if you look at my previous post I said that others resulted in ad hominem attack.

    I will not disagree with you that some Muslims do make out scholars to be infallible but the errors of Muslims should not surprise us. We are all humans, and certainly not immune to sinning.



    I criticised the argument because I disagreed that its foundation was solid. I cited several points that seemed to me to contradict what was written. That essay explicitly draws conclusions from evidence, and I do not agree with the train of thinking. Derail the train and the conclusions are not correct.

    As for the bit about my opinions, am I not allowed to criticise what I see as a problem without giving a long and dedicated fatwa to replace it? I can see a problem even if I cannot provide all the answers I raise. This is why this is a forum - so we can talk about things.
    It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

    Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.



    And excuse me, but your statementis a thinly-veiled "sit down and shut up". I am allowed to comment on Islam as much as every other person on this forum; just because there is a chorus that I don't always fit into doesn't make me wrong, only different.
    There was not a subtle double standard behind my statement; it is for the benefit of both of us. I would not challenge you in something I did not know and thus it is stupid of us to challenge scholars when we do not acquire the same level of ilm. I did not mean for my words to come across as being harsh.





    I move from my experiences as a Muslim woman. I have already said I read a wide variety of texts, and that I have found that certain scholars - no matter that they are a minority - speak to my heart and head. I have experienced sexism in mosques. I have seen un-Islamic cultural traditions supported by weak arguments. I have seen dissent crushed, people kicked out of mosques. These things have affected me and have made me seek out the truth of matters. Does my faith create a network of oppression?
    I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.







    If women wish to wear the veil, they should. I am not arguing that anyone should change their personal behaviours. I am, however, going to express my opinions when I see faulty reasonings or problematic rationalisations.
    No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.




    And here's my thought: the Qur'ân demands modesty and that we "lower our eyes". Let me put it in other terms: imagine we demanded our hands be wrapped in duct tape so that we don't accidentally do something wrong with them because the Qur'ân says not to do various bad things. By the same token, I do not agree that the idea of lowering the eyes and modesty means men and women cannot mix.
    Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.

    Part of this is because I ask about how the community constructs the idea of male and female.

    Okay: let's take a step back again. Imagine you are part of the community of people who are intersexed, transgendered or the like. Now tell me - which bathroom do you use?

    This is not a joke. This is a huge problem for people, and not an insignificant number of them. The whole world is not just BOYS and GIRLS. If you are lucky enough to be born without this problem, then you are fine. But many people are not. If you can't even use a bathroom safely - because you will be assaulted by police, angry boyfriends, or the men in the bathroom - how can you know who you are supposed to be avoiding?

    Maybe that's too much to handle. I challenge everyone to try to understand, though. I mean, if al-Azhar scholars and the Ayatollah Khomeini support transgendered persons in fatawâ, there must be some humanity in them, right?
    We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.


    True, nothing is ever black and white.

    Peace
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    وَاصْبِرْ وَمَا صَبْرُكَ إِلاَّ بِاللّهِ


    ما بعرف انا شو حسيت

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    Before I proceed with the post I would like to apologise, if my previous post sounded harsh in any form or shape then do forgive me sister. I did not mean to wrong you with my words and may Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) forgive me.
    Peace, Silver Pearl.

    Thank you for your kind apology; I have a thick hide but I still appreciate your thoughtfulness.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    As I’m aware of your preference now, I shall try my utmost best in the future to address you with the English translation of the salaam, sorry on the misunderstanding.
    That is most kind. Personally, I find a greeting much more sincere when uttered in the language of common discourse rather than just auto-framing one's posts with pre-set images, but I am clearly a maverick. Please continue to write as it pleases you, whether in English or in Arabic.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    It is fine to disagree with something but it is better that you have evidence to support your claim. Although I agree with most of the article, I do not agree with the use of the verse from Ahzab where it tells women to speak from behind a screen because that verse speaks about umm-al-mu’minoon only and thus it has placed out of context. We are all entitled to critise but it has to have some element of evidence behind it.

