A person who is married and committed adultery is subjected to this punishment, right? Will he/she will be subjected to the eternal punishment as well even if the person is punished here according to the Sharia law?
And, can a community practice these laws in a democratic or secular country...
A person who is married and committed adultery is subjected to this punishment, right? Will he/she will be subjected to the eternal punishment as well even if the person is punished here according to the Sharia law?
And, can a community practice these laws in a democratic or secular country...
No he or she will not be subjected to punishment for that sin in hereafter. And if she or he ask forgiveness the Allah (swt) can also forgive.
Does Sharia law exist in democratic or secular country? (You will find the answer to be NO then the community can't practice this.)
Also punishments are only carried and issued out by the state not the community (or family members or tribes). Muslims are prohibited to take the law into their own hands. Like idiots (honour killings which is a vile crimes that cannot be justified) that has already taken the law into their own hands as a result costing innocent people lives.
To apply this punishment you need four witnesses to the actual act of penetration who observed it from four different angles and if there is even the slightest contradiction in the most minute details of their testimony, they are punished with eighty lashes for false accusation of adultery. Thus, the implementation of the hadd punishment for zina is a practical impossibility.
What more do I say? How would 4 people see such a crime? How would anyone do such a crime in the open??
^^^I dont know if that was done unjustly. I read the couple ran away and they were caught but didn’t admit to adultery and I also read another version. Nevertheless, this did occur and the Taliban confirmed it. And disgustingly the local celebrated it.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...216476354.html
^^^This is true. This was 13 years old who was raped by these men (who order and stoned her). She then went to police station to report the crime. Some of the police happen to be the men that raped her. Hence: why they accuse her of adultery. Btw her family confirmed she was never married! So how can she be stoned when she was never married?
See why people are now questioning it. It is because people are applying the law wrongly. The woman in Iran is innocent according to Shariah. She did not confess nor was even one witness let alone four.
The majority of Muslim scholars insist that such an interpretation misses the point of the basic nature of shariah, which is intended to be related to context and carefully applied.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
Like idiots (honour killings which is a vile crimes that cannot be justified)
I thought honor killings can be justified, earlier. Personally, I would not tolerate if my sister elopes with a kaffir. What am I supposed to do then, eh?
Last edited by 'Abd Al-Maajid; 09-06-2010 at 10:53 AM.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...216476354.html
^^^This is true. This was 13 years old who was raped by these men (who order and stoned her). She then went to police station to report the crime. Some of the police happen to be the men that raped her. Hence: why they accuse her of adultery. Btw her family confirmed she was never married! So how can she be stoned when she was never married?
This is completely non-islamic. A raped woman cannot be stoned anyway, and if she was not married, there is no question of this!
I thought honor killings can be justified, earlier. Personally, I would not tolerate if my sister elopes with a kaffir. What am I supposed to do then, eh?
Please tell me you are joking? I wonder would you behave in similar manner if it was your brother. Let just say he get together with Sikh or Christian women who is not chaste?
(PS. Honour killings is NEVER justified. It is a disgusting practice period.)
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
I thought honor killings can be justified, earlier.
format_quote Originally Posted by sweet106
Please tell me you are joking? I wonder would you behave in similar manner if it was your brother. Let just say he get together with Sikh or Christian women who is not chaste?
(PS. Honour killings is NEVER justified. It is a disgusting practice period.)
I never said that I support honor killings or these acts can be justified. Those were my thoughts when I was not mature enough. 'Honor killing are jahalat and people practicing it are Jaahil'. These are my current thoughts on Honor Killings.
format_quote Originally Posted by **muslimah**
Advise her and advice her and advice her
LOL. I don't have any sister to give any advice...
P.S. I repeat that I do not think honor killings can be ever justified. Do not neg. rep. me.
Whichever way you look at it, you have to conclude that stoning is a troubling issue.
For a start, there are authorities using this punishment and believing that they are acting within Islam, when they are clearly not using the criteria explained by Islamic scholars. How can these people be told that they have got it wrong? How can their cruel actions be prevented?
