I never said Shias are not Muslims

@Saleem Khan --So in your opinion shias of the age of Hz muhaddisin were ''good shias''. It means they were good ''Muslims'' in contrast with modern age shias???O.k. Plz see the status and ''characteristics'' of Abbad bin Yaqub, and tell me how a ''good MUSLIM'' he was.Thanks

format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan

Shaykh Qardhawi was known for his mild attitude to shias he tried to unite with them. Later he regretted his actions. He said his proves there can ne no unity between sunnis (Muslims) and Shias.

Assalaamu alaikum Saleem,


(smile) Do you mean Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi? (twinkle) Because you know... he is one of the signatories of the Amman Message. Furthermore, I have read quite a few of his publications over the years, and he has been consistent on this point.

So I think perhaps your information on Al-Qaradawi's position is incorrect. (mildly) If you have evidence to the contrary, I would of course, read it with interest.


May Allah, the Knowing, Help us seek knowledge... for His Sake.

format_quote Originally Posted by Saleem Khan

Taqiyya is something which all shias practice nowadays.

You sound like an islamaphobe - they always say Muslims practice Taqiyaa. Second if you have a problem with the shia you should go and talk to them as this forum is a Sunni forum - so its irrational telling us "shia are not muslims" as non of them are here to defend your accusations or probably will not even be allowed to on this forum.

Assalaamu alaikum Najimuddin,


(smile) Thank you for your post. I appreciate the effort you put into it.

(sigh) To be honest though, I felt grief when I read it. I know Yusuf Al-Qaradawi from the books and pamphlets he wrote, that I had the pleasure to read. (smile) And truly, they were a joy. I remember being a young mother and avidly reading while nursing my little ones. It was the only time I got to relax from the stresses of caring for young children: a drowsy baby and a book that opened doors in my heart and mind. (smile) I was so impressed by him, that I tried to model myself on his approach. He was a teacher to me. (smile) Though I have never met him, and he does not know that I exist.

(mildly) So the idea that Sheikh Al-Qaradawi could have so changed his position and style was deeply painful. The person that I knew strove to build bridges. Was polite. Humble. Careful. Wanted to open doors of discussion and understanding. Wanted to help the ordinary person to gain deeper understandings of Islam. (smile) A lot of good and positive things.

So I read the links you gave above, Najimuddin. And I researched on the internet. And the plethora of information was temporarily overwhelming.

(smile) But I decided to focus on the essentials. A lot of what is on the internet is noise and distortion. (pensively) So after reading and reflecting, I do not think that the Sheikh's signing of the Amman Message was realpolitik. I think it was the extension of his deeply and long-held beliefs.

I can understand that he feels upset and betrayed by certain Shia. I suspect he feels this way about certain Sunnis, too. (mildly) But I do not see him saying that Shia are non-Muslims. Only that he feels the need to distance from certain people.

(smile) You know, I used to know a Shia family years ago (before both they and we moved away). And they were decent people. I was curious about their beliefs, so I asked them to lend me some books on their beliefs. The lady gave me a stack of children's books that enunciated their core beliefs, and that she had used to educate her own children. These were very interesting. At the core, the Shia believe in God. In His Unicity. They believe that the Prophet Muhammed (SAWS) was His Prophet. They believe that the Qur'an is His Word. And these are core Muslim beliefs. However, they also believe that a series of leaders after the Prophet (SAWS), whom they call the Infallibles, were Guided by God, and that therefore, whatever they pronounced was True. And this I had an issue with. I do not believe this.

(smile) However, Sunnis can have disagreements, too. (mildly) Indeed, I have read that there was a time when people following different Schools of Islamic Law tended to consider one another as non-Muslims. That nowadays the majority of Sunni Muslims are respecting one another's differences is, I believe, a good thing. The less we fight about differences in interpretation, and the more we focus on behaving well and building just societies, the better, in my opinion.

(smile) So what is Al-Qaradawi saying about the Shia? From what I can tell, he feels unease about the intentions of certain Shia leaders and the groups they lead. He (very rightly, in my opinion) condemns the terrible excesses by the régime in Syria, and those Shia groups that are backing this régime. But he does not exclude the Shia, as a group, from the fold of Believers.

(smile) I read an Islamic proverb many years ago. It said something to the effect that we should treat other people as if they could be the people of Paradise. And that we should look to ourselves as not sure of being of the people of Paradise. And this seems to me very wise advice. Because if we do this, it seems to me, then we will likely behave much more humbly and correctly.

Not one of us knows the outcome of the Day of Judgment. Not one of us has the Complete Truth, only our fallible human interpretations. And we will be Judged on how we ourselves have behaved.

(smile) Allah, Glory to Him, the High, has Promised to Tell us about that which we have differed. So why not wait till then to find out all the answers? (smile) And why not focus our time and energies into doing what is good and Pleasing to Him while we can in this brief life? Into being concerned that we ourselves are not being the best that we can be?


May God, the Merciful and Compassionate, Forgive us for our many mistakes.

Salaam,

This seems like deja vu...

Why is it that when one points out truth, people on this forum run to mods and say ''Against the rules of the forum''? You people should start asking the question ''Who do i fear, man or Allah?''...Stop being apologetic and be hardcore. Allah does not need us, we need Him!

Al-Wala wal Bara(love what Allah loves, hate what Allah hates)

Practise that!!!...