    Yes this is a forum, a discussion board but people still want evidence, human nature.
    Absolutely.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    I have seen many horrendous acts committed by muslims who try and push their manners as being Islamic. If I took Islam by the example set by the Muslims I had come across, I’d have run from Islam quicker than bolt of lightning but alhamdulillah, I know that we should not follow Islam by the example of people.
    Yes. It is faith that guides us when things are difficult.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    No harm in that, strong characteristics to have but those opinions need evidence especially when you’re justifying your opinions about seeing something as being a faulty conclusion. Surely you can see where I am coming from.
    Yes.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    Islam is based on the Qur’an and Sunnah, it is fine for men and women to interact but on the basis that it is necessary, Going out for a moment of relaxation after work does pass as being necessary. This is to ensure that no inappropriate feelings are built and so that a haram relationship does not occur. Of course everything starts of being simple but whispering of evil thoughts never quite leave our sub conscience and when they do surface our conscience it is possible that we act upon it. Better to be save than sorry on the matter. There are certain things as humans we may not agree with but our creator knows us better than us.
    Ah, but I think there is much to discuss about what constitutes danger and how we should approach the issue of modesty and avoiding adultery.

    I would like to say I can rattle off proofs, but I can't. First, I have to leave, so I can't do it now. Second, I need to do some research, because part of this relates to the issue of the ahâdith being quoted.
    format_quote Originally Posted by Silver Pearl View Post
    We are not discussing the case of people who suffer from transgender, that issue is different and its ruling is different. I don’t know a great deal on this but I’ll try and find something. I’ll PM you it so that the topic does not divert from the main topic.
    N.B. we can start a new thread, if you'd like. You can see some information on Wikipedia about this issue here: Legal Status of Transgendered Persons in Iran.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    I'm uncomfortable with gender based segregation not just because of its impracticality and its tendency to create inferior conditions for women, but because it presents a cultural practice that originated outside an Islamic context as being an Islamic ideal, where, if one examines the Madinan paradigm, one knows that this was far from universally practiced. There were some women (e.g. the Mothers of the Believers) who were at some point secluded from society. But there are other examples, described in ahdith and referred to obliquely in the Qur'an, where women were a part of public life for religious, economic, and social reasons. People met for the purposes of doing business, pursuing education, and enjoying one another's company in public, regardless of gender. The injunctions on dress and appropriate conduct in public help to create a space where women are free from harassment as they conduct their daily lives. Barring women from public life has proved unhealthy for society, and jeapordizes a community's ability to provide safety, prosperity, and dignity for all its members.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Assalaamu Alaikum NJUSA

    I don't think anyone is denying that women are part of society. Yes indeed they play a vital part. It is we (women) who bring up new generations, it is we who are the first of teachers and we (women) are the twin halves of men.


    What is prohibited by the Law of Islam (Shari'ah) is the meeting together, mixing, and intermingling of men and women in one place, the crowding of them together, and the revealing and exposure of women to men. And there is much evidence for this and ( have posted ONLY few evidence)

    (Surat An-Nuur)

    (Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.

    And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; ....)

    (Surat An-Nuur 31).

    (... and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss)
    "Surat Al-A7zaab:59".
    (O Prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)


    Umm Salamah (May Allah be pleased with her) said that after Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said "as-Salamu ‘Alaykum wa Rahmatullah’ twice announcing the end of prayer, women would stand up and leave. He would stay for a while before leaving. Ibn Shihab said that he thought that the staying of the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) was in order for the women to be able to leave before the men who wanted to depart." Narrated by al-Bukhari under No. 793.

    Abu Dawood under No. 876 narrates the same hadith in Kitab al-Salaat under the title "Insiraaf an-Nisaa’ Qabl al-Rijaal min al-Salaah" (Departure of Women before Men after the Prayer). Ibn ‘Umar said that Allah’s Messenger (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: "We should leave this door (of the mosque) for women." Naafi’ said: "Ibn ‘Umar never again entered through that door until he died." Narrated by Abu Dawood under No. 484 in "Kitab as-Salah" under the Chapter entitled: "at-Tashdid fi Thalik".

    Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet (May peace and blessings be upon him) said: ""The best of the men’s rows is the first and the worst is the last, and the best of the women’s rows is the last and the worst in the first." Narrated by Muslim under No. 664.


    Free mixing is the root to ALL EVILS. Look at the problems of the world around us today be it the West or the East. How many stories have you heard of where a man/woman run of with her lover? How many men/women have you heard of having affairs? What is the solution to these problems?

