There is a general consensus in the Muslim world that Slavery is allowed though not encouraged in Islam.
Slavery is seen and you too would agree is unjust and a gross voilation of human Rights!! But Islam allows it. How do you deal with this moral dilemma.
Opinions are welcomed but if you are thinking of copy pasting something from some webpage - PLEASE DONT - just post the links.
Last edited by Muhammad; 07-13-2006 at 04:29 PM.
Reason: posts smerged
Weren't they allowed to castrate them and turn them into eunichs? ouch!
I searched the Hadith and I found that there was one eunuch but I don't think he was allowed to be castrated, perhaps itwas just the way he was from the days of ignorance, it obviousy wasn't too clear about it...
p.s Ansar
Your point being The spread of Islam created new slave?
No. In the first generation of Muslims, when Islam was only in Hijaz, there would be a certain amount of domestic slaves. By the time of the second generation, Islam would have spread past Syria, Persia, and Africa, so all those slaves in those countries would have come under Muslim rule. No new slaves were created, but existing slaves in other countries came under the Islamic state. Your claim was that if there were X number of slaves in the first generation, then by the 4th generation, if no slaves were taken from the war captives, then those X slaves should have all died out and slavery would be gone. But I pointed out that that wasn't correct because while there initially may have been only X slaves, the Y number of existing slaves in Syria would be added to that, plus the Z number in persia, plus the W number in africa, and so on. So you thought that by the time the 4th generation had come, all slaves in the state had been living under 4 generations of Islamic rule, which is not true for anyone except the slaves of Hijaz in the arabian peninsula.
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
I need something clarified. Slavery was abolished in Islam as society changed. Is this correct?
The Islamic ruling and laws pertaining to slavery never changed. But once they were enforced in the society, the practice of slavery was gradually being removed, as its sources were restricted and slaves were continually freed.
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
No. In the first generation of Muslims, when Islam was only in Hijaz, there would be a certain amount of domestic slaves. By the time of the second generation, Islam would have spread past Syria, Persia, and Africa, so all those slaves in those countries would have come under Muslim rule. No new slaves were created, but existing slaves in other countries came under the Islamic state. Your claim was that if there were X number of slaves in the first generation, then by the 4th generation, if no slaves were taken from the war captives, then those X slaves should have all died out and slavery would be gone. But I pointed out that that wasn't correct because while there initially may have been only X slaves, the Y number of existing slaves in Syria would be added to that, plus the Z number in persia, plus the W number in africa, and so on. So you thought that by the time the 4th generation had come, all slaves in the state had been living under 4 generations of Islamic rule, which is not true for anyone except the slaves of Hijaz in the arabian peninsula.
The Islamic ruling and laws pertaining to slavery never changed. But once they were enforced in the society, the practice of slavery was gradually being removed, as its sources were restricted and slaves were continually freed.
What do you have to say about the castrating and turning into eunuchs, I don't really know how that conclusion comes to be from such a smal Hadith but what do you have to say about it? Just curious.
The Islamic ruling and laws pertaining to slavery never changed.
i'm not sure i get it...today, Islamic law doesn't allow slavery? Right?
Can someone give me time when slavery was abolished is Muslim countries? Some at least....
This is not about Islam but about slavery. Sad to see it;s still there
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
i'm not sure i get it...today, Islamic law doesn't allow slavery? Right?
Can someone give me time when slavery was abolished is Muslim countries? Some at least....
This is not about Islam but about slavery. Sad to see it;s still there
I've known about this and it pisses and saddens me when people say it is abolished
There is a general consensus in the Muslim world that Slavery is allowed though not encouraged in Islam.
Slavery is seen and you too would agree is unjust and a gross voilation of human Rights!! But Islam allows it. How do you deal with this moral dilemma.
assalaamu alaykum,
Allah and his messenger (saws) says slavery is allowed, not only that but Muhammad (saws) owned slaves, took slaves in battle and war and this was the practice of all the early muslims.
now where you get the idea that slavery is discouraged in islam?
dont know if you read a different seerah to the one i did but slavery is permissable in islam and it is quite allowable for the mujahadeen to take slaves after a battle or during war and i do not see any discouragement in that and plenty of good in it as it is a sunnah of our beloved prophet Muhammad (saws).
good enough for him then good enough for me, you get me?
what we can say is catagorically not allowed is the mistreatement of slaves and this is also clearly seen from the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad (saws) where he orders a slave girl be freed just because her master slaps her.
the slaves at that time would also be fed the same food, wear the same clothes and live in simular conditions to their master so when we have this vision of slavery and imagine it to be something akin to the worst types of slavery such as that seen in the caribbean and the americas then this is not the slavery from the sunnah and this is gross oppression that as muslims we would need to help free such people.
but if it is the slavery as seen in the prophet's (saws) times then such things are allowed and is a sunnah also.
if i ever went in the path of Allah and the Amir of that expedition gave out slaves as part of the booty then i would have no problems with that and i have no problems with other muslims practicing the limited form of slavery with rights for the slaves as seen in the example of the prophet Muhammad (saws) and the righteous generations.
