Apostasy in Islam

**Skywalker** · 01-19-2007

I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately, and done some research as well, and I'd like to take other people's opinions to see what they.

We all know that the Shariah ruling for leaving Islam after being a Muslim is death. The problem is that everybody takes that as a given, and not many people actually think about why it's like that. I did a bit of thinking on this subject, and my personal opinion is that this ruling in the Shariah is wrong. In other words, I feel that the Qur'an and Sunnah have been misinterpreted and this ruling is based on that misinterpretation.

While most big sheikhs are in total agreement that the apostate should be killed, a few others think as I do, that they should not. Here are my reasons:

1) The Qur'an is very specific about capital punishment for various crimes, yet on the subject of apostasy, it does not say anything about how apostates should be punished.

2) The Qur'an mentions in several instances that those who believe and then disbelive, or those who reject their faith, that they would be punished by ALLAH in this life and the next. Therefore, if Allah has reserved the right to punish them for Himself, who are we to take that right away? Allah does not need our help in punishing them.

3) The Qur'an mentions that there is no compulsion in religion. If you tell a Muslim who wants to leave Islam that he will die if he left, wouldn't that be compulsion?

4) If a person leaves Islam and decided 20 years later that he made a mistake and decides to go back to it, he would not be able to do so if he has been executed. Therefore, executing someone who has the potential to become a Muslim again takes away their chance of becoming Muslim again, and takes away their chance of entering paradise. And who are we to deny someone paradise?

In conclusion, the Qur'an and common logic state that the punishment to apostates will come only from Allah, and that men should not have anything to with a person's choice in faith.

As for the many hadiths that say that the Prophet (pbuh) ordered people who left Islam to be killed, I have a partial explanation for that.

During that time, when Islam was nothing more than a group of people living in Medina, people who left Islam usually went to the other side and worked for them to attack the Muslims, thus making them traitors and spies. It's my belief that the Prophet (pbuh) ordered apostates at that time to be killed, not because they've made a personal decision on which religion they want, but a political decision on which side they want to fight.

That's my interpretation anyway. I hope that's a good base for the start of this discussion, which I think is going to be very interesing...

Oh and please provide Qur'an and hadith sources when possible, but common sense and logic is also welcome.

**Skywalker** · 02-12-2007

Does anybody want to give one of the questions a shot?

**MTAFFI** · 02-12-2007

skywalker

i expected something quite a bit different in this post, about your views on apostates. Having read your posts, I am impressed with your open mind and ability to question, when many just say "He who changes his religion, kill him" and believe that, that still applies today. I believe that you are correct that when that statement was made it was probably a political statement and not meant for just anyone who changes their religion. As far a jihad goes, I am going to take your advice and I will do much more research on it. When I am properly prepared I will start a post and pm you, then we will discuss that further. Also just so you know, I never quote GW, I dont agree with most things he says, and I form my own opinions based on my own knowledge and things that I have witnessed in my own life. May the force be with you skywalker, PEACE

**zaki.aumeerudy** · 02-13-2007

Originally Posted by Skywalker

Well that's a problem, isn't it? How do you know who has "true knowledge" and who doesn't?

I'm not saying that Islam is logic, I'm saying that Islam is logical. Everything in Islam makes sense when understood properly, that's why people take what they know from the Qur'an and Sunnah and sort of fill in the blanks using knowledge.

I think most people do this in their everyday life. By reading the Qur'an, the ahadeeth, the various religious books, they develop a feel for Islam, and this makes it easier to form logical Islamic decision when faced with a problem. I'm not saying that this is better than reading and memorizing, but this is what most people do in reality.

I agree that this can lead to separation and pointless debates when not properly controlled, but as long as we have official sources to turn to, there will always be someone who is "ultimately right" and has the final word on the subject.

Anyways, back to our topic; so far I'm in partial agreement with what the sheikh wrote. My initial argument was that apostates should not be killed just because they changed their religion, but because some of them presented threats to the Muslim society at that time. What the sheikh wrote coincides with what I said on the point of "if they keep it to themselves, they should not be killed." In other words, there are conditions for killing apostates, and it is not a general rule.

Here's a question though, and we can all do research on this together: To what extent can a person keep his apostasy to himself, and who is he allowed to tell about it? Family? Friends? Absolutely no one?

Another question is this: If an apostate does decide to go public with his decision, in what way(s) is this a threat to society?

qUESTION

What will happen if some muslims converted to christianity secretly and continues their dawah secretly till they become strong and now they got Media BBC News and CNN on their side that now they want to practise their religion openly , construct churches on the lan of Saudi Arabia for example.please ponder on this please

**Woodrow** · 02-13-2007

Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy

qUESTION

What will happen if some muslims converted to christianity secretly and continues their dawah secretly till they become strong and now they got Media BBC News and CNN on their side that now they want to practise their religion openly , construct churches on the lan of Saudi Arabia for example.please ponder on this please

It seems that if they are truly successful at practicing their religion secretly, they would have some difficulty in building up a strong enough backing to interest the media.