Secondly, there is the deterrent issue. If four witnesses are needed for a prosecution, then the only thing the law seems to deter is adultery and fornication in public. The scholar quoted by Ansar Al-Adl said:
It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.
So adultery will still be going on, just in private.
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Adl
It is worth noting that in the 1400 years of Islamic history, these stringent conditions have never been met even once. And due to the deterrent effect, sexual immorality is suffocated and eradicated in an Islamic society.
How can one say that sexual immorality has been "eradicated" when it is still perfectly possible for people to sin in private without fear of prosecution?
In hindsight, it is much less evil to do a sin undercover, than to do it out in the open and to declare it.
Correct me if I am wrong but isnt there a hadith saying that a prisoner should not disclose or talk about his crimes to anyone.
So adultery will still be going on, just in private.
lol I think that was the whole point?
How can these people be told that they have got it wrong? How can their cruel actions be prevented?
In my opinion, first they need to sort out the widespread poverty and overall state of their country. Then educate the local people and the government.
But we have Iran which happens to be in a better state then a lot of other countries including Somalia and Afghanistan. So I don’t know, we have to somehow figure it out I guess.
Last edited by Rhubarb Tart; 09-06-2010 at 01:08 PM.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
Maybe so. I have no doubt that the threat of stoning effectively deters people from committing adultery in public view, but does driving the action into private quarters do anything to prevent the sin from occurring?
I never said that I support honor killings or these acts can be justified. Those were my thoughts when I was not mature enough. 'Honor killing are jahalat and people practicing it are Jaahil'. These are my current thoughts on Honor Killings.
LOL. I don't have any sister to give any advice...
P.S. I repeat that I do not think honor killings can be ever justified. Do not neg. rep. me.
Sorry
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
Maybe so. I have no doubt that the threat of stoning effectively deters people from committing adultery in public view, but does driving the action into private quarters do anything to prevent the sin from occurring?
Peace
no it doesnt.
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Help your brother, whether he is an oppressor or he is an oppressed one.." [Bukhaari].
So on the one hand we have a punishment that seems almost impossible to apply correctly, given the slim chance of having four witnesses, and which acts as a deterrent for an action that is unlikely to happen anyway (i.e. public adultery), but which on the other hand makes it possible for corrupt authorities to carry out brutal executions under the pretense that they are doing the will of Allah. How could an omniscient being come up with such a damaging and impractical idea?
How can one say that sexual immorality has been "eradicated" when it is still perfectly possible for people to sin in private without fear of prosecution?
It may be that people commit sin in the privacy of their homes but the fact remains that there would be a deterrent on a societal level. For example, consider the following acts that occur nowadays which people are very desensitized to and wouldn't usually bat an eyelid about:
- pornography
- kissing/cuddling in public
- use of (usually female) human body as an advertising tool (basically selling oneself)
- nudism
These things are immoral in Islam and even according to other religions/cultures. They involve fornication or draw near to it. These kinds of things would never happen in a state where stoning is a punishment for such a crime.
Can you imagine a muslim film-maker putting an ad out in the local paper wanting to cast people for a porno?
Likewise for the other three examples (cuddling, advert/modelling, nudism). Nobody would dare do these things in public due to the implications.
Even if people go underground and do their sins, at least the innocence of society is maintained. So from that perspective, I can agree with Ansar when he says immorality gets eradicated.
I have no doubt that the threat of stoning effectively deters people from committing adultery in public view, but does driving the action into private quarters do anything to prevent the sin from occurring?
Probably not. I would argue more for deterrence against changes in the collective public opinion on sexual morality.
but which on the other hand makes it possible for corrupt authorities to carry out brutal executions under the pretense that they are doing the will of Allah. How could an omniscient being come up with such a damaging and impractical idea?
He has also given man the know-how to create nuclear bombs (obviously not in revelation but via inspiration, as nothing happens without the will of Allah). A device that has the potential to destroy much of the planet and humanity. One could argue the same as you did for this example too. I.e Why would an Omniscient being allow something so damaging to come into existence that people could use in the wrong way.
A fundamental premise in Islam is that people are here to be tested.
If people choose to abuse and thereby end up failing the test, there will be punishment.
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