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    Re: Mingling and Mixing of sexes



    Insha'Allaah the thread can be closed in due course, but since there has been some discussion going on, it might be better to wait until people have become clear on the issue.

    There are also some other threads relevant to the topic, please see:

    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...uidelines.html

    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ee-mixing.html

    http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...rmingling.html

    http://www.islamicboard.com/marriage...-reminder.html

    http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ite-gnder.html


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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by Daffodil View Post
    there is no necessity for brothers to pm sisters and vice versa, if its really that important they can get one of the mods to pass on the message.

    why?

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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon View Post
    why?

    Why?

    Well because there is no need for brothers to talk to sisters unless it is essential.


    Now see, that is basically one of the reasons why super mods have the right to check the P.M's between brothers/sisters..to make sure everything goes in accordance to the Shariah law as sister Labibah has stated earlier.



    Now if a sister for some reason perfers to give the message to a brother via a mod then by all means she is enable to do so.



    Infact, this is one of the better choices then directly communicating to a brother, in my opinon.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Do your charity in the name of Da'wah and help us out

    Insha'Allah Khair.



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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by Halima View Post
    Why?

    Well because there is no need for brothers to talk to sisters unless it is essential.


    Now see, that is basically one of the reasons why super mods have the right to check the P.M's between brothers/sisters..to make sure everything goes in accordance to the Shariah law as sister Labibah has stated earlier.



    Now if a sister for some reason perfers to give the message to a brother via a mod then by all means she is enable to do so.




    Infact, this is one of the better choices then directly communicating to a brother, in my opinon.

    so in accordance to shariah men and women only talk if essential, can you not control yourself? what is the reason for this law?

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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    what is the reason for this law?
    Attraction between the opposite sex.

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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by Aalimah View Post
    Attraction between the opposite sex.
    is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction

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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon View Post
    is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction



    feeling the attraction may cause you to act upon it unless you are prevented somehow!


    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    -
    My tears testify that i have a heart
    yet i feel me and shaytan never part
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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon View Post
    is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction
    islam gets rid of the roots of the problem, so there is very little chance left for you to commit the sin (if any...)

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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by ISDhillon View Post
    is attraction the sin or acting upon the attraction
    Well that's the whole point..to have no attraction whatsoever. Eventually, smaller things will lead to big things then you'd really have something to be concerned about.

    In accordance to the segregation of opposite sexes not only applied here on the forums, but this is everywhere unless of course that person is your mahram.

    Islam proceeds to prevent something like that from getting into something bigger. A simple scenario is attraction.


    If you keep on writing to the person that you are attracted to that definetly wouldn't help the situation..because there has to be a boundary and that is NOT writing to the opposite sex for unnecessary reasons.
    Mingling and Mixing of sexes

    Do your charity in the name of Da'wah and help us out

    Insha'Allah Khair.



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    Re: LI Forums your opinions

    format_quote Originally Posted by Halima View Post
    Well that's the whole point..to have no attraction whatsoever. Eventually, smaller things will lead to big things then you'd really have something to be concerned about.

    In accordance to the segregation of opposite sexes not only applied here on the forums, but this is everywhere unless of course that person is your mahram.

    Islam proceeds to prevent something like that from getting into something bigger. A simple scenario is attraction.


    If you keep on writing to the person that you are attracted to that definetly wouldn't help the situation..because there has to be a boundary and that is NOT writing to the opposite sex for unnecessary reasons.

    this must happen only in isalm because normally in society people interact and are quite responsible when acting upon their feelings, it is sad that you cannot exercise self-governance. as for islam pre-empting the possibility of attraction, then segregation is in itself half-baked best not have children at all cos one way or another you will still be attracted to someone, and what of lesbians what if they feel attracted how you gonna solve that one?, anyhows attraction is healthy and a part of life a person should embrace all things and live in the moment this is called living, this does not mean you act upon them when you love someone you can embrace that love and let it well-up in youre whole being, being imbued with such natural emotions is what makes us who we are, denying them is not abiding by the will of god, the purest one is one who shines like a radiant pearl whilst situated in the midst of filth, if you cannot do that, then you must live enslaved.:thankyou:


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