Now let us assume that some how they did manage to do that. Who really cares what the media does? Is Saudi Arabia based on Public opinion or popularity? What new information could the media offer that the world does not already know? Don't the majority of Christian organizations already know that Saudi does not permit the building of Churches or allow the open practice of any religion other than Islam?

I don't see where the media has come to the conclusion that those stories would sell advertising space. The media is only interested in stories that increase circulation.

**zaki.aumeerudy** · 02-13-2007

Originally Posted by Woodrow

It seems that if they are truly successful at practicing their religion secretly, they would have some difficulty in building up a strong enough backing to interest the media.

Now let us assume that some how they did manage to do that. Who really cares what the media does? Is Saudi Arabia based on Public opinion or popularity? What new information could the media offer that the world does not already know? Don't the majority of Christian organizations already know that Saudi does not permit the building of Churches or allow the open practice of any religion other than Islam?

I don't see where the media has come to the conclusion that those stories would sell advertising space. The media is only interested in stories that increase circulation.

this is already happening actually in pakistan

**Woodrow** · 02-13-2007

Originally Posted by zaki.aumeerudy

this is already happening actually in pakistan

I have yet to see where it has been making any national news here in the US.

**snakelegs** · 02-13-2007

changing your religion and trying to convert others to your new religion are 2 different things.

**Skywalker** · 02-15-2007

Originally Posted by MTAFFI

i expected something quite a bit different in this post, about your views on apostates. Having read your posts, I am impressed with your open mind and ability to question, when many just say "He who changes his religion, kill him" and believe that, that still applies today. I believe that you are correct that when that statement was made it was probably a political statement and not meant for just anyone who changes their religion.

Thanks, and the reason why I made this thread is to find out the truth about this subject. I think questioning certain things around you makes you a stronger believer, but as we all know, excessive questioning can be quite harmful. I tried my best in this thread to keep this aspect under control and to the point.

As far a jihad goes, I am going to take your advice and I will do much more research on it. When I am properly prepared I will start a post and pm you, then we will discuss that further. Also just so you know, I never quote GW, I dont agree with most things he says, and I form my own opinions based on my own knowledge and things that I have witnessed in my own life. May the force be with you skywalker, PEACE

Sure thing MTAFFI, I'll do my own research on the subject as well insha-Allah, and I'd be glad to go into another "open-minded" thread

Originally Posted by zaki

What will happen if some muslims converted to christianity secretly and continues their dawah secretly till they become strong and now they got Media BBC News and CNN on their side that now they want to practise their religion openly , construct churches on the lan of Saudi Arabia for example.please ponder on this

Well, according to the fatwa that I posted, there's nothing you can do about secretive apostates, just as the Prophet (pbuh) used to know hypocrites around him and didn't do anything to them.

As for Saudi Arabia, I'm actually surprised that non-Muslims aren't allowed to openly practice their religion there. I mean, is that even Islamic? Doesn't Sharia allow for non-Muslims to practice their religion as long as they pay the jizya?

I think I've come to a logical conclusion in my mind about the apostasy issue. I started this thread saying how apostates should not be killed because of simply changing their religion, and that they were only killed at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) because of political reasons. Well, the fatwa that we got was not far off, in that people who apostate in secret are ok, but those that come out and openly publicize it should be killed.

I started this thread under the false pretense that the fatwa for killing apostates was conditionless, and I think a lot of the people that took part in this thread so far had the same idea.

The thing that we've learned here is that there are conditions for killing apostates, which also means that there are different levels of apostasy. This is something that I think is hard for non-Muslims to understand since they're not used to the idea of a religion being a way of life. To them, apostasy is apostasy whether you make it public or not because religion isn't a way of life; but to us, where religion is the very thing that we live for, anything that jeopardizes that stability is a threat, and anything that seeks to destroy it is an enemy. When an apostate speaks out against Islam within Islamic borders, he's making himself its enemy.

Comments?

Also, any luck in trying to answer the two questions that I posted earlier?

**wilberhum** · 02-15-2007

This is something that I think is hard for non-Muslims to understand since they're not used to the idea of a religion being a way of life.

Oh so so wrong. The difference is most non-Muslims live in countries that beleive in freedom of religion.

**Skywalker** · 02-16-2007

Originally Posted by wilberhum

Oh so so wrong. The difference is most non-Muslims live in countries that beleive in freedom of religion.

...as do a lot of Muslims, but that's not the point. Everyone believes in freedom of religion, Muslims and non-Muslims, but the real difference is how much that religion plays a part in your life. For some people, religion is going to church on Sunday and saying a few prayers before bed, while for others it's a lot more encompassing than that. From my experience, the average Muslim lives a lot more religiously than the average non-Muslim. We don't leave our religion at the door of the mosque, but practice it in everything we do, how we do it, what we say, even what we think. That's what non-Muslims and even some Muslims who live away from Muslim countries have a hard time imagining.