Allah and his messenger (saws) says slavery is allowed, not only that but Muhammad (saws) owned slaves, took slaves in battle and war and this was the practice of all the early muslims.
now where you get the idea that slavery is discouraged in islam?
dont know if you read a different seerah to the one i did but slavery is permissable in islam and it is quite allowable for the mujahadeen to take slaves after a battle or during war and i do not see any discouragement in that and plenty of good in it as it is a sunnah of our beloved prophet Muhammad (saws).
good enough for him then good enough for me, you get me?
what we can say is catagorically not allowed is the mistreatement of slaves and this is also clearly seen from the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad (saws) where he orders a slave girl be freed just because her master slaps her.
the slaves at that time would also be fed the same food, wear the same clothes and live in simular conditions to their master so when we have this vision of slavery and imagine it to be something akin to the worst types of slavery such as that seen in the caribbean and the americas then this is not the slavery from the sunnah and this is gross oppression that as muslims we would need to help free such people.
but if it is the slavery as seen in the prophet's (saws) times then such things are allowed and is a sunnah also.
if i ever went in the path of Allah and the Amir of that expedition gave out slaves as part of the booty then i would have no problems with that and i have no problems with other muslims practicing the limited form of slavery with rights for the slaves as seen in the example of the prophet Muhammad (saws) and the righteous generations.
assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
Your Right, Slavery is not discouraged but u have to realize that it is right in the Quran that freeing the slaves is extremely encouraged and even an order,...read this if u dont believe me
Your Right, Slavery is not discouraged but u have to realize that it is right in the Quran that freeing the slaves is extremely encouraged and even an order,...read this if u dont believe me
i dont doubt that freeing slaves is encouraged but that does not mean slavery itself is discouraged and the sunnah is to take slaves in war, this sunnah was followed by the righteous generations and best of the muslims.
we shouldnt be apologetic towards the kuffar on this issue, it is allowed by Allah and his messenger (saws) have clearly ruled it is allowed.
it is up to the amir in the war what is done with adult male captives, whether they are freed as a mercy, randsomed, enslaved or killed. as for female and child captives they cannot be killed but can be freed, randsomed or enslaved.
this was the sunnah so why do muslims say otherwise now?
why do they say wrong when Allah and his messenger have said right?
as for the person who asked what are the permissable sources of slaves,
it is only those taken whilst the muslims are in the path of Allah and the children of such people. even a women who has a slave by her master is freed on his death as a children cannot own his own mother! such a women also cannot be sold, only freed.
but the children of two slaves are also the property of their master.
our criterion of right and wrong is the Quran, the literal word of Allah and the example set to us by the prophet Muhammad (saws), then the sahabah and then the next two generations and then the pious and learned in each generation and those who travel in the path of Allah.
all such people owned and traded in slaves, took them captive during war and never said such things as have been said here about it being discouraged and their understanding is the best and purest not our own.
i dont doubt that freeing slaves is encouraged but that does not mean slavery itself is discouraged and the sunnah is to take slaves in war, this sunnah was followed by the righteous generations and best of the muslims.
we shouldnt be apologetic towards the kuffar on this issue, it is allowed by Allah and his messenger (saws) have clearly ruled it is allowed.
it is up to the amir in the war what is done with adult male captives, whether they are freed as a mercy, randsomed, enslaved or killed. as for female and child captives they cannot be killed but can be freed, randsomed or enslaved.
this was the sunnah so why do muslims say otherwise now?
why do they say wrong when Allah and his messenger have said right?
as for the person who asked what are the permissable sources of slaves,
it is only those taken whilst the muslims are in the path of Allah and the children of such people. even a women who has a slave by her master is freed on his death as a children cannot own his own mother! such a women also cannot be sold, only freed.
but the children of two slaves are also the property of their master.
our criterion of right and wrong is the Quran, the literal word of Allah and the example set to us by the prophet Muhammad (saws), then the sahabah and then the next two generations and then the pious and learned in each generation and those who travel in the path of Allah.
all such people owned and traded in slaves, took them captive during war and never said such things as have been said here about it being discouraged and their understanding is the best and purest not our own.
assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
O trust me, I despise muslims who are apologetic in matters such as slavery and apostasy or when similar things are in their own religion or apologetic at ALL but it is also Sunnah to free a slave and in certain situations itis an obligation...
i dont doubt that freeing slaves is encouraged but that does not mean slavery itself is discouraged and the sunnah is to take slaves in war, this sunnah was followed by the righteous generations and best of the muslims.