Wa alaikum assalaam Najimuddin,


(smile) I'm not quite sure what is meant by "belief systems".

But I do know what I believe to be true. And I also know that I may be honestly mistaken. And that I try to live my life walking the best Path that I can. What others believe and try is their own Path.

(smile) I have read that there have been great and knowledgeable scholars who have been reluctant to issue fatawa, for fear of pronouncing wrongly. And that there is a tradition among Islamic scholars to acknowledge that their opponents might be correct, and they themselves incorrect, and that only Allah truly Knows. And this humility (when sincere) has touched me. I admire it.

(smile) I find that it is all too easy to get caught up in one's own truths, and to start feeling the silky tendrils of self-satisfaction. And I believe this to be a very subtle ploy of Shaitan. So I prefer to try to keep an open mind to everyone around me. For while I might have a chunk of Truth, others may have contributions. That I can learn from, though not always directly.

(smile) I read a children's story many years ago, that I have read variations of over the years. Some say it is Sufi in origin, and others claim otherwise. But whatever the reality, it is a powerful story. Here it is:

Once upon a time, there were a group of mice, and they went to discover what an elephant was like. Now this elephant was in a dark room, and the mice could not see it. But they could feel it. One mouse explored the elephant's leg. And another, it's tail. A third explored it's ears, and another, it's trunk. Then the mice left the room and discussed the matter together. The first one said: an elephant is like a tree! But the second said: no, no, it is like a rope! The third one rolled it's eyes in disbelief and squeaked: what are you saying? Of course, it is like a fan! And the last mouse cried: A fan?! No, no, it is like a snake!

All the mice had an element of the whole, but none had more than a part. So who was right?

(smile) I have stated that I do not believe in Infallible Imams. Nor do I believe that God is divisible. (smile) And I have quite a few other core beliefs, that I believe are consonant with core Sunni beliefs. But I also believe that the other person I face has something to teach me. That Allah has not introduced this person into my life for no reason. That through this person, I am being given the opportunity for learning another small part of Truth. (smile) And through me, the other person has an opportunity, too.

(seriously) And it does not matter whether that person is an atheist or a Jew or a Hindu or an animist, or whatever. There is something there, precious, to learn. Allah Created us in our diversity for a reason. And I honour that. I also believe that only God can decide our fate in the Next Life, and only He can Inform us of what is True and Correct.

This thread started as an expression of the OP's personal belief that the Shia (as a whole) are not Muslims, that he put into the mouths of some recognized scholars. It is my personal belief that he is perhaps doing an injustice to people calling themselves Shia, and also to himself. I have also shown that there are recognized scholars who disagree with him.

(smile) But I do acknowledge that I might be wrong. Perhaps Saleem is right. Perhaps all Shia are not Muslims in Allah's eyes. (seriously) But I would caution that this is a serious thing to say, and one that I would not dare to say.

And I would offer that, whatever the Ultimate Truth on this question, if we believe that we are accountable for how we treat others, all others, keeping an open, loving heart for the understandings of others is a good way to help us avoid becoming smug and perhaps treating others wrongly. (sigh) Because it is a human tendency to treat those they consider as outside "their" group, in less-than-good ways. (sad) And even terrible ways.

Considering the amount of strife in the world, including amongst Muslims (or those who believe themselves to be Muslims, though others may not), I feel that throwing out blanket statements, like this one about Shias not being Muslims, does not help. Indeed, I think that it can help fuel conflicts. (mildly) Given that conflicts tend to cause an awful lot of wrongdoing and suffering on all sides... I believe that it is Pleasing to Allah, that we try to avoid conflicts as much as possible.

(smile) I hope this clarifies my position.


May Allah, the Holy, Guide us and have Mercy on us.

Assalamualaikum accroding to Sheikh Hamza Yusuf when the scholars were young(not sure if they are the ones mentioned, Rahimahullah) they made a few statements which they later pull back. Labelling people as 'Kafirs' is dangerous..

Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu Najimuddin,


(smile) When we love something greatly, we can feel large swings in emotions if we are concerned that what we love is not treated properly, or is under some sort of threat. (smile) I honour your love of Allah (SWT), His Prophet (SAWS) and His Beautiful Book.

And I am touched by your humility and sincerity. Truly, they adorn you. May God Make me a garden for such, too.


May Allah, the One Who Turns to us again and again with Forgiveness, Help us all to turn, again and again, to Him in repentance.

We do not care what others say about whatever sects

shia, sunnah, blue jinni or whatever

in short: Whoever curses the sahabah {may allah be pleased with them}and the wives of rasoolullah {peace and blessings of allah be upon him} accusing them with disbelief, put anyone in allah's place any how and worships allah in a way other than what allah and his messenger {peace and blessings of allah be upon him} taught us is not a muslim. so, stop the argument cause you will get nowhere and all what you will post farther is so and so said & so and so stated.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian

Salam sister herb. It is really interesting to me that you as a muslim living in nonmuslim society are also that easy to call millions of a group non-muslim who call themselves muslim..

I don´t see its my problem if non-Muslims call themselves as Muslims. Anyways, I can´t make them stop calling themselves what ever they like to call.

format_quote Originally Posted by StrivingforDeen

She didn't call them non muslim.

That´s true. I wrote like "If we see...".

Note the word if.

I didn´t write that we see but if we etc.