**wilberhum** · 02-16-2007

Originally Posted by Skywalker

...as do a lot of Muslims, but that's not the point. Everyone believes in freedom of religion, Muslims and non-Muslims, but the real difference is how much that religion plays a part in your life. For some people, religion is going to church on Sunday and saying a few prayers before bed, while for others it's a lot more encompassing than that. From my experience, the average Muslim lives a lot more religiously than the average non-Muslim. We don't leave our religion at the door of the mosque, but practice it in everything we do, how we do it, what we say, even what we think. That's what non-Muslims and even some Muslims who live away from Muslim countries have a hard time imagining.

So if religion is more important to you than some one else, it is OK to kill them for changeing there religion. I beginning to understand your form of religious freedon. Every one is free to believe in your religion.

**zaki.aumeerudy** · 02-16-2007

Originally Posted by Skywalker

...as do a lot of Muslims, but that's not the point. Everyone believes in freedom of religion, Muslims and non-Muslims, but the real difference is how much that religion plays a part in your life. For some people, religion is going to church on Sunday and saying a few prayers before bed, while for others it's a lot more encompassing than that. From my experience, the average Muslim lives a lot more religiously than the average non-Muslim. We don't leave our religion at the door of the mosque, but practice it in everything we do, how we do it, what we say, even what we think. That's what non-Muslims and even some Muslims who live away from Muslim countries have a hard time imagining.

u have got only one country where islamic law is applied .forget about the others

**czgibson** · 02-16-2007

Greetings,

Are reverts told that the penalty for leaving Islam is death before they join up?

Peace

**Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн** · 02-16-2007

No way, thats just cruel. Thats why no one should rush into being a Muslim. They should be sure they want too. If you really want too know, try asking some on this forum.

Peace

**czgibson** · 02-16-2007

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Tayyaba

No way, thats just cruel.

True.

Thats why no one should rush into being a Muslim.

I quite agree.

They should be sure they want too. If you really want too know, try asking some on this forum.

It would be interesting to find out how much some of the reverts here actually knew about Islam before joining up. Since being here I've seen at least one who was clearly unaware of the apostasy ruling.

Peace

**Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн** · 02-16-2007

^^Myabe u can start another thread continuing from this one. If you would really like to know, that is.

**zaki.aumeerudy** · 02-16-2007

Originally Posted by czgibson

Greetings,

Are reverts told that the penalty for leaving Islam is death before they join up?

Peace

Dirung the lifetime of the prophet a christian converted to islaam and then reconverted to christianity and then said muhammad knows nothing except what i taught him.the prophet did not kill him but said may the earth not accept his body
when the christian died ,he was buried .the next day his body went out of the earth the christian thught that theprophet and his companions did that so they dig a greater hole a nd buried him again but again his dead body was again out the next day so they thought the same thing againthe next day his body went out of so they dig a whole of immense deepness and buried him again but
the next day his body went out of the earth till they began to realise the words of the prophet and his body was left to rot on the earth a sign for human being like pharaoh ramses 2 is a sign also
i must admit u something i was christian b4

**czgibson** · 02-16-2007

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Allah in the Qur'an

He puts doubt in (the minds of) those who do not think.

I hate to take issue with Allah here, but surely doubt is only possible through the process of thought? Surely doubt actually indicates that thinking is taking place?

Must be a translation issue...

Peace

**Skywalker** · 02-16-2007

Originally Posted by wilberhum

So if religion is more important to you than some one else, it is OK to kill them for changeing there religion. I beginning to understand your form of religious freedon. Every one is free to believe in your religion.

What??? I don't get what you're trying to say nor what this has to do with what I wrote. Are you sure we're talking about the same thing? Like I said before, you cannot compel someone to become Muslim, nor can you hurt someone who leaves Islam unless his apostasy is accompanied with one of the conditions that we mentioned. In other words, a person can choose to be a Muslim or not, just follow a few simple rules when leaving Islam and that's it.

Originally Posted by czgibson

Are reverts told that the penalty for leaving Islam is death before they join up?

It depends on how much they learn when learning about Islam. Like I said before, different people need different levels of conviction to become Muslims. I think however that most of them know this rule, but I'm not sure.

I think it's also important to repeat this once again because I have a feeling you missed this; apostates are not to be killed just for changing their religion, but for publically announcing their apostasy in an Islamic state. I don't know how many Muslims actually know that, I know I sure didn't when I started this thread.

Emperor, I posted a few verses on the previous few pages that carry a similar message. This further establishes the rule that a person is free to believe what they want, just as long as they don't endanger the people around them by leading society astray.

**czgibson** · 02-16-2007

Greetings,

Originally Posted by Skywalker

I think it's also important to repeat this once again because I have a feeling you missed this; apostates are not to be killed just for changing their religion, but for publically announcing their apostasy in an Islamic state. I don't know how many Muslims actually know that, I know I sure didn't when I started this thread.

I was aware of that, yes. Apart from extreme personality-cult dictatorships, it's only in an Islamic state that such a law would even be countenanced, isn't it?

Peace