we shouldnt be apologetic towards the kuffar on this issue, it is allowed by Allah and his messenger (saws) have clearly ruled it is allowed.
it is up to the amir in the war what is done with adult male captives, whether they are freed as a mercy, randsomed, enslaved or killed. as for female and child captives they cannot be killed but can be freed, randsomed or enslaved.
this was the sunnah so why do muslims say otherwise now?
why do they say wrong when Allah and his messenger have said right?
as for the person who asked what are the permissable sources of slaves,
it is only those taken whilst the muslims are in the path of Allah and the children of such people. even a women who has a slave by her master is freed on his death as a children cannot own his own mother! such a women also cannot be sold, only freed.
but the children of two slaves are also the property of their master.
our criterion of right and wrong is the Quran, the literal word of Allah and the example set to us by the prophet Muhammad (saws), then the sahabah and then the next two generations and then the pious and learned in each generation and those who travel in the path of Allah.
all such people owned and traded in slaves, took them captive during war and never said such things as have been said here about it being discouraged and their understanding is the best and purest not our own.
assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
I also asked this previously in the thread
What do you have to say about the castrating and turning into eunuchs of slaves, I don't really know how that conclusion comes to be from such a smal Hadith but what do you have to say about it? Just curious
Since u are in domination of this thread coud u give me the answer, u or ansar...
The Islamic ruling and laws pertaining to slavery never changed. But once they were enforced in the society, the practice of slavery was gradually being removed, as its sources were restricted and slaves were continually freed.
Does this mean that slavery currently existing in Sudan and Mauritania is acceptable according to Islam?
Fear makes strangers of people who would be friends.
i dont doubt that freeing slaves is encouraged but that does not mean slavery itself is discouraged and the sunnah is to take slaves in war, this sunnah was followed by the righteous generations and best of the muslims.
we shouldnt be apologetic towards the kuffar on this issue, it is allowed by Allah and his messenger (saws) have clearly ruled it is allowed.
it is up to the amir in the war what is done with adult male captives, whether they are freed as a mercy, randsomed, enslaved or killed. as for female and child captives they cannot be killed but can be freed, randsomed or enslaved.
this was the sunnah so why do muslims say otherwise now?
why do they say wrong when Allah and his messenger have said right?
as for the person who asked what are the permissable sources of slaves,
it is only those taken whilst the muslims are in the path of Allah and the children of such people. even a women who has a slave by her master is freed on his death as a children cannot own his own mother! such a women also cannot be sold, only freed.
but the children of two slaves are also the property of their master.
our criterion of right and wrong is the Quran, the literal word of Allah and the example set to us by the prophet Muhammad (saws), then the sahabah and then the next two generations and then the pious and learned in each generation and those who travel in the path of Allah.
all such people owned and traded in slaves, took them captive during war and never said such things as have been said here about it being discouraged and their understanding is the best and purest not our own.
assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud
And also, if you compare what it says in the Qur'aan and Hadith the way it so vigorously describes the virtues of freeing slaves, it is blatantly obvious that the keeping of slaves is nothing compared to the freedom of slaves, I'm not an "apologetic" muslim but if u look at how the Qur'an puts freeing slaves along with prayer and charity in the Quran and when examining the Hadith u can tell that Muhammad (SAW) preferred their freedom, it's like this slaves were good and it was OK to have them, I read the Hadith and I know that the type of slavery that was practiced by the muslims is perfectly All right nd that it was bd for slavesto run away and all but if you also take not of how much treating them harshly was repudiated u know it was Ok...This is what I always say
It isn't an Un-Islamic Thing to Have Slaves but it is Very Islamic to free them.
What do you have to say about the castrating and turning into eunuchs, I don't really know how that conclusion comes to be from such a smal Hadith but what do you have to say about it? Just curious.
No, castration is forbidden in Islam.
format_quote Originally Posted by duskiness
i'm not sure i get it...today, Islamic law doesn't allow slavery? Right?
No, the law hasn't changed at all. The situation has changed thanks to the implementation of the law. So it is not that slavery itself has become prohibited in Islam but that the implementation of the Islamic laws have alleviated the injustices associated with slavery, restricted the sources, and encouraged and mandated the release of slaves, so that today the re-implementation of slavery is no longer feasible.
The Lajna ad-Daa'imah (Permanent Committee for Islamic Research) issued a Fatwaa wherein they were asked about the issue of slavery and why does not Islaam outlaw slavery, from their reply:
"By this it is known that the basis of slavery is only through prisoners-of-war or captives obtained when fighting Jihad against the disbelievers. Its purpose is to reform those enslaved by removing them from an evil environment and allowing them to live in a Muslim society, who will guide them to the path of goodness, save them from the clutches of evil, purify them from the filth of disbelief and misguidance, and
make them deserving of a life of freedom in which they enjoy security and peace."
They furthered stated:
"And if there are no lawful Islamic wars, then it is not permissible to establish or institute slavery."
The fatwaa team headed by Shaykh Abdullah Al-Fakeeh and Shaykh Hassan Al-Ahameed (from islamweb.net) were also asked similiar question to which they replied:
After this introduction we dare saying that Islam is the freer of slaves and the equitable with human beings. We are very proud of this. So, if the world now gets together and forbids slavery, Islam will welcome such an initiative as it fits into its aims and objectives. It is lawful for the Muslim leader to sign a convention forbidding slavery.
But this does not mean that slavery was abrogated definitely and has become legally inexistent. If the world returns back to enslaving prisoners of war, Muslims will treat their enemies equally. Full version
And in other fatwaa:
From this factual information it should be clear that slavery was to be eliminated in Islam. It is our view that when the Islaamic Shariah is practiced faithfully slavery will eventually be eliminated; we might add, so will all other acts of man's inhumanity to man. Full version
format_quote Originally Posted by searchingsoul
Does this mean that slavery currently existing in Sudan and Mauritania is acceptable according to Islam?
I'm not familiar with the situation in Sudan or Mauritania, but if Islam is to be followed there then it means that injustices associated with slavery are to be eliminated, no free persons are to be enslaved, and the freeing of slaves should be done in accordance with Islamic law. If it is economically possible and will not cause harm then it is also Islamically permissable to place an immediate ban on slavery there and mandate the freedom of all the slaves.
Regards
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]
ya about castration. there is a hadith (ill find it later) where it says (im paraphrasing) that if a master kills a slave, he will be killed and if a master castrates his slave then he will be castrated as well.
its bad, but so is minimum wage, where i live half the jobs pay dont pay enough (minimum wage or maybe a dollar more)yet to live here is expensive and this is why nyc is known for having 10 people in a 2 bedroom apartment, i think i rather be a slave in a castle, then live like that lol.
i'm not sure i get it...today, Islamic law doesn't allow slavery? Right?
Can someone give me time when slavery was abolished is Muslim countries? Some at least....
This is not about Islam but about slavery. Sad to see it;s still there
peace duskiness,
slavery as part of the islamic shariah has never been banned, freeing a slave is virtuous act and mistreating a slave could well result in that slave being freed also but slavery as part of shariah was never banned and it could well come about again.
slavery in the stictest islamic sense is nothing like the western concept of slavery, however muslims are not perfect and some have mistreated slaves in the past.
but generally in islam the slave actually has many of the rights of the family members and cannot be overworked or worked more than the owner.
i.e if i lived in an islamic land and had been given slaves as part of the war booty or had bought some then i could not work them on the land harder than i worked myself, i would feed them the same food as i ate, cloth them in the same type of clothes and see to their general welfare, i.e seeing that their spiritual and material needs were met.
even if a slave wishes to marry then the owner should help them in that also, as you can see quite a different picture to the cotton fields of alabama.
peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
slavery in the stictest islamic sense is nothing like the western concept of slavery
it is. Slavery is when one human being is owner of the other human being. You may treat them bad or good. But still you are the owner (in western or Islamic pov)
But i'm glad to hear that there are no chances now for Muslim to own slaves.
That's what i wanted to hear
n.
The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
well im not sure if Islam intended to completely abolish slavery, but i think we could all agree that Islam greatly limited and reformed slavery. It began to be used as a way to accomodate captives of war who were not ransomed, or exchanged for other POWs.
About the economic argument. I certainly dont think that its a fallacy. Just look at the reconstruction period (i think), when all slaves in the south were freed. What happened to the slaves after they were freed? they had no place to work, so they ended up going back to working for their former masters as sharecroppers. their condition was pretty much the same as before when they were slaves. It wasnt untill the 1960s that African Americans were able to gain equal rights. Also the south's economy was devistated, because they had no one to replace all the slaves that used to work for them. Hopefully now its clear that the wholesale freeing of slaves would have been devistating for the early muslim community, for both the masters and the slaves.
Also, please dont argue that people own other people, therefor slavery is completely wrong. You cant think that way, because slavery is not the same in any two places. If you asked anyone in the 7th century, even slaves, they wouldnt have seen anything strange about it, it was a completely natural part of life. The slaves in Rome viewed slavery more as a misfortune, by the will of the gods rather than as an evil.
As you hopefully have already read, slaves were treated as any other humans. Muhammad pbuh said that you should not call your slave "slave", but rather "son", "daughter", "brother or "sister". Umar (r) would take turns with his slave riding the same camel. Slavery was usually only temporary and slaves and ex-slaves would often go on to achieve great things. I think this is a much better way to accomodate captives of war compared to what other nations have done and still do today.
If there are any brothers or sisters that are confused about this matter, they should just read the examples of our prophet(saw). After all he is the instructions of the Noble Qur'an personified. enough said.
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